Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 21

Michael Farkas

Celebrate 68
Jun 28, 2006
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Hmm...Francis, vaguely, in the late 1980's...

Gretzky, Lemieux, Bourque, Messier, Yzerman...

Kurri, late Trottier, Coffey, Chelios...

Can you make a claim that Francis was considered a top-10 player in the league around that time...? It doesn't matter really, just making conversation until we talk about a player who will actually make that last spot...
 

DannyGallivan

Your world frightens and confuses me
Aug 25, 2017
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One of us should write a preemptive response to the inevitable "how can Francis not be a top 100 player since he's the 5th highest scoring player ever"? I might have time to do that later in the week.
Toss in a good dose of why Mike Gartner doesn't get a sniff, either.
 

wetcoast

Registered User
Nov 20, 2018
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Meh, Eric Staal has the 5th most points since the lockout...Patrick Marleau has something like the 4th or 5th most points since 2000...all stacked with HOFers (and top 100 players, for that matter) ahead of them...it's not nothing, but it's also not something I'm too interested in...

Sure but being first in a 10 year period is alot different than being 4th or 5th.
 

Michael Farkas

Celebrate 68
Jun 28, 2006
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I guess...I mean, the player we're talking about isn't first though...and it's 6 points over third place...it's 7% more than 6th place Bernie Federko...it's just trivia really...it holds no real value in and of itself...
 

bobholly39

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Mar 10, 2013
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How good was Francis defensively? His Selke voting record isn't that far off from Fedorov's - whose generally spoken of as some huge defensive guru. He also has better offensive numbers despite playing 500+ more games than him. Yet Fedorov slotted a long time ago - and no one seems to want to consider Francis at the top here.

I think him being 5h highest in points all-time should count. Peak is important but so is longevity and consistency. And we're not talking about someone like Jagr, Chelios or Howe who played till 45 or more which allowed him to accumulate stats. He retired at 40, not that old. Being 5th all times in point while retiring at 40 is pretty impressive stuff.

Very good playoff record too. His run in Carolina in 2002 as the captain at age 38 was also quite important and impressive.

I really like Ron Francis here as potential #1 in this grouping.
 

bobholly39

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Mar 10, 2013
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I'm not advocating we change the voting for this round - but curious how different the results would look if everyone only votes for 1 #100 candidate, instead of submitting a top 10 list.
 

Johnny Engine

Moderator
Jul 29, 2009
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I'm not advocating we change the voting for this round - but curious how different the results would look if everyone only votes for 1 #100 candidate, instead of submitting a top 10 list.
We should be able to glean that from QPQ's tables after the vote
 

ted2019

History of Hockey
Oct 3, 2008
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pittsgrove nj
Are people who are high on old school media/coach/executive/peer favorites like Hod Stuart & Eddie Gerard also high on new school media/coach/executive/peer favorites like say Toews?

I'm asking because I got this thought in my head that the same kind of mentality/psychological aspects are present/involved in that kind of public evaluation.

I like Toews, but I like the other 2 players more.
 

bobholly39

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Mar 10, 2013
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Fedorov didn't slot in a long time ago, he appeared a long time ago but was not voted in until a few rounds back. It was Selänne who slotted in a long time ago.



40 is old.

Sakic played till 39
Yzerman till 40
Fedorov till 39

He has all those guys beat on points. All of which have slotted way before him (especially the first 2). I'm not saying Francis should rank higher all-time than Joe Sakic - but I feel there's still a lot of worth and merit to having so much consistency and performing at such a high level for so long.

Look at Yzerman. He also started his carer at age 18 and played till 40. And Ron Francis outscored him.
 

sr edler

gold is not reality
Mar 20, 2010
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@bobholly39

Francis' offensive numbers got a bit boosted by playing for an extended period of time (basically the whole 1990s) with Jagr in Pittsburgh (and to a less extended period M. Lemieux, PP wise). Despite this he couldn't hit 30 goals in a season but functioned as a second wave set up guy/defensive presence. Look at how Kovalev's stats took off when he joined the same party.

I'm not anti-Francis but he can't touch Fedorov's three year peak 1993–1996.
 

Kyle McMahon

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May 10, 2006
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Are people who are high on old school media/coach/executive/peer favorites like Hod Stuart & Eddie Gerard also high on new school media/coach/executive/peer favorites like say Toews?

I'm asking because I got this thought in my head that the same kind of mentality/psychological aspects are present/involved in that kind of public evaluation.

I think the opinions of anyone besides the media are fairly difficult to come by in the present era. You're not going to find a curently employed coach or executive willing to sit down and discuss the merits of active players and how they compare to one another in any sort of detail. Players themselves seldom go past broad generalizations, "I'd start a new franchise with McDavid" or "Crosby is the best player in the league" type of stuff.

If in 2040 you get a bunch of guys who played or coached in the 2010s to sit down and discuss what it was like to play against Toews, or explain why they thought Malkin was better than Ovechkin or something, etc. then I would definitely take what they were saying seriously.

I don't find media overly reliable in modern times. No more reliable than myself as a fan. In eras with fewer teams where they saw every player live several times per season their opinions carry more weight for me personally.
 

bobholly39

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Mar 10, 2013
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I know Francis is very weak for peak - certainly in contrast to some of those other names in the 90s i mentioned. But my point is - doesn't a player at some point overcome a weaker peak if in the longrun he has enough consistency and top end performances?

Francis has 5 top 10 scoring finishes. Fedorov had 2. Even Yzerman only has 6 - and i'd argue Francis' Selke record looks better than Yzerman's.
 

Kyle McMahon

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May 10, 2006
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I don't think Francis getting spot #100 would be any sort of travesty in and of itself, but it's really tough to argue he should rank ahead of Norm Ullman. All the longevity arguments that Francis has as his calling card also apply to Ullman, but Ullman's peak seasons are inarguably better.
 

Hockey Outsider

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Jan 16, 2005
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The other point to make about Ron Francis (and then I'll stop talking about him) is I don't think he's as good as his numbers suggest (which is a strange thing to say about a player who was very good defensively, and who developed into a well-respected leader).

From 1982 to 1991 (covering ages 18 to 27), Francis was never in the top ten in scoring in any season. Nor was he in the top ten in scoring overall (that's also true if you exclude his rookie season, or even if you cherry-pick his few best years in that range).

I think there were some challenges in getting him integrated with the Pens' killer offense (65 points in his first 84 games in Pittsburgh). But once he started getting top icetime, his stats shot upwards. He was a top ten scorer four times in a row (three of those in the top five) from ages 31 to 34. It's not impossible that Francis got better with age, but it's much more likely that his stats got a big boost by getting so much ice time with Lemieux, Jagr and Robitaille.

Corroborating that notion is, as soon as Francis left Pittsburgh, his offense plummeted (he scored 25 fewer points in 1999 - dropping from tied for 5th to tied for 69th in scoring - despite playing basically the same number of games in both years). That same year, Jagr had his best offensive season - I don't doubt that playing with Francis helped Jagr, but it seems clear who needed who more.

The only other time in Francis's career when he placed in the top ten in scoring was in 2002, when he was tied for 9th. That's routinely regarded as one the weaker years for top-end talent (for example, Forsberg missed the entire regular season; Lemieux missed two-thirds; Lindros, Bure, Thornton and Kovalev all missed enough to keep them out of the top ten).

I actually like and respect Ron Francis a lot as a player. As I mentioned in one of my previous posts, he's pretty much the perfect complementary player for a championship team. But even though he's the 5th highest scoring player in NHL history, he's not anywhere close to a top five (or probably even a top fifty) scoring talent - his numbers are what they are thanks to a perfect storm of playing in a high-scoring era and having his numbers boosted by playing on a run-and-gun team after his offensive peak "should" have ended.

====

The other player who we might want to consider making a "preemptive" argument against - Scott Niedermayer. There seem to be a number of people in the mainstream hockey media who talk about him as if he's a top ten defenseman all-time.
 

vadim sharifijanov

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Oct 10, 2007
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Hmm...Francis, vaguely, in the late 1980's...

Gretzky, Lemieux, Bourque, Messier, Yzerman...

Kurri, late Trottier, Coffey, Chelios...

Can you make a claim that Francis was considered a top-10 player in the league around that time...? It doesn't matter really, just making conversation until we talk about a player who will actually make that last spot...

is ron francis even definitely a top ten center in the league in the late 80s?

francis' late 80s points totals were 93 in '87, 75 in '88, 77 in '89, 101 in '90, and he got one single 2nd team all star and second place hart vote, probably from the same hartford reporter.

he's definitely behind

gretzky
mario
messier
yzerman
hawerchuk (100, 121, 96, 81)
savard (90, 131, 82, 80 -- plus playoff runs of 19 and 22 points)
gilmour (105, 86, 85, 91 -- plus playoff runs of 17 and 22 points)

and then a legit question whether he's ahead of lafontaine, bernie nicholls, bobby smith, later stastny, even kirk muller who played mostly center in those years. and i guess on the basis of still being late prime trottier in '87 and '88, you could argue trots too.
 
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GlitchMarner

Typical malevolent, devious & vile Maple Leafs fan
Jul 21, 2017
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I'm not sure Hartford Francis was that much better than Carolina Staal in his prime, to be completely honest. I don't have time right now to do a detailed comparison, but I think if someone was to do a comparison of 2006-2013 Staal and Hartford Francis, Ron wouldn't look so much better that you would think you were comparing Staal to a possible top 100 hockey player of all-time.
 

wetcoast

Registered User
Nov 20, 2018
22,507
10,299
I'm not advocating we change the voting for this round - but curious how different the results would look if everyone only votes for 1 #100 candidate, instead of submitting a top 10 list.

Tedious is the first thought that comes to mind never mind voter fatigue setting in after the top 10 guys.
 

vadim sharifijanov

Registered User
Oct 10, 2007
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when john bucyk retired he was 4th all time in points behind howe, esposito, and mikita; 4th all time in goals behind howe, esposito, and hull; and 4th all time in assists behind howe, mikita, and delvecchio.

that's your basic context for ron francis right?

very good but unspectacular and ultimately non-needle-moving player toiling away on a weak team for a decade, very good two-way player who did a lot of little things, finds himself on a superteam that won two cups but should have had more with two of the 5-10 greatest offensive players of all time, puts up some bananas point totals, peaks late, all-round game gets overrated due to his great fundamentals and being the wise old voice of reason on teams with... some mercurial personalities, plays forever because he was always slow to begin with and lived off his hockey IQ, walks away with a bunch of lady byngs.
 

DannyGallivan

Your world frightens and confuses me
Aug 25, 2017
7,576
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Melonville
when john bucyk retired he was 4th all time in points behind howe, esposito, and mikita; 4th all time in goals behind howe, esposito, and hull; and 4th all time in assists behind howe, mikita, and delvecchio.

that's your basic context for ron francis right?

very good but unspectacular and ultimately non-needle-moving player toiling away on a weak team for a decade, very good two-way player who did a lot of little things, finds himself on a superteam that won two cups but should have had more with two of the 5-10 greatest offensive players of all time, puts up some bananas point totals, peaks late, all-round game gets overrated due to his great fundamentals and being the wise old voice of reason on teams with... some mercurial personalities, plays forever, walks away with a bunch of lady byngs.
Excellent points... and the Bucyk comparison put things into perspective.
 
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