Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 4

[wetcoast]

Asking questions not asserting facts means you have major doubts.

Guilty, I do not possess the definitive list of the top 100 players all time.

Even if I did, I would be humble enough to question it and test it.

Last two bolded phrases create a major contradiction. Context is that Kelly surpassed expections as they were then the trade was made.

Whatever the expectations were of Kelly at the time of the trade they have zero relevance here.

Even if they did, they are much better examples than Kelly who was already HHOF bound from his time in Detroit.

Along the same line of reasoning AO did not.

Wrong actually, as overpass pointed out earlier Kelly didn't meet expectations in the playoffs in Detroit.

And AO was never traded but I know what you meant there.

 

[wetcoast]

If you're knocked out in the second round or earlier, it's not a positive playoff performance. It's at most a neutral one.

So a 14-11-10-21 plus 10 (in on 51% of his teams goals) round in 2010 for AO is only neutral?

We will agree to disagree then, teams get knocked out, not players.

There will be a Dman coming up later than got knocked out in the first round alot, despite having excellent performances.

Also is winning an Art Ross and not making the playoffs going to discount that trophy?

 

[Michael Farkas]

Yeah, it's a tough sell for early round only playoffs for me too...I think I will leave it at that. The numbers don't paint the same story as the game itself did...

 

[Captain Bowie]

Just voted.

Honestly I hate my vote. This was by far the hardest round. Not happy with how I voted but i couldn't find a ranking that made me happy, so did the best I could.

Kelly rose the most (by far). Jagr remained my #1. Ovechkin fell some, but still found a way to keep him right above Lafleur.

I'm right there with you. Very tough vote.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Looking back at some more footage before voting to settle some "tiebreaks", I became a little less impressed by Kelly defensively actually...I think both Potvin and Lidstrom were better defensively now. I voted accordingly.

 

[The Macho King]

Looking back at some more footage before voting to settle some "tiebreaks", I became a little less impressed by Kelly defensively actually...I think both Potvin and Lidstrom were better defensively now. I voted accordingly.

I ended up coming to the same conclusion. Also, the more I look into Potvin the more impressive he is.

 

[Captain Bowie]

Voted.

I was all over the place this week. From the last vote, Potvin, Lidstrom and Messier all rose multiple spots. Jagr and Ovechkin each fell multiple spots.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

I just finished writing a long post reviewing the evidence about Orr's impact on Esposito (something which I don't think anybody here has done in a systematic way before). Seeing as how most people have already voted (and the deadline is only in another few hours), perhaps I'll save it for Vote 5.

So, here's hoping that Esposito will still be available next round. I mean that in the sense that he doesn't deserve to be included in the final list at this point, and I also hope I didn't waste 2 hours writing that post.

 

[Captain Bowie]

I just finished writing a long post reviewing the evidence about Orr's impact on Esposito (something which I don't think anybody here has done in a systematic way before). Seeing as how most people have already voted (and the deadline is only in another few hours), perhaps I'll save it for Vote 5.

So, here's hoping that Esposito will still be available next round. I mean that in the sense that he doesn't deserve to be included in the final list at this point, and I also hope I didn't waste 2 hours writing that post.

Though I had him inside my top 5 this round, I am interested in seeing that so part of me hope he doesn't make it lol. Hopefully you are able to post it either way in the appropriate thread.

 

[Michael Farkas]

I think Espo should and will be available next round. It would be absolutely crazy (pending your evidence, I suppose...but it would have to be aggressively convincing) to have him go in right now...

I know I did my part in keeping him til next round(s)...

 

[seventieslord]

Fair enough but 2 points here.

1) Kelly played in a 6 team league and coaches didn't all deploy offensive defenseman, their role in the 50's was quite different than post Orr NHL in Lidstrom's time.

Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com

Notice that there are only 3 different players listed among the top 16 seasons from 50-57.

2) I don't know how often it happened but Kelly played some forward during his years as a defenseman, which certainly wouldn't hurt his offense.

One can say that Kelly was better offensively as a Dman than Lidstrom but the gap wasn't huge and once again scoring top of the list 5 times in Lidstrom's era has to be considered elite one would think when trying to comparing the differences in elague sizes and hw defensmen are deployed.

Also if ES scoring for Dmen was that important it sure didn't hurt Harvey in his placement, which was much worse than Lidstroms compared to the league as I recall reading earlier.

VSX is a much more indidactive tool when measuring forwards than defeman IMO, as forwards roles have always been clearly to drive offense and score goals, not as much for defenseman over the course of hockey history..

I checked Harvey's scores manually (since I don't have this in a spreadsheet yet) and he came out with 102 for a 7-year score, and 91 for a 12-year score. So it's basically the same as Lidstrom - in the margin of error.

I agree defensemen shouldn't be judged all that much on offense, especially raw numbers which are far too situation and opportunity-driven, but that's where Harvey and Lidstrom stand, in case anyone is wondering.

 

[seventieslord]

I just finished writing a long post reviewing the evidence about Orr's impact on Esposito (something which I don't think anybody here has done in a systematic way before). Seeing as how most people have already voted (and the deadline is only in another few hours), perhaps I'll save it for Vote 5.

So, here's hoping that Esposito will still be available next round. I mean that in the sense that he doesn't deserve to be included in the final list at this point, and I also hope I didn't waste 2 hours writing that post.

I can't wait for this.

 

[Canadiens1958]

I'm really not sure where I stated that 10 series was a top 10 of all time, probably because I never did.

I mentioned 3 playoffs were he was very good, 09, 10 and 18.

Yes others have thicker portfolio's but they also have some real down points in the playoffs as well.

Guys like Esposito, Lafleur, Kelly whose down seasons are getting overlooked.

The filter should be the same for all players.

Exactly, but the project is about the top, the elite not the very good.

All the down seasons are common knowledge and have been considered.

 

[wetcoast]

Exactly, but the project is about the top, the elite not the very good.

All the down seasons are common knowledge and have been considered.

Funny thing is that if one reads back on the threads, most posts propp up certain players, as if we didn't know about trophies or top scoring finishes and a lot of the posts concerning down seasons or valley get little to no response.

Guy Lafleur is the poster boy for this.

I guess the devil will be in the details (voting results).

My hot take is this, guys with lots of SC will do well in the voting this round again.

 

[Michael Farkas]

That's not a hot take...we don't have a choice but to take guys with lots of Stanley Cups this round. There's, what, one really relevant player that doesn't have three this round?

 

[wetcoast]

That's not a hot take...we don't have a choice but to take guys with lots of Stanley Cups this round. There's, what, one really relevant player that doesn't have three this round?

The phrase, "face of a dynasty" and "leader of a dynasty", has been thrown around for several players this round, 3 come to mind, when in fact in all 3 cases it was pretty clear there were 3-5 guys driving those team buses.

In retrospect my hot take needs refinement and I might leave that for younger folks.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

That's not a hot take...we don't have a choice but to take guys with lots of Stanley Cups this round. There's, what, one really relevant player that doesn't have three this round?

Jagr, Esposito, Ovechkin, Mikita?

 

[Michael Farkas]

Right. Jagr is probably the only real relevant player this round...at least in my eyes. The rest of those guys are a ways from being useful yet...

 

[Michael Farkas]

The phrase, "face of a dynasty"

I don't really get caught up in all that noise...it's not a necessary distinction when we have the video to prove or disprove the readables...

 

[Captain Bowie]

Don't mind me, I'm just a little slow.

 

[Dr John Carlson]

Voted. I think Kelly and Jagr should go this round. Nighbor is my 3rd place but I can understand him not being voted in yet.

 

[Nick Hansen]

Can any one explain Esposito winning the Lindsay/Pearson during two of Orr's peak seasons?

Just doesn't jive with the legend of Orr...

 

[quoipourquoi]

29 ballots cast so far. Fantastic participation so far in this project! Might need some tiebreakers from our remaining three participants: @Iceman @TheGeneral @JoseTheodore2002

 

[Michael Farkas]

Can any one explain Esposito winning the Lindsay/Pearson during two of Orr's peak seasons?

Just doesn't jive with the legend of Orr...

Players aren't a reliable source for award voting.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

Right. Jagr is probably the only real relevant player this round...at least in my eyes. The rest of those guys are a ways from being useful yet...

A number of voters seem to have felt this was a very difficult group to sort out (myself included). So for many they were all at least relevant.