Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 21

Discussion in 'The History of Hockey' started by quoipourquoi, Mar 31, 2019.

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  1. quoipourquoi Goaltender

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    Procedure
    • You will be presented with 10+ players based on their ranking in the Round 1 aggregate list (10 players plus anyone with 99% of the voting points of the 10th ranked player)
    • Players will be listed in alphabetical order to avoid creating bias
    • You will submit ten names in a ranked order, #1 through #10, without ties via PM to quoipourquoi
    • Results of this vote will be posted after each voting cycle, but the individual ballots themselves will remain secret until the completion of this project
    • The top-4 players will be added to The List in Vote 1, while the top-5 players will be added to The List in subsequent voting cycles (#1-4 in Vote 1, #5-9 in Vote 2, #10-14 in Vote 3, #15-19 in Vote 4, #20-24 in Vote 5, #25-29 in Vote 6, #30-34 in Vote 7, #35-39 in Vote 8, #40-44 in Vote 9, #45-49 in Vote 10, #50-54 in Vote 11, #55-59 in Vote 12, #60-64 in Vote 13, #65-69 in Vote 14, #70-74 in Vote 15, #75-79 in Vote 16, #80-84 in Vote 17, #85-89 in Vote 18, #90-94 in Vote 19, #95-99 in Vote 20)
    • A 100th player will be added to The List in Vote 21 from an expanded group of 15 candidates

    Eligible Voters
    • Ballots from voters who have submitted an approved Round 1 ranking of 120 players (which was used to shape the aggregate list) will have their votes tabulated in the History of Hockey ranking
    • Art of Sedinery, Batis, BenchBrawl, blogofmike, bobholly39, Canadiens1958, ChiTownPhilly, DannyGallivan, Dennis Bonvie, Dr John Carlson, ehhedler, Hockey Outsider, Iceman, ImporterExporter, Johnny Engine, JoseTheodore2002, kruezer, Kyle McMahon, Mike Farkas, MXD, pappyline, quoipourquoi, ResilientBeast, Sentinel, seventieslord, steve141, ted1971, TheDevilMadeMe, TheGeneral, The Macho Man, tony d, VanIslander

    Guidelines
    • Respect each other. No horseplay or sophistry!
    • Stay on topic and don't get caught up in talking about non-eligible players
    • Participate, but retain an open mind throughout the discussion
    • Do not speculate who cast any particular ballot. Do not make judgments about the mindset of whoever cast that particular ballot. All individual ballots will be revealed at the end of the project.

    House Rules
    • Any attempts to derail a discussion thread with disrespect to old-time hockey will be met with frontier justice
    • We encourage interpositional discussion (forward vs. defenseman vs. goaltender) as opposed to the safer and somewhat redundant intrapositional debates. Overemphasizing a tired single-position argument like, I don’t know, Harvey/Lidstrom, will only be briefly tolerated before one is asked to move on to a less tedious comparison.
    • Take a drink when someone mentions the number of hockey registrations in a given era
    • Finish your drink when someone mentions that goaltenders cannot be compared to skaters

    The actual voting period will open up on Friday, April 5th at midnight and continue through Sunday, April 7th at 8:59pm. Eastern time zone. I will release the results of the vote on Monday, April 8th.


    Vote 21 Candidates
    • Alexander Maltsev
    • Bernie Parent
    • Doug Gilmour
    • Eddie Gerard
    • Erik Karlsson
    • Jarome Iginla
    • Jiri Holecek
    • Johnny Bower
    • Norm Ullman
    • Pavel Bure
    • Peter Stastny
    • Ron Francis
    • Russell Bowie
    • Scott Niedermayer
    • Serge Savard
    • Sid Abel
    • Toe Blake
    • Tony Esposito
    • Valeri Vasiliev
    • Vladimir Martinec
     
  2. GlitchMarner Typical malevolent, devious & vile Maple Leafs fan

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    Kind of surprised to see Dougie here. Anyone going to vote for him?
     
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  3. BenchBrawl joueur de hockey

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    Eddie Gerard deserves to be included.His combination of star power and playoff heroics are unmatched this round.He is the closest player left embodying "greatness".

    Serge Savard is a close second for me.Sad that at least one of them won't make it.
     
  4. Hockey Outsider Registered User

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    Hart trophy shares (5%+ vote share only)

    Player1st2nd3rd4th5th6th7th+Total
    Tony Esposito11114
    Jarome Iginla213
    Doug Gilmour1113
    Sid Abel112
    Bernie Parent112
    Norm Ullman112
    Johnny Bower112
    Pavel Bure112
    Scott Niedermayer22
    Toe Blake11
    Erik Karlsson11
    Ron Francis11
    Peter Stastny0
    Serge Savard0
    I've listed the 14 players who spent all (or substantially all) of their careers in NHL - Russell Bowie, Eddie Gerard, Jiri Holocek, Alexander Maltsev, Vladmir Martinec, and Valeri Vasiliev are excluded.

    Carried forward from last round - note that in 2002, Jarome Iginla tied for the Hart trophy, but he lost it to Jose Theodore, who had more first-place votes. This is the only time where I'm breaking a tie in the Hart trophy data that I've been presenting.

    Carried forward from last round - Peter Stastny being the only forward here without any "significant" Hart seasons doesn't look great. But keep in mind that he received Hart votes five times in his career. He had the misfortune of peaking at the same time and Gretzky, and voters only had three spots on their ballot each year - so it was tough for another offensive forward to fight for the last two votes.

    New entrant Doug Gilmour looks great based on this metric. He was one of only a small handful of remaining players from WWII onwards with three "significant" Hart trophy seasons (the others were Ryan Getzlaf, Claude Giroux, Rod Langway, and Markus Naslund - I suspect that Connor McDavid will join this list when the awards for the 2018-19 season are announced in June).
     
    Last edited: Apr 1, 2019
  5. Hockey Outsider Registered User

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    VsX summary

    Player1st2nd3rd4th5th6th7th8th9th10th7YR10YR
    Norm Ullman10010094.492.385.777.876.275.872.57289.584.7
    Peter Stastny10098.394.686.584.780.774.171.361.256.688.480.8
    Ron Francis 99.2 95.6 86.1 85.6 84.3 82.6 78.3 77.7 77.5 75.7 87.4 84.2
    Sid Abel10010092.490.776.876.27573.358.314.887.375.8
    Jarome Iginla106.792.586.983.982.580.97470.169.168.686.781.5
    Toe Blake106.885.983.783.383.381.979.47572.762.186.381.4
    Pavel Bure10098.995.889.276.774.361.451.750.528.885.272.7
    Doug Gilmour 97.2 92.5 85.8 77.7 75.2 75.0 70.5 70.4 65.6 61.2 82.0 77.1
    Erik Karlsson92.185.180.479.876.760.845.524.623.974.356.9
    Scott Niedermayer 62.6 62.1 60.5 59.4 53.6 44.0 43.0 40.4 38.3 37.5 55.0 50.2
    Serge Savard49.64039.538.537.5362928.419.817.938.633.6
    Only 11 players listed here - six of the candidates spent their careers outside of the NHL, and then there are also three NHL goalies.

    Not very much separating any of the forwards offensively. Sid Abel's 10th best season is brutal - but keep in mind he missed essentially three full seasons for WWII (ages 25 through 27).

    As I mentioned previously - Erik Karlsson is active. This season isn't going to impact his 7-year score. His 10-year score should increase to about 61 (I doubt this is going to materially impact anyone's decision, but will give full disclosure anyway).

    For those curious, the players with the best 7-year VsX who never came up for voting are Sweeney Schriner (31st), Adam Oates (36th), Jean Ratelle (39th), Marty Barry (40th), and Busher Jackson (42nd). The players with the best 10-year scores are Oates (29th), Ratelle (30th), Mark Recch (34th), John Bucyk (37th), and Alex Delvecchio (43rd).
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2019
  6. Captain Bowie Registered User

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    I did not rank any of the new candidates. The last spot to me probably comes down to Esposito, Iginla, Gerard, and Bowie.

    Are we still ranking 10 players?
     
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  7. Hockey Outsider Registered User

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    Because I have time now (and likely won't have time later in the week), I'll do the last of my "standard" posts - playoff R-On/R-Off. There are five new players this week, three of whom we have data for.

    Doug Gilmour

    SeasonGames R ON R OFF INCREASE
    1983-8411 1.29 0.8158%
    1984-853 0.33 1.00-67%
    1985-8619 1.16 1.160%
    1986-876 1.25 0.22463%
    1987-8810 1.33 0.41224%
    1988-8922 2.20 1.1986%
    1989-906 0.45 2.13-79%
    1990-917 1.25 0.62103%
    1992-9321 2.23 0.79181%
    1993-9418 1.27 0.61109%
    1994-957 1.67 0.47254%
    1995-966 0.43 0.44-4%
    1996-9710 0.82 1.00-18%
    1997-986 5.00 0.50900%
    1999-005 0.67 1.50-56%
    2000-0113 0.89 1.54-42%
    2001-0212 0.80 0.83-4%
    Yes, his numbers from 1996 onwards are pretty bad, but for the first eleven playoff runs of his career, Doug Gilmour looked exceptional according to this metric. He delivered excellent results during three of his four best playoff runs (1986 was the sole exception, when he merely matched his teammates' performance). He really was as good as the Toronto hype machine suggested in 1993 and 1994, and he was also strong on a star-studded Flames team in 1989. Gilmour had one of the weakest supporting casts of any forward with 100+ playoff games. His 1.40 "out-performance ratio" is one of the highest of all time (he's in the same stratosphere as elite two-way forwards like Patrice Bergeron and Henrik Zetterberg).

    Ron Francis

    SeasonGames R ON R OFF INCREASE
    1985-8610 0.80 2.00-60%
    1986-876 0.67 0.92-27%
    1987-886 2.67 0.50433%
    1988-894 0.50 0.80-38%
    1989-907 1.33 1.1120%
    1990-9124 1.87 1.4627%
    1991-9221 1.62 1.0062%
    1992-9312 1.50 1.2817%
    1993-946 0.71 0.5043%
    1994-9512 1.23 0.50146%
    1995-9611 1.50 1.0050%
    1996-975 0.30 1.00-70%
    1997-986 6.00 0.421340%
    1998-993#DIV/0! 0.58#DIV/0!
    2000-013 - 0.31-100%
    2001-0223 0.82 1.29-37%
    2003-0412 1.00 0.956%
    Francis played in two very different situations - one as the leader on a weak franchise, and the other as an excellent complementary player on a powerhouse team. In general, his results were much better in Pittsburgh, compared to Hartford/Carolina. Part of that might be due to match-ups - as a Hurricane, he consistently drew the toughest match-ups, while he was very rarely the focal point as a Penguin. I think this supports my impression of Francis - he wasn't quite a superstar in his own right, but he's one of the very best complementary players post-expansion. Since he played more than half of playoff games in Pittsburgh, and since he out-performed the rest of his teammates so consistently, he ends up with one of the highest out-performance ratios of all-time. He ranks on par with Brendan Shanahan (another guy who I'd describe as an ideal complementary player), Jari Kurri, and Doug Gilmour.

    Scott Niedermayer

    SeasonGames R ON R OFF INCREASE
    1992-935 0.57 0.563%
    1993-9420 0.93 1.04-11%
    1994-9520 2.10 2.005%
    1996-9710 1.00 0.8320%
    1997-986 1.00 1.000%
    1998-997 0.50 1.14-56%
    1999-0022 1.38 1.48-6%
    2000-0121 1.58 1.487%
    2001-026 0.50 1.33-63%
    2002-0324 1.79 1.3236%
    2003-045 0.29 1.33-79%
    2005-0616 1.08 1.69-36%
    2006-0721 1.14 1.73-34%
    2007-086 0.50 1.00-50%
    2008-0913 1.00 1.08-8%
    Niedermayer's results are consistently disappointing. His best playoff run was in 2003, when he was probably the second-most deserving Conn Smythe candidate. When he actually won the Smythe in 2007, he performed well below the team's average (I know Pronger missed two playoff games, but his level of performance was vastly superior to Niedermayer's). Niedermayer consistently played on strong teams (his R-Off career average is better than Lidstrom's, and only slightly weaker than Savard and Lapointe's) and although he performed well (an R-On of 1.14 is very good - roughly on par with Ray Bourque and Brad Park), it's troubling seeing him consistently outplayed by his teammates. I don't know if looking at the context (ie match-ups) really helps him, as he usually had other defensemen taking the very toughest assignments. He's one of only three HOF defensemen with an out-performance ratio of under 0.90 (the others being Fetisov, Housley, and Coffey).

    PLAYERGAMESR-ONR-OFFRATIO
    Erik Karlsson481.190.77 0.55
    Doug Gilmour182 1.20 0.86 0.40
    Ron Francis171 1.25 0.94 0.33
    Peter Stastny930.970.75 0.29
    Jarome Iginla811.130.94 0.20
    Pavel Bure641.141.09 0.05
    Serge Savard1301.351.38- 0.02
    Norm Ullman870.730.79- 0.08
    Scott Niedermayer202 1.14 1.32- 0.14
     
    Last edited: Mar 31, 2019
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  8. Kyle McMahon Registered User

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    Gonna be tough to choose just one of these guys as the final inclusion. Abel and Gerard are my two front runners. The inclusion of Bowie would make it feel more all-encompassing from a history perspective, but perhaps so would one of the great Iron Curtain Czechs. A shame we've run out of room for all but one of them.
     
  9. sr edler whom

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    In my top 10? Yeah, probably. Despite me likening him to Nemo from Finding Nemo earlier in the project.
     
  10. VMBM Touch a mountain... m'kay?

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    Maltsev and Martinec :clap:

    I'm not even saying that both or even either of them should definitely be voted in, but it's good that they are discussed at least. However, if you compare Maltsev's and e.g. Boris Mikhailov's resumes, would it be the right time for Maltsev's inclusion? On paper, he maybe looks the superior player.
     
  11. ChiTownPhilly Not Too Soft

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    I did- Martinec & Maltsev. Ron Francis was a late-ish cut.
    I guess I got all of them as upper-half guys.
    I hope so.

    Independent of whether you think Vasiliev, Holeček, Martinec and Maltsev are worthy of your ballot, can we at least all agree that they ALL should have been in the Hall of Fame more than a few yesterdays ago?!?
     
  12. TheDevilMadeMe Registered User

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    So basically, among NHL players, Ullman has the best scoring numbers this round, AND he scored most of them at even strength with subpar linemates, AND we have numerous contemporary sources that indicate he was at least a good defensive player.

    Only reason he isn't a slam dunk #1 this round is because Martinec and Maltsev finally appeared.
     
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  13. sr edler whom

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    I didn't rank Niedermayer on my preliminary list but he's a subtle player. From a baby faced rosy cheeks (supposed) young gun in the early/mid 90s to that calm/poised old grey beard presence that made Alfie's temper/patience boil over in the mid 00s. Perhaps I'll even rank him this round, although pretty low, and not that it matters anyway.
     
  14. ted2019 Know your History

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    Since 4 of my top 5 from the last round made it, I'll have to check out the newbies and see if anyone is worth (mostly Maltsev and to a lesser extent, Martinec)
     
  15. Dirt 101 Dirt, the famous Nevada railway cat

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    Gerard or bust.
     
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  16. Mike Farkas Grace Personified

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    Martinec made my original top 100...Maltsev did not. I would be eager to be put in my place on that as the week goes on...

    No Jacques Lemaire, Roy Worters, or Ching Johnson...? *shrug*
     
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  17. quoipourquoi Goaltender

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    Yes.
     
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  18. MXD Original #4

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    Wow. You sure you wrote that?
     
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  19. Nick Hansen Registered User

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    What about Ebbie Goodfellow?
     
  20. MXD Original #4

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    Better than a few players up for voting, and possibly my unofficial best unranked D.

    But I don't think he had any chance in that group.
     
  21. bobholly39 Registered User

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    Looks like at least 1 2x Ross/Pearson winner won't be making the list
     
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  22. DannyGallivan Your world frightens and confuses me

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    Hrumph... Gilmour ahead of Hawerchuk. Silliness.
     
  23. overpass Registered User

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    Niedermayer had a lot of Scott Stevens and Chris Pronger in his R-OFF.

    I agree you’d like to see a better R-ON, considering the quality of forwards and goaltending he played with.
     
  24. wetcoast Registered User

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    Gilmour, Francis and Ullman all look better than Keon who is in and frankly maybe Ullman is the only guy with a shot in the top 100 given the posts last round.
     
  25. wetcoast Registered User

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    I doubt Hawerchuk would get any traction after seeing how Stastny has fared.
     

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