Top-100 Hockey Players of All-Time - Round 2, Vote 21

MXD

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Oct 27, 2005
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Sorry, but it's the first time I every see anything about Gadsby playing any other position, so unless solid evidence is brought in support of that fact, I'll consider this proposition nothing else than pure BS.
 
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Canadiens1958

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Nov 30, 2007
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How is it debatable that Gadsby played defense during his last post-season all star year? I've never seen it suggested anywhere that he played any position besides defense.

The problem with supposing that media portrayal often doesn't stand up to critical analysis is that for players of a certain vintage, the stat sheet is the only other piece of evidence. Declaring the media's view of Player X from 1920 as faulty based on research conducted a century after the fact doesn't strike me as a scholarly course of action. We're trying to piece together a complete picture long after the fact; contemporary media accounts and the statistical record are two separate pieces of the puzzle. Sometimes they corroborate each other, sometimes not so much.

Gadsby's last season, the Wings went mainly with a five forward PP - extent remains to be determined.

As a result PP scoring for defencemen and forwards were skewed. Misinterpreted by some.
 

Kyle McMahon

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May 10, 2006
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Gadsby's last season, the Wings went mainly with a five forward PP - extent remains to be determined.

As a result PP scoring for defencemen and forwards were skewed. Misinterpreted by some.

I'm still not sure how it could be interpreted as Gadsby playing any position besides defense. He had 12 points in 61 games in his final post-season all-star season (64-65), highly doubtful he would have spent time playing forward unless evidence to the contrary is presented.
 

blogofmike

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Dec 16, 2010
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Also, Bobby Clarke vs. Not Bobby Clarke.
Also, The Flyers ranged between 4th and 6th offensively for those two big seasons (in a 18 teams league). Gardiner's team was, what, 8th? 9th? 10th? I say that, because I can't remember how many teams there were back then.

The GF was brought up to explain the return trip to the Finals. Winning is obviously a function of both GF and GA.

Goalies are obviously much more influential on the GA side of the equation. So regardless of winning and losing, upon the unfortunate end of Gardiner's tenure, the 1934 Vezina winning Charlie Gardiner was replaced by the 1935 Vezina winning Lorne Chabot.

One of the things Bernie has going for him is the high amount of PK time the Flyers' style created. If we remember back to the Brodeur discussion, Parent's Vezinas came in years where the Flyers were a clear #1 in penalties and PPOA. While we don't have PPOA data on nhl.com, we do have penalty data. Using minor penalties as a loose estimate of PK time, Chicago had the second fewest in 1931, 1933 and 1934, and 3rd least in 1932. So while they weren't quite the Brodeur Devils in terms of minimizing penalties, they were most likely pretty good at avoiding PK situations.

The counter to the "Two Seasons" argument would probably be this: Player Season Finder | Hockey-Reference.com

Bernie Parent played more NHL games as a goaltender from 1967-68 through 1974-75 than all but 2 goalies. Account for his WHA sojourn, and he looks like he played the most pro games as a goalie during that span. In the NHL, that's a workhorse-like 394 games at a .922/2.41 clip. Considering that Philly took nearly a thousand extra minor penalties during this span than Chicago, Parent actually matches up pretty well with peak Tony O. Obviously the longevity goes to Tony Esposito. But the playoffs easily go to Parent.
 
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MXD

Original #4
Oct 27, 2005
50,797
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Why are you guys talking about the great Gadsby, he's already voted in?

Because someone threw shit at the wall hoping it sticked, and some of us deemed it necessary to clean up the mess before it stank too much?
 

wetcoast

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Nov 20, 2018
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How is it debatable that Gadsby played defense during his last post-season all star year? I've never seen it suggested anywhere that he played any position besides defense.

The problem with supposing that media portrayal often doesn't stand up to critical analysis is that for players of a certain vintage, the stat sheet is the only other piece of evidence. Declaring the media's view of Player X from 1920 as faulty based on research conducted a century after the fact doesn't strike me as a scholarly course of action. We're trying to piece together a complete picture long after the fact; contemporary media accounts and the statistical record are two separate pieces of the puzzle. Sometimes they corroborate each other, sometimes not so much.

I posted it when Gadsby was first up.

The number of games for NYR Dmen that year was around 55ish more than the year before.

I'll have some time on the weekend and will post more in depth on it then.
 

Kyle McMahon

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May 10, 2006
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I posted it when Gadsby was first up.

The number of games for NYR Dmen that year was around 55ish more than the year before.

I'll have some time on the weekend and will post more in depth on it then.

Perhaps I missed that, but I'm a little confused here. Gadsby's last post-season all star year was in 1964-65 in Detroit.
 

Kyle McMahon

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May 10, 2006
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I'm coming around to the idea of Parent on my ballot in this round. I had Esposito and Holocek toward the tail end in the last vote. Possible that all three of them will make an appearance this time. I don't think I'll have room for Bower though. The lack of awards recognition might be partially the product of low GP due to Toronto platooning goaltenders in the 60's, but playing well-rested compared to others was also an undeniable advantage. Bower from 1961-64 isn't all that different from Parent at his peak though, so maybe the door is still open a crack.

Internally debating between Martinec and Stastny. I think I'm fairly settled that they are ahead of Holocek among the Czechoslovakians, and whoever I decide on will probably make my top-5.

I still like the idea of Bowie getting the final spot for historical completeness. But I'm not completely convinced he'd be more deserving than Frank McGee, Hod Stuart, or Tom Phillips, unfortunately none of whom came up.

It might bug me more if Sid Abel missed the final list though. Just one of those players that did everything well and had a superb career with multiple championships. If he hadn't missed three prime seasons due to the war, who knows. Toe Blake isn't dissimilar. But Abel being the probable MVP of Detroit's 1943 Cup winner, by no means a roster peppered with great players, is the tipping point for me.
 
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Canadiens1958

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I'm coming around to the idea of Parent on my ballot in this round. I had Esposito and Holocek toward the tail end in the last vote. Possible that all three of them will make an appearance this time. I don't think I'll have room for Bower though. The lack of awards recognition might be partially the product of low GP due to Toronto platooning goaltenders in the 60's, but playing well-rested compared to others was also an undeniable advantage. Bower from 1961-64 isn't all that different from Parent at his peak though, so maybe the door is still open a crack.

Internally debating between Martinec and Stastny. I think I'm fairly settled that they are ahead of Holocek among the Czechoslovakians, and whoever I decide on will probably make my top-5.

I still like the idea of Bowie getting the final spot for historical completeness. But I'm not completely convinced he'd be more deserving than Frank McGee, Hod Stuart, or Tom Phillips, unfortunately none of whom came up.

It might bug me more if Sid Abel missed the final list though. Just one of those players that did everything well and had a superb career with multiple championships. If he hadn't missed three prime seasons due to the war, who knows. Toe Blake isn't dissimilar. But Abel being the probable MVP of Detroit's 1943 Cup winner, by no means a roster peppered with great players, is the tipping point for me.

Peter Stastny was a much better forechecker than Martinec. 1976 Canada Cup,watch his positioning and angles especially against Bobby Orr compared to Martinec.

Johnny Bower. The project is saturated with domestic league awards. SPOTY, Golden Stick, from leagues that were far from O6 AHL quality. Bower won 3 consecutive MVPs - Cunningham, 3 - Holmes, goaltender and was on at least 5 Calder winners.

Abel, Blake and Bowie are definites.
 

wetcoast

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Nov 20, 2018
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Perhaps I missed that, but I'm a little confused here. Gadsby's last post-season all star year was in 1964-65 in Detroit.

I stand corrected was on my phone and was just going off memory.

Never mind my bad as I realized that I confused Gadsby and Neil Coulville.

Good grief I need to stop posting from my phone before fact checking....takes a big drink.
 

Canadiens1958

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Nov 30, 2007
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Lake Memphremagog, QC.
For some reason, the top Canadians and Russians seemed to have problems with Martinec's forechecking and backchecking, even though he wasn't good at it, he he.

From an old post of mine where I gave examples of his ability to steal pucks (some of the links won't probably work though):
HOH Top-50 Non-NHL Europeans Project - Preliminary & General Discussion Thread

1970 into 1977, Canada did not play in the Olympics or the WHCs.Martinec played from the late 1960s onwards.

1976 Canada Cup, first 10 minutes makes a number of critical defensive mistakes including the forecheck.



3:30 turns his back on the forecheck, result first goal for Canada.

Bohuslav Stastny PK gets pinned in the left offensive corner.

Down 2-0 loses Bobby Hull in the slot as Dzurilla makes an excellent save on Hull.

Watch Peter Stastny forecheck Bobby Orr to see how it should be done.
 

DN28

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Jan 2, 2014
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Vladimír Martinec

a) Defense.
Not too long ago there wasn´t any knowledge about Martinec´ sound defensive play but some of us have been able to read the contemporary materials and find considerable evidence. Chronologically:

Gól magazine, post-WHC 1970, Martinec´s player description and evaluation:
"As a rookie of the team, he signaled that it´s possible to count on him in the National team. He´s calm enough when finishing offensive actions, also owns good defensive skills. He was injured so his performance had considerable fluctuations."

Nomination for WHC 1971 presented at Gól magazine, Martinec´s player description:
"Technical, creative player with great improvisational abilities and good defensive propensities."

Slovakian Hockey Yearbook 1972:
Finally, the book is closed with short interesting descriptions of members of the winning Czechoslovakian team. Here they are.

(...)

Vladimír Martinec. He is one of our most wittiest hockey players. By two assists on goals he contributed a great deal to the victory over USSR. He attacks and defends very well, has an intuition for the game, he is a constructive player. If he gains better conditioning and experience yet, he can become the backbone of CSSR team.

Early 1973, a prominent hockey columnist of the era and former National Team player, Miloslav Charouzd calls Martinec esentially one of the three best defensive forwards in the CSSR League. This is the biggest appreaciation of Martinec´s defensive efforts that can be possibly found. It´s also impressive because the article was written during the time when Martinec was on his way to win the League scoring and League title for this season. The key paragraph is bolded by me. I also decided to post or quote the entire article given its importance.
I´ll start with Miloslav Charouzd´s overview of basic types of forwards that you could mostly find in the League at the time, some descriptions may be interesting or useful to know. The first article bears the title: DOES THE IDEAL TYPE OF FORWARD EXIST?
View attachment 130809

“Just as every sporting collective game, hockey is also based not only on mutual cooperation of individuals but also on balance of different lines – of forwards and defensemen. That is why today, strictly one-way type of forward or defenseman is almost an extinct species. More and more a player is sought – the one who meets these tasks [offense and defense] according to team´s conception of the game. There are multiple ways to look at a hockey player. Technical and physical fundamentals are of course taken into account, but moreover a player´s age, nature, personal and moral qualities and all this is necessary to combine in order for a player to be advantageous to his team at all of its aspects. At least in the hint, let´s have a look at some of the most important evaluating factors of a forward, as one member of a hockey team.

The same uniform does not mean the uniformity of forwards. Should the forward line fulfill all of its duties, it has to have a constructive player setting up the pace, he could be named as a sort of on-ice thinker. Next forward must be the type of a shooter and both should be complemented by forward who has constantly on his mind an opportunity of effective defense. Representative of a constructive player who gives a pattern to the offensive game, who develops playing situations, who can release himself and his teammates – is without a doubt, Jaroslav Holík. He has excellent stickhandling technique, he does not avoid physical encounters, while he still maintains the view over the situation in the game and at the same time he´s being an important contributor and director of an active defense of the team. For this type of forward, it is typical having a much larger number of passes on goal than the actual realizations of goals by himself, which is also apparent on
[players such as] Farda or Jiří Novák from Pardubice and Otte from Plzeň.

Forward–shooter should have primarily an innate sense for goal-scoring opportunities, sufficient self-confidence associated with a certain amount of aggressiveness and above all, he should never avoid responsibility of finishing offensive actions. From all of our top teams, Tesla Pardubice is the best of them at these accounts. Four shooters – Šťastný, Martinec, Paleček and Prýl – make each of Pardubice´s offensive lines extremely dangerous. Klapáč and Nový fulfills this function of distinctive finishing players in Dukla Jihlava, Slovan Bratislava relies on Haas in this regard, and Pouzar plays a similar role in Motor Č. Budějovice, and Eduard Novák with Nedvěd in Kladno.

‚Defender‘ is usually a good skater, as he covers comparatively large space in offensive and defensive zones. The player is usually well-built physically, has an advantage in continuous control of the puck, at the same time he acts as an ‚forward-playing antenna‘ of active defense of the team. Outstanding representatives of this type of forward – Jiří Holík and Martinec – have almost even ratio of goals scored and assists and their collective and responsible style of play for the team needs to be highly appreaciated. Ševčík can calmly be measured with these players when it comes to work in defense. However today, we have started to require big effort, immediate counter-attacking skills even from a player securing defense in order for him to get into the scoring areas by himself or to selflessly create the shooting positions for his teammates.

Peaceful ones are the base – hotheaded ones are the spark. Do all the skillful types of forwards fit together temperamentally too? Could there play next to each other temperamentally the same players, such as for example Jaroslav Holík and Golonka? Every coach would probably suffer from a headache soon from this duo! But even these hotheads are needed for the team to a certain extent. No need to remind very much, just how much excitement prevailed or still prevails on the ice, when Golonka, Huck, Sterner or Esposito stepped in. What a constant source of tension are these heated characters. They all usually have a notable amount of playing ‚insolence‘, they do not suffer in no matter how important games they´re playing from a feeling of overly excessive commitments and they play without any hindrance, regardless of an opponent´s level of play.

Although necessarily, a calm stable player who doesn´t get irritated, must be next to them
[i. e. next to ‚hotheads‘]. You can read these traits of the game of Klapáč, Brunclík or Paleček, players who easily adjust, submit and do not look for a conflict, rather look to avoid heated situations on ice.

Old and young. The eternal problem of the circle of life projects itself into the hockey team too. The inevitable exchange of players should be proceeding naturally, continuously, without deep swingings in performance of the team. Young players mean undeniably a certain part of unrest and excitement in the team. They are ambitious, they want to excel. Perhaps that´s why they´re more subjected to influence of the environment and their performances are imbalanced. I have seen indisputably gifted forwards Nový, Pouzar, Čížek,
[Marián] Šťastný from Slovan playing outstanding games, only so that then immediately after they fail to play up to even the league average level. I believe that a good team should have in its core both hockey ‚rookies‘, as well as players around 30, whereas the ‚golden‘ hockey age is within the range of 24 – 26 years. The best in this regard are undoubtedly Tesla Pardubice and Dukla Jihlava where older players such as Prýl, Andrt, Klapáč and even Holíks with their routine and experience lead younger teammates – Veith, Čížek, Nový, Beránek, while the core of the team is made by the players from the ‚golden‘ middle age.

The team, in which the one generation of players has sustained itself for a long time – like the case of ZKL Brno – plays stereotypically over time, no new stimulus comes into their game and performance of the team has to stagnate. I don´t want to claim by this that a young player has to play at whatever cost. Firsov and Gordie Howe were great even after their 30, and for instance Maltsev, Tumba Johansson or Bobby Orr on the other hand were great already at 18 years. Decisive factor always has to be performance not an age of a player!

As we can see, the ideal type of forward or forward line, considering all the viewpoints, cannot even exist! To grab a certain type of player useful for the team is the big craft of a coach. Although often times even here, it is a necessary to deal with some compromise. Character of player cannot be restricted or suppressed, but to streamline and make of perfect use of his features to the one goal – success of the collective.“

WHC 1975 in West Germany:
(...)
'He was a bad shooter <at first>, but when he got stronger for some reason, he became a national team player. He has a good hockey sense, and he always plays for the benefit of the team. The most important thing is that Martinec's work capacity is unbelievable - even a simpleton can see that he is always able to carry the puck over the blue line, but his defensive contribution is never understood,' said a journalist from Pardubice in Düsseldorf**.
Martinec is all <of these things>: when they started to give the Golden Stick (for the player of the year) in Czechoslovakia, the rules were made to favour defencemen... for four years, goal-scoring defencemen were preeminent - then came Martinec. (...)
_______________________________________

b) Penalty killing.
Batis has already posted on this matter in this thread. I´ll just add one new quote here specifically mentioning quality PKing of Martinec. A short excerpt from Československý sport game report on 27 April 1973, League play-off semifinals, 5th game of the Tesla Pardubice vs. Slovan Bratislava series:

"The powerplay was not played well by Pardubicians but when they were shorthanded, it was a pleasure to watch Martinec-Šťastný duo how they managed to boil and disrupt a powerplay of the opponent."
_______________________________________

c) Information about physical play.

Gól magazine, January 1970. I assume following quote comes directly from CSSR head coach Jaroslav Pitner but I can´t guarantee it 100%, so if it was not Pitner, it was a regular Gól writer. This comes from Martinec´s first international season when he was 19/20:

"New season began with some new rules. The most important one was the possibility to bodycheck through the whole rink. Thus the game has simplified and considerably gained on toughness at the same time. The new way of game has brought certain difficulties to the players of technical type, who have been avoiding physical play until now. That´s why it was necessary to realize this change and to establish the principle right from the beginning: to choose only fearless players for the National Team, who do not shy away from physical encounters. The more so it was needed, since the WHC was supposed to be played in Canada on smaller rinks, where physical battles happen more easily. An initial league games look-around showed us such warriors, especially from the ranks of young ones. And so the first National Team opportunity was given to Pardubician line Martinec, Novák, Šťastný, Bratislavian players Haas and Ujváry, Litvínov´s Hlinka."

*probably from WHC 1971:
(...) The size does not ever tell the whole truth: in Bern*, Vladimir Martinec lifted the big Ragulin up in the air without any trouble and slammed him onto the ice!
Martinec was the prototype <player> of a new kind of 'straightforward' hockey; a skilled and a persistent little man, whose <skating> lanes and trails always led to one direction - towards the goal.

Československý sport, 13 April 1972, writer and former National Team goalie Josef Mikoláš after the first CSSR-USSR game (3:3) of the 1972 WHC:
"There have been already many hockey players dressing National Team uniform that came from the Eastern Bohemian city of gingerbread and Tesla factory products. Names of goaltenders Nadrchal, Dvořáček, Lacký, skaters Dolana, Prýl, Franc were and remain well-known capacities in the Czechoslovak hockey. Now two forwards from the new Pardubician generation have earned a National Team jersey: Vladimír Martinec and Bohuslav Šťastný, playing together in the club and in the National Team as well. They are very much alike by their stature and even by their style of play and people often confuse them. They´ve been playing together for five league seasons.
(...)
Somebody said about Vladimír Martinec that he works like a bee on the ice. I think it can be calmly spoken about Šťastný-Martinec pair as a duo of Pardubician bees. They´re both fast, technically matured, and despite the fact that they don´t quite possess a hockey statures, feelings of fear or worries from an opponent are completely foreign to them."

Horymír Sekera, coach of Tesla Pardubice, December 1972, after his team was leading the League mid-season, said for Československý sport about Martinec:
"He is currently our player number one. He came to us literally from the pond from where he brought, besides talent, healthy ambitions and tenacity to catch up everything. He managed to learn everything. Not only he perfectly handles the stick and he´s fast, but he can fight in front of his own and opponent´s net - he just does it all."

Now one of the bigger ones, in my opinion. A Russian writer favourably compared Martinec to Mikhailov during the WHC 1974 with regards to willingness of getting one´s own nose dirty around the net, key part bolded by me:
Československý sport, April 1974, before the 2nd match-up of CSSR vs. USSR, interview with Vyacheslav Gavrilin, writer for “Krasivaya Zvezda” (Moscow).
Question: „To which Czechoslovak player would you grant the maximal attention?“
Vyacheslav Gavrilin: „The most dangerous player of the Czechoslovak team is Vladimír Martinec. Two days ago, I spoke with Firsov and Loktev over the phone, they watch the games on television, if broadcasted. They believe that Martinec is the best non-soviet player and if he´s going to play in such form till the rest of the Championship he should appear in the All-Star team. Martinec´s advantage lies in speed, agility and technique. Loktev added that in the 1966 forward line Loktev-Almetov-Alexandrov, Martinec would excel. It is well known that this trio earned respect in the whole hockey world and that´s why Loktev´s words are such high appraisal of Martinec´s game. This player is simultaneously also one of the few in CSSR team who is not afraid to fight in the space around the net. He reminds of our Michailov in this. Although he [Martinec] is not a center, he´s more courageous in physical battles than most centers.
_____________________________________

d) A pushback and weaknesses.
That´s quite a lot positive vibe about Martinec all-round style of play, but even I don´t myself believe that Martinec was in fact one of the best two-way players of all-time or any sort of historically meaningful physical player. There was a lot of intagibles not appearing on the scoresheet that Martinec provided, but it is important to admit that there is virtually nothing about his two-way play and/or physical play mentioned in various books or internet articles written ex-post after his retirement. I don´t remember reading anything of this sort in some of Karel Gut´s books and Gut (=CSSR head coach between 1974-1980) certainly had a lot of positive things to say about Martinec. I will post some of this later stuff about Martinec in following section of this post to demonstrate a different aspect but you can see precisely what I´m saying here. All in all, Martinec all-round play probably wasn´t transcendent enough to remain in the history books written after the fact, but it is crystal clear that there was more to his game than just scoring points and that he also "punched above his weight" when it comes to physical side of hockey, board battles, net presence etc.

One more example, the Slovakian Hockey Yearbook 1979, when Martinec just won his fourth Golden Stick, obviously praised him a lot but still had nothing to say about his two-way play and suggested Martinec is a brilliant technical high hockey IQ player who would be more suited to less physical era of hockey than the one he had played in. Key paragraph of Martinec´s profile written in the yearbook is following:
„Martinec is a type of player from ‚ballet‘ era of hockey when the prohibition to touch an opponent throughout the rink was yet in place. Elegant skater knows though, that he can´t complain about ill fortune, although he was not gifted with big physical strength. He is gifted with dexterity, acumen, intelligence so he knows how to assert himself even in contemporary physical hockey. [Martinec:] ‚I adjusted, though I know that future does not promise anything pleasant to the type that´s me. Nevertheless I still try [to play] the game above all else and even to smile in the heat of the game from time to time. While a spectator maybe thinks that I don´t care about anything, that´s not true. I need to get loose so I can play more relaxed.‘“

An interview with Martinec in Československý sport, April 1975, published at the time of ongoing World Championship in Munich and Düsseldorf, reveals one of his Martinec´s admitted weaknesses, physical conditioning. He also complaints about his shooting, height and weight.. I don´t personally think his general goal-scoring abilities were NOT in any way excellent during his prime in the 1970s.

Writer: „What shortcomings do you think you still have?“
Vladimír Martinec: „Many. Primarily physical conditioning. Even though I train a lot, it is still not what is needed to be. However, my biggest insufficiency is shooting, I realize that practically in every game. And that is the reason why I am not satisfied with what I´ve been playing so far. Because a good hockey player has to be above all a good shooter.“
Writer: „You are talking about physical conditioning. Do you think you still have this shortcoming because you would anyhow train less than what is needed, or is it connected to your medium height? If you measured 1.90 m and weighed 90 kg, you´d surely have different options?
Vladimír Martinec: „I don´t need to consider that height and weight, I simply grew up the way I did and nothing can be done about it now. Those tall players conversely don´t have the required finesse so it all balances out somehow in the end. When it comes to training though, I could definitely train even more. But a season lasts for 10 months, when I count to the league games some of those tournament games and then games with the National team, in sum it´s close to 100 games, sometimes even more. That´s why it´s necessary to take a rest too, otherwise a man would likely not sustain this heavy workload…“

More suggestions about the issue of physical conditioning (or lack thereof):
I have never thought of that before, or perceived Martinec as being particularly strong, but maybe he was stronger than one would think. Martinec himself (in his autobiography) said that he hated the physical training, but he also pointed out that the national team coaches Gut and Starsi really drilled their players hard in the physical department. I agree with you by the way that Martinec is a top 20 guy.

Slovakian Hockey Yearbook 1972:

(...)

Vladimír Martinec. He is one of our most wittiest hockey players. By two assists on goals he contributed a great deal to the victory over USSR. He attacks and defends very well, has an intuition for the game, he is a constructive player. If he gains better conditioning and experience yet, he can become the backbone of CSSR team.

For what is worth, Martinec was also one of the noted smokers on the 1970s CSSR teams...

___________________________________

e) Post-career recognition, star power, Soviets...
It was brought up by me in this thread earlier that Martinec tends to be regarded as the best player of this 'Golden era' of Czechoslovak hockey (generally 1968-1978 timeframe). I would like to underline why that was the case. I mean, Martinec recorded more points in international games than any other post-war Czech or Slovak player, he also had stellar All-Star voting record, better Golden Stick voting record than anyone besides Hasek and Jagr.. Yes, that´s all there, but there is more to his appreciation than that. Three quotes pointing this out (key parts bolded by me):

First, Karel Gut (CSSR coach, 1974-80), Malá encyklopedie ledního hokeje, published in 1985. Vladimír Martinec´s description, p. 242:
"He [Martinec] played in the unforgettable line of Martinec - J. Novák - B. Šťastný in Tesla Pardubice (one of the greatest forward lines of its time in the world). (...) One of the greatest characters of Czechoslovak hockey. He not only represented but also generalized the Czechoslovak hockey school with his conception of hockey, mostly through creative, variable and surprisingly modifying game. He excelled with wit, with extraordinary sense for a pass, but also with just as good shooting. Outstanding stick-handling technique and imaginative thinking was enhanced by large improvisational abilities."

Second, 1998 Best Czech Hockey Player of the Century, Martinec´s short profile written by Mladá fronta (source):
"Vladimír Martinec lost a big fight for third place with 'Vovka' Zábrodský ultimately only by five points. He´s the first player from the legendary era of the 1970s in the poll. 'A prototype, molded from the best traditions of Czech hockey,' Mladá fronta wrote about him many years ago.
He was no big-shoulder fighter. He gathered points thanks to his attractive game, witty and creative style, excellent skating. A highlight from 1977 Championship in Vienna belongs to one his unforgettable actions, where in the tight game with the Swedes, he assisted to goal by a high forward pass above the heads of defensemen from own blueline up into offensive zone.
He was gifted by an art of improvisation from the sky. Goalies never knew what he´s going to do - a deke, a wrist shot? Jiří Holeček tells: 'I once asked him how does he do all that. He shrugged the shoulders and said he doesn´t know. He was just doing that subconsciously, not even knowing how.'
A smile always belonged to Martinec: it wasn´t any kind of expression of gleefulness or railing, but of a good mood, comfort and pleasure from the game."


Third, an article from 2009, Source:
"Right wing Vladimír Martinec spent almost his whole career - save for half a year in Dukla Jihlava in 1978/79 and four years in German Kaufbeuren at the beginning of the 80s - in Pardubice. He was beloved by local fans due to his well-honed talent in finishing, quick wits and improvisation; and together with Jiří Novák and Bohuslav Šťastný he was a part of then very popular line, which helped Pardubice to win the league title in 1973. He stayed loyal to the East-Bohemian town, now he coaches juniors there. He's still active in hockey.

Martinec belonged among the leaders of the famous Czechoslovak generation which was the only team that could match the Red Machine in the 70s, and even managed to dethrone them thrice (1972, 1976 & 1977). The right winger was always part of it and in Katowice in 1976 he was also named the best forward of the tournament.

What made the icon of Tesla Pardubice an elite world-class player were especially his skilled hands, creativity, wits and the gift of improvisation. Thanks to those attributes and his hockey sense he used to be named as the classical exemplar of Czechoslovak hockey school by the experts in his time. And the fans worshiped him."


Fourth, Joe Pelletier, Source:
"Vladimir Martinec was one of the smartest and most technically skilled European player ever. It is doubtful if there has ever been any player in Europe as eager to improvise as Martinec. He was extremely creative with the puck and drove his opponents crazy.

Few players were treated more brutally than Martinec. This small (5'9" and 178 Ibs) right wing somehow always seemed to bounce back totally undisturbed and more often than not with a smile on his face. His constant smile was a sort of a trademark and frustrated his opponents even more. A lot of reporters used to ask him why he always was smiling, even after a vicious crosscheck in the back. He said that he did it because he enjoyed the game so much and always had fun.

It was evident that he loved the game as he always did something extra with the puck that left the fans absolutely stunned. Martinec was known as 'The Fox' for his cleverness around the net as he simply outsmarted his opponents."


Bolded sentence refers to Martinec specifically being targeted by the Soviets outside the limits rules of the game. For example:
From an interview with Gennady Tsygankov in the St. Petersburg Times back in 2000:

Andrey Musatov: "Could you tell me anything about the famous eight-game 1972 Summit Series that the USSR lost to Canada?"

Tsygankov: "It was a historical set of games. To this day they are being talked about, not just in Russia, but in Canada too. They were the best spectator games in history. Canadians thought of themselves as the originators of hockey, and of us as amateurs. Soviet hockey was generally regarded as amateur. There was much talk on how we would play, and whether we would play at all. The games gave a boost to Soviet hockey and Canadian hockey alike. Canadians were shocked by the accuracy of our passes, and how we could get around three players, like [forward Valery] Kharlamov could, and by our team game and speed."

Mustasov: "Is there anyone in particular from an opposing team that stands out as someone that you needed to look out for?"

Tsygankov: "There were different situations in every game. For example, in 1974, we played against Czechoslovakia, with [right-wing Vladimir] Martinec, who made things very difficult for us. The trainer said that we would have to "neutralize" him during the game - so I volunteered. In the middle of the first period, I made use of a forceful maneuver. Unfortunately, he had a bad fall and started bleeding. The umpire Josef Kampola [sic!] sent me off for five minutes. After Martinec had fallen, the Czech team lost their morale and we won the game."

The game Tsygankov is referring to was the second USSR vs ČSSR game at the 1974 WHC which the Soviets won 3-1. (The Czechoslovaks had won the first game 7-2.)

And more to it, from Finnish sources:
"Martinec's significance in a game is demonstrated <by the fact> that every time the Soviets have had difficulties with Czechoslovakia, Vladimir has been the man who has been taken out first: in Moscow 1973, Vasiliev hit him in the neck with his stick and Martinec was carried off the ice on a stretcher; in Helsinki 1974, Gennady Tsygankov cross-checked Martinec in the face; in the 1975 Izvestia tournament, Petrov butt-ended Martinec in the mouth.
After that Jan Starsi had had enough <and> he snapped: 'The Soviets always talk about how cleanly they play compared to the professionals. But I would just like to know why Martinec always ends up in a hospital, when CSSR is leading a game <versus the Soviets>.'"
_________________________________

f) Videoshowcase.
A well done videopresentation of Martinec´ style of play if you are looking for a visual evidence:
about Martinec

I have no specific interest to 'sell' Martinec here (he's a consensus choice for top 20, right??), but since he is my favourite player, I have naturally followed him somewhat more closely than many other players. One exceptional skill I have noticed was his ability to steal pucks. Some proof:

1972 World Championships, vs. USSR, Martinec steals the puck in his own zone and sets up Nedomansky for Czecholovakia’s first goal

1976 Olympics, vs. USSR, Martinec steals the puck from Viktor Shalimov and makes a play

1976 Canada Cup, vs. USSR, Martinec steals the puck from Skvortsov and passes it to Novak (don’t listen to the commentary, it’s totally out of sync = irritating!)

1976 Canada Cup, vs. Canada (RR)

- during Canada’s PP, Martinec strips Bill Barber of the puck and clears
- Lapointe mishandles the puck, and Martinec smells blood quickly & gets a great scoring chance

1976 Canada Cup, vs. Canada (final, G1), Martinec just takes the puck from Savard

1976 Canada Cup, vs. Canada (final, G2), Martinec steals the puck from Lapointe

1978 World Championships, vs. USSR (final round), Martinec steals the puck during Soviet PP, and has a breakaway (controversy follows)

One thing that I hadn’t paid much attention previously is Martinec’s strength. Only when I saw it mentioned in a Finnish sports book (a mention of Martinec 'manhandling' Ragulin!), I realized that yes, he was a strong player at least for his size, which maybe separated him from e.g. another small 'master technician', Vladimir Vikulov of USSR. Some demonstrations of that:

1976 Canada Cup, vs. USSR
- Martinec bumps Bilyaletdinov off the puck, sets up Bohuslav Stastny for Czechoslovakia’s 4th goal (again, don’t pay attention to the commentary)
- Martinec shows good strength (with the puck) on the boards during Czechoslovakia’s PP (see above about the commentary)

1976 Canada Cup, vs. Canada (RR), Martinec checks Reggie Leach for a good defensive effort

1976 Canada Cup, vs. Canada (final, G2) Martinec strips Bobby Orr of the puck, shows good strength on the boards
 
Last edited:

VMBM

And it didn't even bring me down
Sep 24, 2008
3,812
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Helsinki, Finland
Well, Martinec had 3 points in 3 games vs Canada at the 1976 Canada Cup, he saved a sure goal in game 2 of the final (the link in Batis' post #94), his plus/minus was +1 in the tournament (compared to Peter Stastny's -1), and clearly gave problems to the Canadians with his checking/'soft hands' (as can be seen in the link in post #137). And I'm sure you can find blunders in Peter Stastny's game if you really look for them.

Anyway, even if Stastny was the better forechecker, so what? Should that somehow be the quality that tips the scale in his favour?
 

DN28

Registered User
Jan 2, 2014
629
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Prague
Now are there any "intangibles" for Alexander Maltsev too?

Not that I´m aware of with the exception of two things:

a) Positional versatility.
I assume Maltsev mostly played C in the League in Dynamo, but he was more frequetly used as RW in the Soviet National Team.

b) Lack of stable National Team linemates.
Maltsev´s great disadvantage was that he was tossed around through the USSR´ lineups as the coaches saw fit, so he couldn´t develop chemistry with his partners as Kharlamov, Mikhailov or Makarov could and did for example... All of these were CSKA forwards, so they´ve played with - in part - the same players domestically and internationally. While Maltsev simply didn´t have the same kind of luxury, as Dinamo Moscow of the 1970s managed to produce some elite or semi-elite d-men (Vasiliev, Pervukhin, Bilyaletdinov) but no other high-end quality forward outside of Maltsev himself.
 
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wetcoast

Registered User
Nov 20, 2018
22,504
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Well, Martinec had 3 points in 3 games vs Canada at the 1976 Canada Cup, he saved a sure goal in game 2 of the final (the link in Batis' post #94), his plus/minus was +1 in the tournament (compared to Peter Stastny's -1), and clearly gave problems to the Canadians with his checking/'soft hands' (as can be seen in the link in post #137). And I'm sure you can find blunders in Peter Stastny's game if you really look for them.

Anyway, even if Stastny was the better forechecker, so what? Should that somehow be the quality that tips the scale in his favour?

Forchecking wouldn't be the reason to put Stastny ahead of Martinec, his leading the NHL in points over a ten year period would be the main one.
 
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VMBM

And it didn't even bring me down
Sep 24, 2008
3,812
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Helsinki, Finland
b) Lack of stable National Team linemates.
Maltsev´s great disadvantage was that he was tossed around through the USSR´ lineups as the coaches saw fit, so he couldn´t develop chemistry with his partners as Kharlamov, Mikhailov or Makarov could and did for example... All of these were CSKA forwards, so they´ve played with - in part - the same players domestically and internationally. While Maltsev simply didn´t have the same kind of luxury, as Dinamo Moscow of the 1970s managed to produce some elite or semi-elite d-men (Vasiliev, Pervukhin, Bilyaletdinov) but no other high-end quality forward outside of Maltsev himself.

Yes, it's also notable that in the early 1970s, when Maltsev was playing either with Starshinov, or with Firsov and Vikulov, and Kharlamov, he was a WHC All-Star in 1970, 1971 and 1972, and even the Directorate Best Forward in 1970 and 1972, but after he was dropped from the top line in the fall of '72, no WHC awards/All-Star teams in 1973-77. Then at the 1978 WHC, playing with his Dinamo teammates A. and V. Golikov, he is an all-star again. Obviously players like Starshinov, Firsov, Vikulov or Kharlamov were not his linemates domestically, but they were great players and Maltsev had some chemistry with them and he could shine in that environment.
 
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Kyle McMahon

Registered User
May 10, 2006
13,301
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Peter Stastny was a much better forechecker than Martinec. 1976 Canada Cup,watch his positioning and angles especially against Bobby Orr compared to Martinec.

Johnny Bower. The project is saturated with domestic league awards. SPOTY, Golden Stick, from leagues that were far from O6 AHL quality. Bower won 3 consecutive MVPs - Cunningham, 3 - Holmes, goaltender and was on at least 5 Calder winners.

Abel, Blake and Bowie are definites.

I was impressed with Stastny's play in what I had time to watch from Canada Cup 76, especially considering how young he is.

Good point on Bower's AHL career. Those years would be considered good "filler" years for modern goaltenders in larger leagues.
 
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Hockey Outsider

Registered User
Jan 16, 2005
9,144
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I agree with @ChiTownPhilly that Bernie Parent is more than a two-year wonder.

We all know that he had arguably the greatest two-year peak of any goalie in NHL history. Let's see how he stacks up using the Goals Versus Threshold statistic (basically this looks at how many goals a netminder prevented, relative to a theoretical marginal NHL goalie - this metric gives a goalie credit for playing a lot, even if he's at or below the league average, since it's better than needing to start a borderline minor-league replacement):

Best two years, based on GVT, 1956-2018

Goalie YR1 YR2 Total
Dominik Hasek* 114.6 113.3 228.0
Tony Esposito* 114.2 100.4 214.6
Bernie Parent* 123.3 85.2 208.5
Ken Dryden* 103.6 99.5 203.1
Roberto Luongo 112.9 90.1 203.0
Curtis Joseph 103.6 90.3 193.9
Jacques Plante* 95.9 95.6 191.5
Mike Palmateer 95.9 92.3 188.2
Glenn Hall* 101.7 82.6 184.3
Patrick Roy* 90.6 87.1 177.7
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Parent, as expected, ranks very high - in the top three. This is based on regular season only - we all know he won two Conn Smythe trophies this seasons. (No, I wasn't expecting to see Mike Palmateer on this list either).

Best results for years 3-7, based on GVT, 1956-2018

Goalie YR3 YR4 YR5 YR6 YR7 Total
Dominik Hasek* 105.7 105.0 89.4 87.6 75.7 463.6
Tony Esposito* 95.8 93.1 83.7 83.7 79.2 435.5
Glenn Hall* 81.5 79.6 76.1 71.9 71.6 380.7
Patrick Roy* 85.0 77.9 71.6 68.2 66.1 368.9
Ken Dryden* 87.5 78.5 77.8 62.2 61.7 367.8
Jacques Plante* 81.0 68.5 68.0 64.6 63.4 345.5
Roberto Luongo 85.8 69.4 66.1 64.9 57.2 343.4
Curtis Joseph 89.3 70.9 66.5 53.8 51.8 332.3
Martin Brodeur* 72.0 70.1 69.4 58.5 56.4 326.4
Henrik Lundqvist 67.9 67.9 65.1 63.4 61.3 325.7
Tomas Vokoun 74.1 74.0 59.5 55.2 49.8 312.5
Bernie Parent* 79.2 67.1 58.9 52.7 51.2 309.1
Gump Worsley* 65.6 63.4 63.2 55.9 55.7 303.8
Johnny Bower* 69.0 65.7 63.5 57.9 45.9 302.1
Ed Belfour* 70.3 63.8 62.2 49.2 48.2 293.7
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
To be clear, this table shows each goalie's results for the 3rd to 7th best seasons of their career - that is, their top two seasons are removed entirely. Parent ranks 12th, which is way higher than I expected. I thought he might have been something like 50th with his two-year peak removed. I agree it doesn't look good that he's behind Tomas Vokoun, but everyone else on the list (except probably Curtis Joseph) is a Hall of Famer.

GVT isn't a perfect stat (nothing in hockey is) - but I think it's a useful data point. I'd argue that, if anything, he's probably underrated by GVT, which is based in part on save percentage. The Flyers were the most penalized team in the league for a significant part of Parent's career. Him facing so many short-handed situations (which have been statistically proven to produce more dangerous shots on average compare to even-strength) means that his save percentage likely understates his performance.

I'm still not sure if I have room for Parent in my top ten. But I think that people who are dismissing him because of the notion that he had nothing of significance past his best two years are simply wrong.
 

sr edler

gold is not reality
Mar 20, 2010
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I still like the idea of Bowie getting the final spot for historical completeness. But I'm not completely convinced he'd be more deserving than Frank McGee, Hod Stuart, or Tom Phillips, unfortunately none of whom came up.

It's hard to tell, who's most deserving. In some sense the center position at that time, the Bowie/McGee/Hod Stuart/Tommy Phillips time, is the winger position of today, as the offensive position deploying a lot more one-dimensional guys. Point was also a pretty one-dimensional position at that time, just in the other direction. Now Hod Stuart was a CP and Phillips a winger (which kinda strengthens my point because Phillips was regarded as a strong defensive player and Hod Stuart was at least not considered a bad one).

When the rover got picked out of the game the center had to pick up most of his center ice duties, and this happened alongside the progression with defensive centers such as Jack Walker, Frank Nighbor, et cetera, which meant the players had to change their ways or change position. Most of these early era centers mentioned had a pretty good guy playing their defensive conscience. Bowie had Blair Russel, McGee had Harry Westwick, Harry Trihey had Jack Brannen. These guys were most always if not the best technical skaters then at least the fastest ones, moving back and forth between defense and offense.

That's why when I see say the Silver Seven, it's not really Pulford, McGee or even Alf Smith (or Charlie Spittal, haha) getting the most multi-faceted reviews, but Harry Westwick. And, relatively unrelated but regarding positional changes, Moose Johnson strike me as more of a back and forth player than Eddie Gerard who seems more let's say "Yzerman-ish" in his transition from offense to defense.

Of the players you mentioned I ranked Phillips and Bowie, but both pretty low (92nd and 102nd), and I guess I stand by that. If I'm not remembering it incorrectly there was a team salting the ice in an attempt to slow Phillips down. We'll never really know 100%-ish though exactly how those players moved the ice in relation to each other, but I think it's definitely fair to say the early center was babysit on the defensive side of the puck, in a way probably more than the modern winger is babysit by the modern center.
 
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Dennis Bonvie

Registered User
Dec 29, 2007
29,393
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Connecticut
I agree with @ChiTownPhilly that Bernie Parent is more than a two-year wonder.

We all know that he had arguably the greatest two-year peak of any goalie in NHL history. Let's see how he stacks up using the Goals Versus Threshold statistic (basically this looks at how many goals a netminder prevented, relative to a theoretical marginal NHL goalie - this metric gives a goalie credit for playing a lot, even if he's at or below the league average, since it's better than needing to start a borderline minor-league replacement):

Best two years, based on GVT, 1956-2018

Goalie YR1 YR2 Total
Dominik Hasek* 114.6 113.3 228.0
Tony Esposito* 114.2 100.4 214.6
Bernie Parent* 123.3 85.2 208.5
Ken Dryden* 103.6 99.5 203.1
Roberto Luongo 112.9 90.1 203.0
Curtis Joseph 103.6 90.3 193.9
Jacques Plante* 95.9 95.6 191.5
Mike Palmateer 95.9 92.3 188.2
Glenn Hall* 101.7 82.6 184.3
Patrick Roy* 90.6 87.1 177.7
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
Parent, as expected, ranks very high - in the top three. This is based on regular season only - we all know he won two Conn Smythe trophies this seasons. (No, I wasn't expecting to see Mike Palmateer on this list either).

Best results for years 3-7, based on GVT, 1956-2018

Goalie YR3 YR4 YR5 YR6 YR7 Total
Dominik Hasek* 105.7 105.0 89.4 87.6 75.7 463.6
Tony Esposito* 95.8 93.1 83.7 83.7 79.2 435.5
Glenn Hall* 81.5 79.6 76.1 71.9 71.6 380.7
Patrick Roy* 85.0 77.9 71.6 68.2 66.1 368.9
Ken Dryden* 87.5 78.5 77.8 62.2 61.7 367.8
Jacques Plante* 81.0 68.5 68.0 64.6 63.4 345.5
Roberto Luongo 85.8 69.4 66.1 64.9 57.2 343.4
Curtis Joseph 89.3 70.9 66.5 53.8 51.8 332.3
Martin Brodeur* 72.0 70.1 69.4 58.5 56.4 326.4
Henrik Lundqvist 67.9 67.9 65.1 63.4 61.3 325.7
Tomas Vokoun 74.1 74.0 59.5 55.2 49.8 312.5
Bernie Parent* 79.2 67.1 58.9 52.7 51.2 309.1
Gump Worsley* 65.6 63.4 63.2 55.9 55.7 303.8
Johnny Bower* 69.0 65.7 63.5 57.9 45.9 302.1
Ed Belfour* 70.3 63.8 62.2 49.2 48.2 293.7
[TBODY] [/TBODY]
To be clear, this table shows each goalie's results for the 3rd to 7th best seasons of their career - that is, their top two seasons are removed entirely. Parent ranks 12th, which is way higher than I expected. I thought he might have been something like 50th with his two-year peak removed. I agree it doesn't look good that he's behind Tomas Vokoun, but everyone else on the list (except probably Curtis Joseph) is a Hall of Famer.

GVT isn't a perfect stat (nothing in hockey is) - but I think it's a useful data point. I'd argue that, if anything, he's probably underrated by GVT, which is based in part on save percentage. The Flyers were the most penalized team in the league for a significant part of Parent's career. Him facing so many short-handed situations (which have been statistically proven to produce more dangerous shots on average compare to even-strength) means that his save percentage likely understates his performance.

I'm still not sure if I have room for Parent in my top ten. But I think that people who are dismissing him because of the notion that he had nothing of significance past his best two years are simply wrong.

This seems to confirm what I recall of Tony Esposito.
 

Kyle McMahon

Registered User
May 10, 2006
13,301
4,353
It's hard to tell, who's most deserving. In some sense the center position at that time, the Bowie/McGee/Hod Stuart/Tommy Phillips time, is the winger position of today, as the offensive position deploying a lot more one-dimensional guys. Point was also a pretty one-dimensional position at that time, just in the other direction. Now Hod Stuart was a CP and Phillips a winger (which kinda strengthens my point because Phillips was regarded as a strong defensive player and Hod Stuart was at least not considered a bad one).

When the rover got picked out of the game the center had to pick up most of his center ice duties, and this happened alongside the progression with defensive centers such as Jack Walker, Frank Nighbor, et cetera, which meant the players had to change their ways or change position. Most of these early era centers mentioned had a pretty good guy playing their defensive conscience. Bowie had Blair Russel, McGee had Harry Westwick, Harry Trihey had Jack Brannen. These guys were most always if not the best technical skaters then at least the fastest ones, moving back and forth between defense and offense.

That's why when I see say the Silver Seven, it's not really Pulford, McGee or even Alf Smith (or Charlie Spittal, haha) getting the most multi-faceted reviews, but Harry Westwick. And, relatively unrelated but regarding positional changes, Moose Johnson strike me as more of a back and forth player than Eddie Gerard who seems more let's say "Yzerman-ish" in his transition from offense to defense.

Of the players you mentioned I ranked Phillips and Bowie, but both pretty low (92nd and 102nd), and I guess I stand by that. If I'm not remembering it incorrectly there was a team salting the ice in an attempt to slow Phillips down. We'll never really know 100%-ish though exactly how those players moved the ice in relation to each other, but I think it's definitely fair to say the early center was babysit on the defensive side of the puck, in a way probably more than the modern winger is babysit by the modern center.

Thank you for this very informative post, an interesting perspective on the value of the center position in 7 man hockey.
 

Theokritos

Global Moderator
Apr 6, 2010
12,541
4,937
I've not seen an AHL game from 1966 or whatever, but I have seen WHA games. I imagine 1966 AHL is a better league than 1976 WHA...that feels right to me, in the dark.

In terms of talent level or tactical quality? Or both?
 

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