Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 21

[DannyGallivan]

I doubt Hawerchuk would get any traction after seeing how Stastny has fared.

Not from anybody outside of me, for sure. I also like Gilmour, and he would be in my top 150. I just think that in their primes, Hawerchuk was the better player. Like Kariya, Hawerchuk played his best years on a team that a.) couldn't build around his talent, and b.) unlike Kariya, faced the dynasty Edmonton Oilers too often in the playoffs.

 

[Hockey Outsider]

It initially bugged me that Stastny wasn't getting very much mileage out of being the 2nd highest scoring player of a decade. But I'm okay with that now - Adam Oates and Marty Barry aren't even up for voting. (And, as a few people mentioned, Stastny is basically neck-and-neck with Hawerchuk - just that Stastny started right in 1980, so his prime lines up exactly with the calendar decade, whereas Hawerchuk's doesn't).

How's this for trivia? Lemieux never placed in the top 10 in scoring in either the 1980s as a whole (19th) or the 1990s as a whole (14th) - due to injuries and starting halfway through a decade. That shows how arbitrary this metric can be.

 

[wetcoast]

It initially bugged me that Stastny wasn't getting very much mileage out of being the 2nd highest scoring player of a decade. But I'm okay with that now - Adam Oates and Marty Barry aren't even up for voting. (And, as a few people mentioned, Stastny is basically neck-and-neck with Hawerchuk - just that Stastny started right in 1980, so his prime lines up exactly with the calendar decade, whereas Hawerchuk's doesn't).

How's this for trivia? Lemieux never placed in the top 10 in scoring in either the 1980s as a whole (19th) or the 1990s as a whole (14th) - due to injuries and starting halfway through a decade. That shows how arbitrary this metric can be.

It's not the fact that Statsny scored highest in a decade but that he score more points than anyone not named Gretzky over a 10 year period and also had some pretty good years before that and was a pretty good playoff player.

He will be left off the list mainly because lesser players on the list played for winning teams and or countries not encase they had actual better resumes.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Meh, Eric Staal has the 5th most points since the lockout...Patrick Marleau has something like the 4th or 5th most points since 2000...all stacked with HOFers (and top 100 players, for that matter) ahead of them...it's not nothing, but it's also not something I'm too interested in...

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

stastny seems to be a referendum on a certain kind of player, let's call it the garden variety post-expansion franchise scoring center.

he always gets spoken of in the same breath as hawerchuk and savard. to broaden the field, you have perreault, ratelle, and sittler in the 70s; oates, sundin, roenick in the 90s; and tavares, stamkos, henrik sedin in the last 15-20.

we can argue 'til the cows come home whether varous st. louis centers, federko, pierre turgeon, doug weight, belong in this conversation. but maybe the more important question goes the other way: does the top 100 already have one player from this category in it? namely, marcel dionne.

and if even if dionne is too good to count, do we really need stastny as the best of the bunch to stand for that big field of other superstar scoring centers who won't make the list?

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

to follow up on that point, it's maybe a feather in the cap of this project that stastny is even a question if we pose it the way i'm posing it.

the HHOF is overrepresented by that kind of player, and so are mainstream lists, like THN and the NHL's top 100s. like, they just look at a guy and if he scored 100 points a lot of times and finished in the top five in his best few years and was the offensive face of his franchise for 5-10 years then he checks the boxes and they put him on the list.

but the HHOF tokenizes guys like gainey and langway, both unique players, to stand for underrepresented kinds of players. this list really gets to the heart of the uniqueness of every player considered and so... maybe you do need a token generic 100 point superstar center.

or maybe for spits and giggles that 100th spot should go to ratelle/perreault/sittler/stastny/savard/hawerchuk/oates/etc (tie).

 

[Kyle McMahon]

I don't think Stastny was a must-include, but I do find it perplexing that other one-way offensive players from the post-WHA era in Malkin, Dionne, Selanne, Kane, and St. Louis were treated so much better. Malkin and Kane have the playoffs trump card that they can play...not really sure what advantage the other three would have on Stastny though.

If Stastny were to ultimately get the final spot, I think his case would need to be aided by a feeling that the list would have an "incomplete" feeling if no pre-Hasek/Jagr Czech players were represented. Stastny is mainly considered an NHL player, but did have some strong years behind the Iron Curtain as well. Not as good as Martinec or Holocek obviously, but his NHL career would certainly bridge most if not all of that gap I would think.

The other available candidate that I feel gets a boost out of not having his "demographic" represented yet, so to speak, is Russell Bowie. Hod Stuart, Frank McGee, or any other contemporary you care to mention did not make it into the debate, leaving Bowie as the lone option to recognize the pre-NHA/semi-amateur era of the sport.

 

[TheDevilMadeMe]

I don't think Stastny was a must-include, but I do find it perplexing that other one-way offensive players from the post-WHA era in Malkin, Dionne, Selanne, Kane, and St. Louis were treated so much better. Malkin and Kane have the playoffs trump card that they can play...not really sure what advantage the other three would have on Stastny though.

If Stastny were to ultimately get the final spot, I think his case would need to be aided by a feeling that the list would have an "incomplete" feeling if no pre-Hasek/Jagr Czech players were represented. Stastny is mainly considered an NHL player, but did have some strong years behind the Iron Curtain as well. Not as good as Martinec or Holocek obviously, but his NHL career would certainly bridge most if not all of that gap I would think.

The other available candidate that I feel gets a boost out of not having his "demographic" represented yet, so to speak, is Russell Bowie. Hod Stuart, Frank McGee, or any other contemporary you care to mention did not make it into the debate, leaving Bowie as the lone option to recognize the pre-NHA/semi-amateur era of the sport.

Dionne, Selanne, and St Louis all have better regular season offensive records, compared to their peers, than Stastny does. Dionne's is much better. Selanne also probably got a bit of a boost for his international record.

Stasnty might sneak into the lower end of my top 10 this round, but when he's slightly worse at both ends of the ice than Ullman, I can't really see a case for him to actually make the list.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

Dionne, Selanne, and St Louis all have better regular season offensive records, compared to their peers, than Stastny does. Dionne's is much better. Selanne also probably got a bit of a boost for his international record.

Stasnty might sneak into the lower end of my top 10 this round, but when he's slightly worse at both ends of the ice than Ullman, I can't really see a case for him to actually make the list.

Sure, Dionne did it for longer even if his peak wasn't really any higher. But he also went in around #60, terrible playoff resume and all. Dionne being comfortably in the third quarter of the list while Stastny is an afterthought for inclusion at all just seems off to me. But at a distance both are offensive guys from the same era and Dionne was a little bit better at it, so fair enough if there's only room for one of them.

I can't agree that Selanne or especially St. Louis were better offensive players though. Stastny's best seasons easily win either of St. Louis' Art Ross trophies, and he cracked the top 5 in points just as often as St. Louis despite facing significantly tougher competition in the early 80s. Selanne's high-end years in the 90s seem on par with Stastny's, but unless you're putting a stiff premium on goals over assists, I'm not sure you can really say he was actually better. Selanne's renaissance years after the lockout and Stastny's pre-NHL years probably wash.

I could probably go either way on Stasnty/Ullman. I'm still not sure Ullman was as good as Stastny offensively, even factoring in that Ullman did most of his scoring at even strength. As I discovered last round, Stastny's production is more ES-heavy than you might suspect in some of his earlier seasons. The high praise NHL coaches had for Ullman's forechecking and him often carrying weaker wingers swings things back in his favour though.

 

[Batis]

In my opinion the strongest points on Maltsevs resume are these ones.

1) The greatest elite longevity of any Soviet player: Maltsev recieved his first SPOTY voting support at age 19 in 68/69 and his last season of recieving voting support was at age 33 in 82/83. No other Soviet player recieved SPOTY voting support in seasons that far apart in time. During that time frame Maltsev got votes in every season but one (in 78/79 when he was out injured almost the entire season) which means that he has 14 seasons where he recieved voting support. Also on the international stage it is worth noting that Maltsev has the record for winning the Directorate best forward award at the WHC with most years in between (1970-1981).

2) Very impressive award recognition at international tournaments: Aside from having won 3 Directorate best forward awards and being selected to the All-Star team 5 times at the WHC Maltsev also made the All-Star team at the 1976 Canada Cup. Here you have a deeper look at Maltsevs WHC All-Star voting record.

Alexander Maltsev: 1st (1970), 1st (1972), 1st (1981), 2nd (1971), 4th (1978), 6th (1974)

Maltsevs WHC All-Star voting record definitely belongs in the top tier along with Makarovs and Firsovs voting records. The two things that stands out to me with Maltsevs voting record is his peak in 1970-1972 where he finished 1st, 2nd, 1st over 3 tournaments and his outstanding elite longevity considering that he led the voting the first time in 1970 and the last time in 1981. No other forward even had so much time between their first and last top 3 finish although Makarov was rather close there with 1979-1989. The competition among forwards during Maltsevs peak 1970-1972 was also very high considering that he first was up against peak Firsov in 1970-1971 and then peak Kharlamov in 1972.

And here is how he compares to the other top forwards. (From the Mikhailov discussion)

Regarding Mikhailovs WHC All-Star voting record I thought that it would be a good idea to look at how his overall voting record compares to the other top forwards. First here you have the voting record of Mikhailov. Note that when a player made the First All-Star Team but we don't have the exact vote count I have put that down as a Top 3 finish among forwards and when a player made the Second All-Star Team I have put it down as a top 6 finish. Then we can of course speculate on the actual voting finish based on the strenght of the players performance in the tournament.

Boris Mikhailov: Top 3 (1973), Top 3 (1979), 4th (1974), Top 6 (1978), 8th (1972) Tied for 12th (1971), Tied for 16th (1970)

I don´t really know what to think about Mikhailovs voting record. On the one hand it is a deep and strong voting record for only being a 2-time First Team All-Star. On the other hand I would say that it is a rather disappointing voting record for a player of Mikhailovs quality. Especially the sub-par results in 1969-1971. It is of course entirely possible that Mikhailov led both the 1973 and the 1979 votings considering that he was voted Best Forward by the Directorate in those tournaments (3-way tie in 1979). It is also entirely possible that Mikhailov did rather well in the 1975 and 1977 votings even if he did not make the All-Star team. But based on the data we have available I would say that Mikhailov probably does not quite belong in the Kharlamov/Petrov/Martinec tier when it comes to WHC All-Star voting but rather in the Nedomansky/Krutov tier.

For comparisons sake here are the voting records of the other 9 players which I would have in the top 10 when it comes to WHC All-Star voting among forwards. With some short commentary on each player.

Sergei Makarov: 1st (1982), 1st (1985), 1st (1986), 2nd (1987), 2nd (1989), 3rd (1981), Top 3 (1979), Top 3 (1983)

Makarovs WHC All-Star voting record is simply outstanding and it is not impossible that he led the forwards in the voting 5 times. This considering that he in the two years from which we don't have the voting result won the Directorate award in a 3-way tie in 1979 and was voted the All-Star team RW ahead of the Directorate award winner Lala in 1983. And even without speculating about his results in 1979 and 1983 further than that he almost certainly finished top 3 in the voting Makarov still clearly has the most impressive voting record among forwards. It is perhaps also worth noting that he in 1982 led the All-Star voting ahead of a certain Wayne Gretzky who finished in second place. So it would be difficult to complain about his top competition that tournament.

Anatoli Firsov: 1st (1967), 1st (1968), 1st (1971), 2nd (1969), 2nd (1970), 11th (1965)

Firsovs 1967-1971 stretch is along with Makarovs 1982-1986 stretch in my opinion the most impressive consecutive peak period when it comes to WHC All-Star voting. Firsovs five straight tournaments finishing top 2 in the voting during that 1967-1971 stretch is also something that only Makarov possibly managed to beat out between 1982 and 1989 (depending on how high he ranked in 1983). In fact outside of Makarov and Firsov no other forward even has five top 2 finishes in the voting consecutive or not. And the final time that Firsov led the voting in 1971 he had among the toughest top competition one could get in Europe consisting of peak Maltsev and Kharlamov who was just about to enter his peak.

Alexander Maltsev: 1st (1970), 1st (1972), 1st (1981), 2nd (1971), 4th (1978), 6th (1974)

Maltsevs WHC All-Star voting record definitely belongs in the top tier along with Makarovs and Firsovs voting records. The two things that stands out to me with Maltsevs voting record is his peak in 1970-1972 where he finished 1st, 2nd, 1st over 3 tournaments and his outstanding elite longevity considering that he led the voting the first time in 1970 and the last time in 1981. No other forward even had so much time between their first and last top 3 finish although Makarov was rather close there with 1979-1989. The competition among forwards during Maltsevs peak 1970-1972 was also very high considering that he first was up against peak Firsov in 1970-1971 and then peak Kharlamov in 1972.

Valeri Kharlamov: 1st (1976), 2nd (1972), 3rd (1971), Top 3 (1973), 4th (1969), 7th (1970), 8th (1974)

For a player with "only" 3 First Team All-Star selections Kharlamovs WHC All-Star voting record really is very strong as he managed to finish top 3 in the voting four times and top 4 five times. That is as many top 3 finishes and more top 4 finishes than 4-time All-Stars like Martinec and Petrov. The only reason that Kharlamov does not have 4 First Team selections himself is that he was stuck behind peak Firsov at LW in 1971 which means that he did not make the team despite being third in the overall voting.

Vladimir Petrov: 2nd (1975), Top 3 (1973), Top 3 (1977), Top 3 (1979), 6th (1970), Tied for 7th (1971), 10th (1974)

As Petrovs 4 First Team selections already suggests his WHC All-Star voting record is very strong. Since we don´t have the voting results for 3 of the 4 tournaments when Petrov made the All-Star team it is difficult to know exactly how strong his voting record is though. But considering that Petrov never won the Directorates Best Forward award it does not seem that unlikely that Petrov never led the All-Star voting among forwards either. Considering that the Media All-Star vote and the Directorates vote relatively often had different selections as the top forward this is far from certain though. Whether Petrov ever led the voting or not I would still say that his voting record clearly belongs in the truly elite group. Especially considering that he also had some strong results outside of his First Team All-Star tournaments.

Vladimir Martinec: 1st (1974), 2nd (1976), 3rd (1975), Top 3 (1977), Tied for 9th (1972)

Martinec peak period in 1974-1977 is really very impressive with top 3 finishes at four straight tournaments. Four consecutive top 3 finishes is something that only Makarov and Firsov managed to beat out among forwards. The only problem with his voting record is that Martinec outside of that peak period did not add much of value compared to the other players with the strongest voting records. Still I would say that the strenght of that peak period firmly puts him among Kharlamov and Petrov in the second tier of players when it comes to WHC All-Star voting records.

Vaclav Nedomansky: 2nd (1974), 3rd (1969), 3rd (1970), 5th (1971), 7th (1965), Tied for 7th (1968)

Out of the players that we know for sure did not lead the WHC All-Star voting at any tournament Nedomansky clearly has the strongest voting record. Three times top 3, four times top 5 and six times top 7 is a very deep and strong voting record. With this said I personally don´t think that Nedomansky quite belongs in the Kharlamov/Petrov/Martinec tier of WHC All-Star voting records but rather the tier below them.

Vladimir Krutov: 1st (1987), 2nd (1986), Top 3 (1983), 5th (1985)

For being a 4-time First Team All-Star Krutovs voting record is not overly strong. Mainly due to his 1985 selection being a rather weak one with him only finishing 5th in the overall voting but still getting the LW spot on the All-Star team. Still three top 3 finishes and four top 5 finishes is a rather strong record. Especially when taking into account the strenght of his 1987 tournament where he dominated the voting.

Alexander Yakushev: 1st (1975), 3rd (1972), 3rd (1974)

Yakushev has a strong voting record for only being a 2-time First Team All-Star having three top 3 finishes including one first place finish. Just like Kharlamov once missed out on a place on the All-Star team due to being stuck behind peak Firsov at LW despite finishing top 3 in the overall voting Yakushev had the exact same thing happen to him in 1972 when he was stuck behind peak Kharlamov at LW. The only problem with Yakushevs voting record is that he outside of his peak in 1972-1975 did not get much voting support and the lack of more strong voting finishes is what in my opinion keeps Yakushev from belonging to the Nedomansky/Krutov/Mikhailov tier even if he is rather close to them.

Like I said earlier I think that Mikhailovs voting record definitely is a strong one for "only" being a 2-time First Team All-Star but I would still say that he belongs in the bottom half of the top 10 forwards when it comes to WHC All-Star voting.

3) Strong and deep SPOTY voting record: Aside from his great longevity when it comes to SPOTY voting Maltsev also did very well in his strongest 3, 5 and 7 seasons as him finishing clearly ahead of his contemporary Mikhailov in all 3 categories when it comes to voting shares suggests. And it is again worth noting that Maltsev recieved votes in 14 seasons while Mikhailov "only" did so in 10 seasons. Here is Maltsevs voting record in detail.

Alexander Maltsev
71/72: 130/180 = 0.722
80/81: 121/222 = 0.545
69/70: 104/204 = 0.510
70/71: 70/204 = 0.343
73/74: 38/168 = 0.226
79/80: 38/207 = 0.184
77/78: 33/219 = 0.151
75/76: 28/192 = 0.146
81/82: 17/222 = 0.077
76/77: 9/228 = 0.039
68/69: 5/165 = 0.030
82/83: 7/243 = 0.029
74/75: 5/195 = 0.026
72/73: 2/177 = 0.011
3-year average: 0.592
5-year average: 0.469
7-year average: 0.383

And here is how his voting record compares to the other top forwards when it comes to voting shares.

3-year average
1 Sergey Makarov 0.747
2 Anatoly Firsov 0.650
3 Vladimir Krutov 0.630
4 Valery Kharlamov 0.628
5 Alexander Maltsev 0.592
6 Boris Mikhailov 0.434
7 Vyacheslav Starshinov 0.432
8 Vladimir Petrov 0.411
9 Helmuts Balderis 0.304
10 Vyacheslav Bykov 0.303

5-year average
1 Sergey Makarov 0.660
2 Valery Kharlamov 0.522
3 Vladimir Krutov 0.516
4 Alexander Maltsev 0.469
5 Anatoly Firsov 0.418
6 Boris Mikhailov 0.358
7 Vladimir Petrov 0.287
8 Vyacheslav Starshinov 0.264 (Only recieved votes in 4 seasons)
9 Helmuts Balderis 0.192
10 Vyacheslav Bykov 0.189

7-year average
1 Sergey Makarov 0.551
2 Valery Kharlamov 0.440
3 Vladimir Krutov 0.388
4 Alexander Maltsev 0.383
5 Boris Mikhailov 0.316
6 Anatoly Firsov 0.299 (Only recieved votes in 5 seasons)
7 Vladimir Petrov 0.218
8 Vyacheslav Starshinov 0.189 (Only recieved votes in 4 seasons)
9 Igor Larionov 0.144
10 Alexander Yakushev 0.140

As you can see both the domestic and the international observers seems to have favoured Maltsev over Mikhailov. Now there are perfectly valid reasons for why Mikhailov still should rank ahead of Maltsev (performances versus North Americans and Czechoslovakia) but to me there is not much separating the two.

 

[Captain Bowie]

Sure, Dionne did it for longer even if his peak wasn't really any higher. But he also went in around #60, terrible playoff resume and all. Dionne being comfortably in the third quarter of the list while Stastny is an afterthought for inclusion at all just seems off to me. But at a distance both are offensive guys from the same era and Dionne was a little bit better at it, so fair enough if there's only room for one of them.

I can't agree that Selanne or especially St. Louis were better offensive players though. Stastny's best seasons easily win either of St. Louis' Art Ross trophies, and he cracked the top 5 in points just as often as St. Louis despite facing significantly tougher competition in the early 80s. Selanne's high-end years in the 90s seem on par with Stastny's, but unless you're putting a stiff premium on goals over assists, I'm not sure you can really say he was actually better. Selanne's renaissance years after the lockout and Stastny's pre-NHL years probably wash.

I could probably go either way on Stasnty/Ullman. I'm still not sure Ullman was as good as Stastny offensively, even factoring in that Ullman did most of his scoring at even strength. As I discovered last round, Stastny's production is more ES-heavy than you might suspect in some of his earlier seasons. The high praise NHL coaches had for Ullman's forechecking and him often carrying weaker wingers swings things back in his favour though.

I don't think this is true (assuming your not just talking raw numbers across eras, I give you more credit than that).

HR's adjusted points have Stastny's 81/82 season at 102, while Marty has seasons of 114, 109, 107 and 104 by the same metric. This is not a perfect stat, but certainly shows something there worth noticing. I'm interested what you used to come to your conclusion.

 

[DN28]

First things firsts.. I´d like to encourage voters to consider prefering Maltsev / Martinec over Vasiliev / Holecek.

Maltsev has better SPOTY voting shares. Taken from these posts made by Batis: Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Preliminary Discussion Thread (With a Vengeance)
Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Preliminary Discussion Thread (With a Vengeance)

Soviet player of the year voting shares (67/68-89/90)

3-year average:
Alexander Maltsev 0.592
Valery Vasiliev 0.187

5-year average:
Alexander Maltsev 0.469
Valery Vasiliev 0.154

7-year average:
Alesander Maltsev 0.383
Valery Vasiliev 0.129

Difference is too large to only be assigned to any possible anti-defensemen bias in the Soviet voting.

Since Maltsev and Vasiliev were born in the same year, we also might simply look at the year-by-year SPOTY finishes and compare:
1969: Maltsev 10th, Vasiliev no votes
1970: Maltsev 2nd, Vasiliev no votes
1971: Maltsev 3rd, Vasiliev no votes
1972: Maltsev 1st, Vasiliev no votes
1973: Vasiliev 6th, Maltsev 9th
1974: Vasiliev 3rd, Maltsev 4th
1975: Vasiliev 6th, Maltsev 8th
1976: Maltsev 4th, Vasiliev 12th
1977: Maltsev 6th, Vasiliev 7th
1978: Maltsev 4th, Vasiliev 14th
1979: Vasiliev 2nd, Maltsev no votes
1980: Maltsev 4th, Vasiliev 5th
1981: Maltsev 2nd, Vasiliev 6th
1982: Maltsev 7th, Vasiliev 8th
1983: Maltsev 7th, Vasiliev no votes

As has been said by Batis, Maltsev has that unique longevity card in his hand by getting into top 10 of Soviets 14 times in 15-year timeframe. Of course, Maltsev has also significantly better international recognition than Vasiliev despite higher competition.
_____________________

Martinec has better GS voting results than Holecek:

1970: Holeček 12th, Martinec 17th
1971: Holeček 5th, Martinec 13th
1972: Holeček 5th, Martinec 7th
1973: Martinec 1st, Holeček 5th
1974: Holeček 1st, Martinec 3rd
1975: Martinec 1st, Holeček 2nd
1976: Martinec 1st, Holeček 2nd
1977: Martinec 4th, Holeček 8th
1978: Holeček 2nd, Martinec 7th
1979: Martinec 1st, Holeček no votes (playing out his career in Germany)
1980: Martinec 5th, Holeček no votes (Germany...)
1981: Martinec 6th, Holeček no votes (Germany...)

Golden Stick trophy was created in 1969 where none of these two received any votes. By the virtue of being a National Team backup goalie in 1966, 1967, I estimate Holeček would likely finish somewhere between 11th to 15th or 16th in these two early seasons. Martinec´s record is better, although the difference is smaller than in the case of Maltsev x Vasiliev. But the important fact to take into consideration is that Holeček was considered the best player of his nation once. Vladimír Martinec four times, which is the highest amount of Golden Sticks by anyone not named Jágr or Hašek. So... Holeček has an impressive 8-season stretch of being top 10 CSSR player (7 times top 5 player). Martinec has a 10-season stretch of being top 10 CSSR player (+ those 4 actual wins).

Furthermore, we have a benefit of knowing full results of that big 1998 'Best Czech Hockey Player of the Century' poll:

"The best Czech player of century"

1. DOMINIK HAŠEK 472
2. JAROMÍR JÁGR 357
3. VLADIMÍR ZÁBRODSKÝ 240
4. VLADIMÍR MARTINEC 235
5. IVAN HLINKA 181
6. VLASTIMIL BUBNÍK 160
7. JAN SUCHÝ 154
8. JIŘÍ HOLÍK 136
9. JOSEF MALEČEK 121
10. VÁCLAV NEDOMANSKÝ 98
11. Jiří Holeček 97
12. Bohumil Modrý 93
13. Vladimír Růžička 71
14. František Pospíšil 68
15. Jaroslav Holík 54
16. Josef Černý 41
17. Milan Nový 35
18. Jaroslav Drobný 20
19. Jiří Dopita 14
20. Miroslav Vlach 11
21.-22. Stanislav Bacílek 9
Robert Reichel 9
23.-25. Jaroslav Pitner 8
Vladimír Kobranov 8
Stanislav Konopásek 8
26.-27. František Tikal 6
František Pácalt 6
28.-29. Jiří Králík 5
Oldřich Machač 5
30.-32. Josef Mikoláš 3
Jiří Bubla 3
Jaroslav Pouzar 3
33.-36. Martin Ručinský 2
Jiří Lála 2
Bronislav Danda 2
Jan Havel 2
37.-39. Petr Svoboda 1
Vladimír Nadrchal 1
Karel Gut 1

Source: Dominik Hašek je nejlepším hráčem všech dob - iDNES.cz

Martinec in late 90s voted as the best player of his generation with only Hašek, Jágr and old 40s/50s Czech hockey legend Vladimír Zábrodský ahead of him. Jiří Holeček just one single point short of top 10.

This poll is obviously not to be mistaken for 'the one and only true ranking' of the Czech players, but it is a good indication of how are players retrospectively valued and remembered. The Panel was intentionally chosen to be as representive as it could get, since the poll was taken during the celebration 100 years of Czech hockey (Czech hockey association was founded in October or November 1908). There are former National Team players, National Team coaches, well-respected hockey historians, longtime sports writers, internationally recognized referees, and some other people closely related to CSSR hockey for a lot of years.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

I don't think this is true (assuming your not just talking raw numbers across eras, I give you more credit than that).

HR's adjusted points have Stastny's 81/82 season at 102, while Marty has seasons of 114, 109, 107 and 104 by the same metric. This is not a perfect stat, but certainly shows something there worth noticing. I'm interested what you used to come to your conclusion.

I look at it slightly different. Stastny's 81-82 season had him third in scoring behind Gretzky and peak Bossy. He was second only to Gretzky the next season, ahead of Bossy . Only 7 points behind Gretzky-aided Coffey (who was 2nd) the year after that. Then in 85-86, the only guys ahead of him are Gretzky, Lemieux, Coffey, Kurri, Bossy. Stastny peaked at the same time as a murderers row of all-time great scorers also did.

St. Louis beat out a 20-year old Kovalchuk and an aging Joe Sakic in 2004. Hard for me to believe Stastny doesn't win that Art Ross. Then you've got years like 2011 where St. Louis is just five points off the scoring title, but in an incredibly weak year where Crosby and Malkin both get injured and Ovechkin and Backstrom start their weird mid-career slumps. An absolutely ancient Teemu Selanne cracks the top 10 in scoring with 9 missed games. Then you've got the much-discussed 2013 season where division-heavy schedules in a 48 game season greatly benefit certain players (in this case, St. Louis being one of them). Leaderboard/trophy counting with these two players leads to an outcome that just betrays reality IMO.

 

[Nick Hansen]

And by that, he clearly destroys Iginla as well.

He was a pretty big guy who could hit and throw the gauntlets competently but I think some are extending that to him being some kind of two-way force or something. Does anyone remember a single rememberable hit by him, by the way?

 

[Hockey Outsider]

One of us should write a preemptive response to the inevitable "how can Francis not be a top 100 player since he's the 5th highest scoring player ever"? I might have time to do that later in the week.

 

[Michael Farkas]

Orrrrrrr....vote him in and not write anything.


*ducks a thrown bottle*

 

[wetcoast]

The player at 100 on this list is kinda moot anyways sincesome a current player will surpass whomever is selected at 100 be it Karlsson, Doughty, Bergeron or Toews....well it would probably be McDavid in as little as a year or two actually.

 

[Captain Bowie]

I look at it slightly different. Stastny's 81-82 season had him third in scoring behind Gretzky and peak Bossy. He was second only to Gretzky the next season, ahead of Bossy . Only 7 points behind Gretzky-aided Coffey (who was 2nd) the year after that. Then in 85-86, the only guys ahead of him are Gretzky, Lemieux, Coffey, Kurri, Bossy. Stastny peaked at the same time as a murderers row of all-time great scorers also did.

St. Louis beat out a 20-year old Kovalchuk and an aging Joe Sakic in 2004. Hard for me to believe Stastny doesn't win that Art Ross. Then you've got years like 2011 where St. Louis is just five points off the scoring title, but in an incredibly weak year where Crosby and Malkin both get injured and Ovechkin and Backstrom start their weird mid-career slumps. An absolutely ancient Teemu Selanne cracks the top 10 in scoring with 9 missed games. Then you've got the much-discussed 2013 season where division-heavy schedules in a 48 game season greatly benefit certain players (in this case, St. Louis being one of them). Leaderboard/trophy counting with these two players leads to an outcome that just betrays reality IMO.

He may have had tough competition in the scoring races, but he didn't just get edged out. He was never close to Gretzky, not that many were. But in a Gretzky-less world, he has 1 Art Ross by a narrow margin by 3 points over Denis Savard.

Don't get me wrong, I have him in the middle of my 10 this round, but I don't see his offence way ahead of Marty's.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

The player at 100 on this list is kinda moot anyways sincesome a current player will surpass whomever is selected at 100 be it Karlsson, Doughty, Bergeron or Toews....well it would probably be McDavid in as little as a year or two actually.

McDavid should be 100.

At least that would give the impression the group at least realizes his unreal talents.

But alas, that ship has sailed.

 

[Dennis Bonvie]

One of us should write a preemptive response to the inevitable "how can Francis not be a top 100 player since he's the 5th highest scoring player ever"? I might have time to do that later in the week.

Mike Gartner is the 7th leading goal scorer of all-time and just mentioning his name in this context brings ridicule.

 

[Kyle McMahon]

He may have had tough competition in the scoring races, but he didn't just get edged out. He was never close to Gretzky, not that many were. But in a Gretzky-less world, he has 1 Art Ross by a narrow margin by 3 points over Denis Savard.

Don't get me wrong, I have him in the middle of my 10 this round, but I don't see his offence way ahead of Marty's.

Well of course he was never close to Gretzky, but he was indeed only edged out by any of the other mortals in several seasons, peak Mike Bossy among them. I wouldn't classify Stastny as "way ahead" of St. Louis either...just "ahead" of him.

 

[ted2019]

I don't think Stastny was a must-include, but I do find it perplexing that other one-way offensive players from the post-WHA era in Malkin, Dionne, Selanne, Kane, and St. Louis were treated so much better. Malkin and Kane have the playoffs trump card that they can play...not really sure what advantage the other three would have on Stastny though.

If Stastny were to ultimately get the final spot, I think his case would need to be aided by a feeling that the list would have an "incomplete" feeling if no pre-Hasek/Jagr Czech players were represented. Stastny is mainly considered an NHL player, but did have some strong years behind the Iron Curtain as well. Not as good as Martinec or Holocek obviously, but his NHL career would certainly bridge most if not all of that gap I would think.

The other available candidate that I feel gets a boost out of not having his "demographic" represented yet, so to speak, is Russell Bowie. Hod Stuart, Frank McGee, or any other contemporary you care to mention did not make it into the debate, leaving Bowie as the lone option to recognize the pre-NHA/semi-amateur era of the sport.

I had McGee on my list and Hod Stuart. How about Doug Bentely or Tommy Phillips? Was hoping to see those players involved in the discussion.

 

[sr edler]

Are people who are high on old school media/coach/executive/peer favorites like Hod Stuart & Eddie Gerard also high on new school media/coach/executive/peer favorites like say Toews?

I'm asking because I got this thought in my head that the same kind of mentality/psychological aspects are present/involved in that kind of public evaluation.

 

[MXD]

One of us should write a preemptive response to the inevitable "how can Francis not be a top 100 player since he's the 5th highest scoring player ever"? I might have time to do that later in the week.

- Forwards are significantly better placed than D-Men and Goalies to add up points
- Despite being the 5th highest scoring player ever, he was never considered amongst the five best hockey players at any point in his career. ... And I'm quite certain he was never seen as being amongst the ten best players either.

 

[wetcoast]

Francis probably was never a top 5 or top 10 player in the world but he was better offensively than Keon and a very good defensive player as well.

Of course Francis gets a it lost in the offensive onslaught from player from Europe.

Comparing Francis and Keon in an apples to apples scenario would have Francis looking really good no doubt.