Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 21

Kyle McMahon

Registered User
May 10, 2006
13,301
4,354
Francis probably was never a top 5 or top 10 player in the world but he was better offensively than Keon and a very good defensive player as well.

Of course Francis gets a it lost in the offensive onslaught from player from Europe.

Comparing Francis and Keon in an apples to apples scenario would have Francis looking really good no doubt.

I'm not actually sure if Hartford/Carolina Francis was any better than Keon offensively. 80-90 point seasons in the 1980s just aren't anything special. Keon's 55 point seasons playing 10 less games in a much lower scoring environment with less PP time are arguably superior from an offensive standpoint. Pittsburgh Francis, sure, but it's hard to ignore the inflationary effect of Jagr on his wing and Lemieux on the PP on his numbers. Francis was a good defensive player, but Keon was one of the best of all time. I don't see this comparison as particularly close to be honest, though of course I'm higher on Keon than most and would have voted him in several rounds sooner than we did.
 

Canadiens1958

Registered User
Nov 30, 2007
20,020
2,779
Lake Memphremagog, QC.
when john bucyk retired he was 4th all time in points behind howe, esposito, and mikita; 4th all time in goals behind howe, esposito, and hull; and 4th all time in assists behind howe, mikita, and delvecchio.

that's your basic context for ron francis right?

very good but unspectacular and ultimately non-needle-moving player toiling away on a weak team for a decade, very good two-way player who did a lot of little things, finds himself on a superteam that won two cups but should have had more with two of the 5-10 greatest offensive players of all time, puts up some bananas point totals, peaks late, all-round game gets overrated due to his great fundamentals and being the wise old voice of reason on teams with... some mercurial personalities, plays forever because he was always slow to begin with and lived off his hockey IQ, walks away with a bunch of lady byngs.

Still preferable to the Dionne, Bathgate,types.
 
  • Like
Reactions: vadim sharifijanov

streitz

Registered User
Jul 22, 2018
1,258
319
I don't really follow these threads but Stastny and Savard are by far the 2 best skaters on this list.


Don't know where the goalies would match up, hard to compare them for me.
 

GlitchMarner

Typical malevolent, devious & vile Maple Leafs fan
Jul 21, 2017
9,959
6,686
Brampton, ON
Ron Francis:

1981-1990:

13th in points
Tied for 17th in points per game (min. 200 GP)
Ninth and tenth in Hart voting
Fifth in Selke voting one season
Never top ten in points
-52


Eric Staal:

2006-2013:

Tenth in points
Tied for 20th in points per game (min. 200 GP)
Fourth and 23rd in Hart voting
16th in Selke voting one season
Sixth and seventh in points
-22


Eh.
 
  • Like
Reactions: seventieslord

ChiTownPhilly

Not Too Soft
Feb 23, 2010
2,105
1,391
AnyWorld/I'mWelcomeTo
Some "quick-take" thoughts, based roughly on stream-of-consciousness...
Jarome Iginla- still reeling a bit by the judgement, evidently on the part of many, that Martin St Louis was a superior option. Even accepting that premise, can Iginla be that far behind (in your minds) as to not deserve immediate consideration now?!?
Valeri Vasiliev- this will take some time. Bear with me. Using the twin-streams of "start of double-up expansion" [E-12] and early '70s Soviet emergence on the World stage as starting points, we have advanced 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10 70s-to-present Canadian Defensemen, and one Russian Defenseman. And Canadian Defenseman 11 recently out-polled Russian Defenseman 2, comfortably. Really? I'm thinking "if true, it's a wonder the Russians ever got the puck out of their zone once another team came in with possession."
Bernie Parent- a good time for the stock reminder that Parent, as much as anyone, put the "bully" in The Bullies. Flyers go short-handed? No worries, our all-world Goaltender will stone you on your Power Play- and you'll still be sore (and defeated) in the morning. No wonder Philly Flu was a thing.

Jíři Holeček- I DON'T think our Panel made a mistake by nominating him ahead of Martinec.

Vladimir Martinec- one Czechoslovak league scoring title, and one league championship. I had him on my List, sure-- and we've advanced less optimal players already. But I'm not so sure about this one right now...

Sid Abel- nobody's really presented a metric case for him- for OR against. [Especially curious how he's show up on an "equalize for special-teams" VsX- you know, the one that showed that St Louis 7 & 10 year VsX edge over Iginla more than disappeared when we took Power Plays out of the equation- as the Panel let out a consensus-yawn over the presentation.]
Toe Blake- just no buzz around the guy. Just feels like he deserves better.
Alexander Maltsev- we've pointed out that he received relevant SPOTY-support starting at age 19. Too bad for him. The Panel hasn't been particularly impressed by precocity since sometime late in Vote 1, it seems. I'll add, however, that it hasn't been since Vote 1 and the early Lemieux days that we've had a Center quite as saddled with marginal Wingers in domestic league play. Also, how much credit do we want to give for the C/RW flexibility? Most likely nominee to move up my ballot.
Eddie Gerard- Starts in the poll-position, based on last Round's voting. He wasn't the best player on his team. Nor the second-best. Nor the third-best. I guess he was the fourth-best. Kind of like a + version of Serge Savard. Again, we could do worse- like advance anyone else not yet mentioned in this post.
Tony Esposito- rounds out my upper-half. What- more than three-quarters of an NHLer's play is in the Regular Season? If he just could have shown something in the post-season...
 

Nick Hansen

Registered User
Sep 28, 2017
3,122
2,652
Ron Francis:

1982-1990:

13th in points
Tied for 17th in points per game (min. 200 GP)
Ninth and tenth in Hart voting
Fifth in Selke voting one season
Never top ten in points
-52


Eric Staal:

2006-2013:

Tenth in points
Tied for 20th in points per game (min. 200 GP)
Fourth and 23rd in Hart voting
16th in Selke voting one season
Sixth and seventh in points
-22


Eh.

Scoring 81/82 to 89/90

Gretzky
Kurri
Stastny
Savard
Hawerchuk
Coffey
Messier
Lemieux
Goulet
Nicholls
Anderson
Federko

Francis

---
05/06 to 12/13

Ovechkin
Thornton
Crosby
St Louis
H Sedin
Datsyuk
Kovalchuk
D. Sedin
Iginla

E Staal
 
Last edited:
  • Like
Reactions: GlitchMarner

GlitchMarner

Typical malevolent, devious & vile Maple Leafs fan
Jul 21, 2017
9,959
6,686
Brampton, ON
Scoring 81/81 to 89/90

Gretzky
Kurri
Stastny
Savard
Hawerchuk
Coffey
Messier
Lemieux
Goulet
Nicholls
Anderson
Federko

Francis

---
05/06 to 12/13

Ovechkin
Thornton
Crosby
St Louis
H Sedin
Datsyuk
Kovalchuk
D. Sedin
Iginla

E Staal

Obviously Staal really has nothing after his CAR years except that one big year with MIN whereas Francis had some big years with PIT and some solid to good years with CAR (and longevity matters), but this kind of helps put into perspective how much Francis may have benefited from Lemieux and Jagr and PIT's system.
 

BenchBrawl

Registered User
Jul 26, 2010
30,885
13,680
Eddie Gerard- Starts in the poll-position, based on last Round's voting. He wasn't the best player on his team. Nor the second-best. Nor the third-best. I guess he was the fourth-best. Kind of like a + version of Serge Savard. Again, we could do worse- like advance anyone else not yet mentioned in this post.

Eddie Gerard was most likely the 2nd best player on his team, not the 4th best.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Kyle McMahon

Michael Farkas

Celebrate 68
Jun 28, 2006
13,487
8,058
NYC
www.hockeyprospect.com
Iginla - far enough behind. Not interested.
Vasiliev - Don't believe in quotas. He wasn't good enough for me. Like the second best Calgary Flame of the Iginla era.
Parent - Could not be more irrelevant to this discussion. Two seasons, then the same team went to the Final with some kong donkey at the helm. He fell in the goalie project for a reason, there just isn't a lot there. If we're questioning guys that only have 6, 7, 8 years of success...I can't imagine how anyone has time for Bernie Parent this round...or the next, I don't know, seven...
 

Kyle McMahon

Registered User
May 10, 2006
13,301
4,354
Some "quick-take" thoughts, based roughly on stream-of-consciousness...
Jarome Iginla- still reeling a bit by the judgement, evidently on the part of many, that Martin St Louis was a superior option. Even accepting that premise, can Iginla be that far behind (in your minds) as to not deserve immediate consideration now?!?
Valeri Vasiliev- this will take some time. Bear with me. Using the twin-streams of "start of double-up expansion" [E-12] and early '70s Soviet emergence on the World stage as starting points, we have advanced 1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-10 70s-to-present Canadian Defensemen, and one Russian Defenseman. And Canadian Defenseman 11 recently out-polled Russian Defenseman 2, comfortably. Really? I'm thinking "if true, it's a wonder the Russians ever got the puck out of their zone once another team came in with possession."
Bernie Parent- a good time for the stock reminder that Parent, as much as anyone, put the "bully" in The Bullies. Flyers go short-handed? No worries, our all-world Goaltender will stone you on your Power Play- and you'll still be sore (and defeated) in the morning. No wonder Philly Flu was a thing.

Jíři Holeček- I DON'T think our Panel made a mistake by nominating him ahead of Martinec.

Vladimir Martinec- one Czechoslovak league scoring title, and one league championship. I had him on my List, sure-- and we've advanced less optimal players already. But I'm not so sure about this one right now...

Sid Abel- nobody's really presented a metric case for him- for OR against. [Especially curious how he's show up on an "equalize for special-teams" VsX- you know, the one that showed that St Louis 7 & 10 year VsX edge over Iginla more than disappeared when we took Power Plays out of the equation- as the Panel let out a consensus-yawn over the presentation.]
Toe Blake- just no buzz around the guy. Just feels like he deserves better.
Alexander Maltsev- we've pointed out that he received relevant SPOTY-support starting at age 19. Too bad for him. The Panel hasn't been particularly impressed by precocity since sometime late in Vote 1, it seems. I'll add, however, that it hasn't been since Vote 1 and the early Lemieux days that we've had a Center quite as saddled with marginal Wingers in domestic league play. Also, how much credit do we want to give for the C/RW flexibility? Most likely nominee to move up my ballot.
Eddie Gerard- Starts in the poll-position, based on last Round's voting. He wasn't the best player on his team. Nor the second-best. Nor the third-best. I guess he was the fourth-best. Kind of like a + version of Serge Savard. Again, we could do worse- like advance anyone else not yet mentioned in this post.
Tony Esposito- rounds out my upper-half. What- more than three-quarters of an NHLer's play is in the Regular Season? If he just could have shown something in the post-season...

I will likely have Vasiliev on my ballot somewhere, but the Russian quota argument doesn't mean anything to me. How many times in the NHL over the past 20 years has there been a situation where more than one Russian defenseman was in the top 10 or 11 of overall blueliners? Off the top of my head, I don't think it was that often. Russia tends to produce great forwards disproportionate to other positions.

Also, on Abel...I'm not sure we have sufficient data to determine his PP/ES splits reliably. @overpass looked into this a while ago and found that the numbers looked too unlikely to accept as accurate for some years in the 1940s. Stuff like a team only being credited with less than 5 PP goals over an entire season for multiple seasons, etc.

Abel was possibly the best player on two distinctly different Cup winners, one of them prior to his leaving for war in 1943, the other in 1950. Despite the names on that 1950 Detroit team that went on to outstanding careers and made our list ages ago, Abel still seems to have been considered the best of them at that point in time. There is no debating that he was the leader of the team. Greatness can't always be measured with tangible statistics/metrics.
 
Last edited:

ted2019

History of Hockey
Oct 3, 2008
5,492
1,882
pittsgrove nj
I'm still seeing on where Maltsev fits at. Other then that, it might be chalk from my last round.
Iginla - far enough behind. Not interested.
Vasiliev - Don't believe in quotas. He wasn't good enough for me. Like the second best Calgary Flame of the Iginla era.
Parent - Could not be more irrelevant to this discussion. Two seasons, then the same team went to the Final with some kong donkey at the helm. He fell in the goalie project for a reason, there just isn't a lot there. If we're questioning guys that only have 6, 7, 8 years of success...I can't imagine how anyone has time for Bernie Parent this round...or the next, I don't know, seven...

I agree with Bernie as I had him 20th last round, however he will move up since Ron Francis is available. With Iginla, I keep going back and forth on. He was the face of the franchise for so many years, that it's hard to ignore that. His Hart voting is the 2nd best behind Espo. Had 66% of his points at even strength when in Calgary.
 

Hockey Outsider

Registered User
Jan 16, 2005
9,155
14,477
The other player I wanted to talk about (to preemptively address why he isn't on our final list) is Scott Niedermayer. I could have sworn there was a recent list on the NHL's website which showed him as a top ten defenseman all-time. I can't seem to find that, but I know he has some vocal supporters.

Through the end of the 2003 regular season, Niedermayer had a fairly unimpressive start to his career (by the standards of a top 100 player - consistently playing 24 minutes a night on the NHL's second best team during that period is objectively very good, of course). Through his first 11 seasons, I'm not sure that I'd rank Niedermayer higher than Sergei Zubov (a borderline Hall of Famer who isn't up for voting).

We all know that Niedermayer was a first-team all-star and Norris winner or runner-up each of the next three years (2004, 2006 an 2007) - but he started his peak during the 2003 playoffs, when he was the best Devil en route to their Stanley Cup victory. Because Niedermayer's peak was so late in his career, a lot of people seem to have "projected backwards" and assumed that he had played at that level his entire career - when that simply isn't true. We all know that the Norris trophy voting is imperfect - but I find it telling that he didn't receive a single vote in eight of his first eleven full seasons.

Some people have argued that Niedermayer's stats were suppressed by playing in New Jersey (as evidence by him scored 60+ points for the only time in his career once he left the Devils). I don't think that's the case; his scoring spiked after leaving because offense around the league jumped those two years. Based on hockey-reference's adjusted stats, there's only a 2 point difference between his two highest-scoring seasons as a Devil, vs his two highest-scoring seasons as a Duck.

Leetch was just voted in last round, and there should be a gap between them. Both played 1,200+ games; both had one decade to their career that was clearly better than the other. The difference in their offensive production, even when making reasonable era adjustments, is not small (in Leetch's favour). Niedermayer is better defensively but not enough to clear the huge gap offensively. Both had a Conn Smythe but Leetch's was dominant; Niedermayer's was undeserved. Leetch was top five in Norris voting seven times in a tougher era compared to four for Niedermayer.

Many people use Stanley Cups as a trump card. There's no denying that Niedermayer was an important contributor to many championship teams, but as I showed in the post about playoff R-On/Off, his team almost always fared worse when he was on the ice. Context matters, but I don't think it helps his case that, for almost his entire playoff career, he had an even better defenseman taking the toughest match-ups (Stevens in NJ, Pronger in Anaheim).

One interesting thing about Niedermayer is he wasn't a huge contributor to special teams. From 1998 (the first year we have ice time data) to 2007 (the end of his prime), he was 3rd among defensemen in ES ice time. But he was only 11th in PP TOI and 34th in PK TOI. This was unusual compared to top defensemen of his era. The same was true of Mark Howe, but at least in his case he had dominant ES results - Niedermayer doesn't.

Despite all this, I think highly of Niedermayer. He was just outside of my top 100. Maybe he deserves a spot if you're counting Cups and place a very high value on peak play. But there are too many players who have been all-star level players for much longer periods of time.
 
  • Like
Reactions: seventieslord

blogofmike

Registered User
Dec 16, 2010
2,183
932
Parent - Could not be more irrelevant to this discussion. Two seasons, then the same team went to the Final with some kong donkey at the helm. He fell in the goalie project for a reason, there just isn't a lot there. If we're questioning guys that only have 6, 7, 8 years of success...I can't imagine how anyone has time for Bernie Parent this round...or the next, I don't know, seven...

Longevity is the clear knock on Bernie, but the peak is legitimately good.

As for that kong donkey replacing him, in the Cup years, the Flyers outscored the NHL average by 24 and 19 goals. In 1976, the newly high-powered Flyers offense outscored the NHL average by 75 goals with their first #1 GF finish. In the playoffs the 1976 Flyers put up 61 goals in 16 games, vs the 1975 edition scoring 53 in 17. It's how they got by with the lesser goaltending of Stephenson and a diminished Parent (34 GA in 17 games in 1975, 49 GA in 16 games in 1976. And Parent's 1975 totals may be inflated by a 5 GA Fog Bowl loss where he was saving an invisible puck.) In short, the playoff Flyers went from a 2 GA team in 1974 and 1975, to a 3 GA team in 1976. They just managed to outscore the difference until their simultaneously close and one-sided loss in the Finals.

I find Eddie Gerard's impact is also tough to call by looking at what a team does without a guy. Gerard leaves and Ottawa GF/GA goes from 77/54 to 74/54. It looks like they got by fine without him, but Ottawa still had a stellar d-corps, with Boucher, Clancy, and Hitchman. Then again,1924 is a lower scoring year (though in a 4-team league averages may be more fluid and can be swayed by smaller changes), so the GA staying the same might mean the defense got worse. Then again, that means the offense got better without Gerard, and those three Ottawa defenders led the league in assists (Clancy/Hitchman tied at #1, Boucher 3rd outright). Then again with Gerard, Ottawa was a strong defensive team in the NHA and NHL for years. Then again, Ottawa usually gave him strong support in terms of a system and in terms of players. When Nighbor got hurt Ottawa gave up the most GA in 1918 (114 GA in 22 games. GF/GA of 43/41 in 10 games with Nighbor, 59/73 in 12 games without.)
 
  • Like
Reactions: seventieslord

Michael Farkas

Celebrate 68
Jun 28, 2006
13,487
8,058
NYC
www.hockeyprospect.com
For the record, Parent's peak was not what I was debating. I essentially said that outside of those two years he's completely irrelevant to this. With those two years, he's just regular irrelevant.
 

wetcoast

Registered User
Nov 20, 2018
22,581
10,363
I'm not actually sure if Hartford/Carolina Francis was any better than Keon offensively. 80-90 point seasons in the 1980s just aren't anything special. Keon's 55 point seasons playing 10 less games in a much lower scoring environment with less PP time are arguably superior from an offensive standpoint. Pittsburgh Francis, sure, but it's hard to ignore the inflationary effect of Jagr on his wing and Lemieux on the PP on his numbers. Francis was a good defensive player, but Keon was one of the best of all time. I don't see this comparison as particularly close to be honest, though of course I'm higher on Keon than most and would have voted him in several rounds sooner than we did.

Fair enough and for the record I dont think either player has a very strong case for the top 100 players of all time.

The difference overall between Keon, Kopitar, Bergeron, Toewes and Francis can be made on coinflips.
 

wetcoast

Registered User
Nov 20, 2018
22,581
10,363
I think the opinions of anyone besides the media are fairly difficult to come by in the present era. You're not going to find a curently employed coach or executive willing to sit down and discuss the merits of active players and how they compare to one another in any sort of detail. Players themselves seldom go past broad generalizations, "I'd start a new franchise with McDavid" or "Crosby is the best player in the league" type of stuff.

If in 2040 you get a bunch of guys who played or coached in the 2010s to sit down and discuss what it was like to play against Toews, or explain why they thought Malkin was better than Ovechkin or something, etc. then I would definitely take what they were saying seriously.

I don't find media overly reliable in modern times. No more reliable than myself as a fan. In eras with fewer teams where they saw every player live several times per season their opinions carry more weight for me personally.

This skepticism of the modern media is fair game. The question is, does it extend to all media over time?

I ask because some in the current round (and players already voted in Firsov being the best example) have the exact same media case not backed up by stats.

Savard and Niedermeyer are the 2 guys this would apply to the most in the current round.
 

ChiTownPhilly

Not Too Soft
Feb 23, 2010
2,105
1,391
AnyWorld/I'mWelcomeTo
Because, re: Parent- with two years of the best play in the history of the position, and another nearly half-dozen years where the only thing that's keeping him from being the best in the league are guys like Hall, Plante, Dryden (whom we've already listed), and Tony O, who'd already be on the list if championships were decided EPL-style... well, that's just not enough for some to consider him relevant.

Some measured comprehension of my shop-worn Tennyson quote: "better 50 years of Europe than a cycle of Cathay" seems to be a somewhat material precondition to an understanding of the value of Bernie Parent.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DannyGallivan

Batis

Registered User
Sep 17, 2014
1,093
1,030
Merida, Mexico
Here is a repost from the preliminary discussion regarding the two-way play of Vladimir Martinec.

First some quotes about it.

I´ll start with Miloslav Charouzd´s overview of basic types of forwards that you could mostly find in the League at the time, some descriptions may be interesting or useful to know. The first article bears the title: DOES THE IDEAL TYPE OF FORWARD EXIST?
View attachment 130809

‚Defender‘ is usually a good skater, as he covers comparatively large space in offensive and defensive zones. The player is usually well-built physically, has an advantage in continuous control of the puck, at the same time he acts as an ‚forward-playing antenna‘ of active defense of the team. Outstanding representatives of this type of forward – Jiří Holík and Martinec – have almost even ratio of goals scored and assists and their collective and responsible style of play for the team needs to be highly appreaciated. Ševčík can calmly be measured with these players when it comes to work in defense. However today, we have started to require big effort, immediate counter-attacking skills even from a player securing defense in order for him to get into the scoring areas by himself or to selflessly create the shooting positions for his teammates.

But when you watch old CSSR games from the 1970s, you see Martinec on the penalty kill A LOT, surely he was among the most used forwards. As for his other defensive play, I haven't found much written on it (and maybe I wouldn't emphasize it too much), but there is at least this mention in the Finnish sports book Talviurheilun Sankarit (the section on hockey was written by Jyrki Laelma):

Jyrki Laelma

"The most important thing is that Martinec's work capacity is unbelievable - even a simpleton can see that he is always able to carry the puck over the blue line, but his defensive contribution is never understood," said a journalist from Pardubice in Düsseldorf.

Quod Erat Demonstrandum; his defensive contribution is never understood in the ATD either
clear.png


Here is my favourite defensive play from Martinec, in game 2 of the 1976 CC final:
1976 Canada Cup Final Canada Vs Czechoslovakia Game #2
Espo and Pete Mahovlich on a breakaway; now surely that's a goal without Martinec's brilliant effort.

Focusing specifically on the penalty killing of Martinec here are some of my posts on that subject.

Martinec shorthanded ice time finishes:

WHC 1970: -
WHC 1972: 3rd
Post Summit Series 1972: 3rd
WOG 1976: 2nd
Canada Cup 1976*: Tied for 2nd
WHC 1977: 1st
WHC 1978: 1st
WHC 1979: 3rd
WOG 1980: - (Got injured before the first shorthanded shift in the available game)
WHC 1981: Tied for 4th

One thing worth noting is that from the majority of these tournaments we only have 1 or 2 available games which means that it is far from certain that the shorthanded ice time numbers perfectly mirrors what happened the whole tournament. This was a problem in the Soviet study as well but far less so than in the Czechoslovakian study since there are far less available games with Czechoslovakia. One example of this problem is that I personally believe that Martinec likely led the 1979 WHC in shorthanded ice time over the whole tournament but since he was in the box during 1 of the 4 boxplays in the available game he ended up 3rd in shorthanded ice time just 5 seconds behind the leaders. So I personally make mental adjustments between the shorthanded ice time finishes and the eye-test when I rank the players.

It is clear that Martinec was a outstanding penalty killer as evident by him being top 3 in shorthanded ice time during every available tournament between 1972 and 1979. That is some truly great consistency right there. With that said I don't think that he quite measures up to the Holík/Makarov level of penalty killing even if he definitely belongs near the top.

* Since the video quality from first part of the USSR-CSSR game at the 1976 Canada Cup makes it impossible to estimate the ice times I have only included the shifts from the second half of that game. From that tournament we also fortunately have 3 full games against Canada.

And as a comparison here are the ice time finishes of the in my opinion greatest Czechoslovakian penalty killing forward Jiri Holik.

Jiří Holík definitely belongs in the top group of international PK greats as well no matter if they belong in the top tier or the next tier below. In fact I would say that Holík is the greatest Czechoslovakian penalty killer and also has a strong case for being the greatest penalty killer from the Eastern Bloc. In that categorie I would say that Makarov is his main competition for the top spot.

Here below are Holiks shorthanded ice time finishes from the available tournaments.

WHC 1967: 1st
WOG 1968: -
WHC 1969: 2nd
WHC 1970: 1st
WHC 1972: 1st
Post Summit Series 1972: 5th
WOG 1976: 1st
Canada Cup 1976*: 1st
WHC 1977: 5th

It is also worth noticing that his 2nd place finish at the 1969 WHC was a performance every bit as strong or perhaps even stronger than many of his 1st place finishes since Holík and 1st placed Ševčík (along with Suchý) completely carried the Czechoslovakian penalty kill during that tournament and both of them had far more than twice as much shorthanded ice time as the 3rd placed forward Jaroslav Holík. Considering that Jiří Holík did so well both during the 1967-1972 and 1976-1977 time frames it seems reasonable to assume that he also did well in 1973-1975. It seems likely that he did reasonably well in 1964-1966 as well. Add all of this together and it is likely that Holíks longevity as a top notch penalty killer surpassed that of any Soviet PK great. Even without speculating about the 1964-1966 time frame the time frame during which Holík was one of very greatest Czechoslovakian penalty killers compares very well to that of any of the Soviet greats as evident by his first 1st place finish coming in 1967 and his last in 1976.

Now I personally don't think that Holík peaked quite as high as Makarov and Krutov did in the mid-late 80's (unless he had such a peak in 1973-1975) but that his combination of a still very high peak and incredible longevity as a top notch penalty killer gives him a strong case for being the greatest penalty killer from the Eastern Bloc. The main argument against Holík could perhaps be that it is possible that the competition among Czechoslovakian penalty killing forwards was on a somewhat lower level than among Soviet forwards. Even if this would be true Holík still definitely belongs very near the top of the greatest penalty killers from the Eastern Bloc.

As mentioned in these posts I would not rank Martinec quite on the Makarov/Holik level of penalty killing but he does belong near the top and may very well be top-5 or at the very least top-10 when it comes to penalty killing among forwards from the Eastern Bloc.

Here below you have some examples of Martinec penalty killing against very strong opponents (Best-on-Best Team Canada and the Soviet National Team)


Here Martinec again shows his ability to force the puck out of his own zone while shorthanded. Against Canada in 1976.


Strong shorthanded shift from Martinec and Holik against Canada in 1976 again.


Great shorthanded shift from Martinec against Canada at the 1976 Canada Cup. Yes Bobby Hull gets a clear scoring chance early on but the rest of the shift Czechoslovakia shows some very strong penalty killing.
 
  • Like
Reactions: DN28

Batis

Registered User
Sep 17, 2014
1,093
1,030
Merida, Mexico
Here is another strong shift from Martinec by the way where he steals the puck and almost scores a shorthanded goal against the Soviets at the 1978 WHC.



Martinec was brilliant when it comes to clearing the puck out of his own zone though and very calm and collected when he had the puck on his stick. Here is another example of this. Although on the Bobby Orr rush which results in a goal both Martinec and his teammates could have done better.



And here is another example of strong penalty killing from Martinec against the Soviets at the 1977 WHC.

 
  • Like
Reactions: Kyle McMahon

Canadiens1958

Registered User
Nov 30, 2007
20,020
2,779
Lake Memphremagog, QC.

On the Orr goal, on two occassions the Czechs show terrible spacing. In front of the Canadian net and at their own blue line as Orr goes in to score. Two Czechs virtually touch each other.
 

ted2019

History of Hockey
Oct 3, 2008
5,492
1,882
pittsgrove nj
Because, re: Parent- with two years of the best play in the history of the position, and another nearly half-dozen years where the only thing that's keeping him from being the best in the league are guys like Hall, Plante, Dryden (whom we've already listed), and Tony O, who'd already be on the list if championships were decided EPL-style... well, that's just not enough for some to consider him relevant.

Some measured comprehension of my shop-worn Tennyson quote: "better 50 years of Europe than a cycle of Cathay" seems to be a somewhat material precondition to an understanding of the value of Bernie Parent.

No matter how you spin it, Bernie isn't a top 100 player or even a top 150 player. This is coming from a 42 year Flyers fan.
 
  • Like
Reactions: seventieslord

Theokritos

Global Moderator
Apr 6, 2010
12,541
4,938
This skepticism of the modern media is fair game. The question is, does it extend to all media over time?

I ask because some in the current round (and players already voted in Firsov being the best example) have the exact same media case not backed up by stats.

His answer is already there:

I don't find media overly reliable in modern times. No more reliable than myself as a fan. In eras with fewer teams where they saw every player live several times per season their opinions carry more weight for me personally.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Kyle McMahon

Dennis Bonvie

Registered User
Dec 29, 2007
29,481
17,912
Connecticut
Throughout this exercise, I've tried to stick to the old drafting adage, "Take the best player available". But with only one spot left, I'll be going for need.

Pre-NHL players should be represented. So, as Russell Bowie was the highest ranking player left from my original list, he'll be #1.

2-5 will be Europeans. Seems some voters really short-changed a number of them. So Bure, Holeček, Martinec and Vasiliev are next in some order.

Bure is a favorite of mine. A true superstar. One of the all-time great goal scorers. But also because he struck a blow for all finesse players that had to share the ice with intimidating goons who had limited hockey skills. The Shane Churla flying elbow was one of my favorite moments in viewing NHL hockey.
 
  • Like
Reactions: ehhedler

Kyle McMahon

Registered User
May 10, 2006
13,301
4,354
This skepticism of the modern media is fair game. The question is, does it extend to all media over time?

I ask because some in the current round (and players already voted in Firsov being the best example) have the exact same media case not backed up by stats.

Savard and Niedermeyer are the 2 guys this would apply to the most in the current round.

As I mentioned, I take the media more seriously from eras further back in time. They were seeing the same teams and players night after night when the league was small. Media in modern times have shown repeatedly that they do not even know the positions of the players they are handing out awards to.
 
  • Like
Reactions: TheDevilMadeMe

Ad

Upcoming events

Ad

Ad