I don't disagree that it would be ideal to have two strong tenants, as long as the second tenant did not lose so much money that it wasn't worth the synergy and ancillary revenues. In this case, ASG seems to be making the point that the Thrashers lose so much money that they would be better off without them. If they are truly losing $20 million per annum, then it would be hard to see how they couldn't replace at least some of those 40 dates and lose less money. By analogy, if you could book 40 expensive shows at the arena but couldn't generate enough revenue (ticket sales, etc.) and ended up losing $500k per show, you would probably rather keep the arena dark on those nights than to book those shows.
Thrashers Bombshell: Owners have wanted to sell since 2005
- Thread starter Magnus Fulgur
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I don't disagree that it would be ideal to have two strong tenants, as long as the second tenant did not lose so much money that it wasn't worth the synergy and ancillary revenues. In this case, ASG seems to be making the point that the Thrashers lose so much money that they would be better off without them. If they are truly losing $20 million per annum, then it would be hard to see how they couldn't replace at least some of those 40 dates and lose less money. By analogy, if you could book 40 expensive shows at the arena but couldn't generate enough revenue (ticket sales, etc.) and ended up losing $500k per show, you would probably rather keep the arena dark on those nights than to book those shows.
- Mar 10, 2010
- 34,913
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fugu i rarely debate mods on the board but will give it a go
to your point above i would suggest it is possible one of the tenants (Thrashers) is doing so badly that it might make sense to monetize the assets by sale and look for better ways to spend the cash. if you would like me to dig up the link to the court documents discussing losses i can but the picture wasn't pretty. in this case i look at it as addition by subtraction, NHL willing of coarse ASG get the $135 to $170 million for the Thrashers, stop the annual losses, and free up the possible dates for concerts which would be nice but probably a very small piece of what makes it attractive.
one reason for keeping the teams together was to not break the naming rights contract that was amazing by today's standards ($20 million per year). but i think that was addressed earlier in this thread when one of the ASG principles had reportedly renegotiated the naming rights contemplating the exit of the Thrashers for $10 million dollars annualy. this leads me to believe they are at least serious about the division
think Phoenix and Atlanta are in a different boat.....the Yotes are the only anchor tenant in Glendale.....if the Thrashers left ASG would still have the Hawks as their anchor.
also although there are many arena's that have duel NBA and NHL anchors not many have 1 owner for both sports....not sure if that has been an impediment in Atlanta or not?
lastly bigger is often but not always better.....its great that the Spirit have an NHL, and NBA team and a busy arena but with it comes big overhead and in this case pretty significant losses (i will grab the link when i get time)......contrast that to the MTS centre as another "small ball" example. MTS centre has proved to be a very effective business model (for this you will have to trust me
) that has been run in an efficient and profitable manner. There is usually more than one way up the mountain and i am not saying Atlanta is done.....and I am sure in a perfect world the NHL would love to have a top notch owner drop in to Atlanta and purchase the Thrashers for $100 plus million and keep them in place. We shall see how the next 3 to 4 months play out but the NHL is not telegraphing any move that would lead me to believe they have a happy ending in Atlanta for the Thrashers.....YET.....never say never with Gary the guy is a magician when it comes to pulling rabbits out of the hat
Is it possible that the owners are pushing more losses onto the Thrashers that actually come from the Hawks? Make one business look good, but absorbing losses with the other? The down side is that once someone takes the Thrashers off their hands, there would be no place to hide those losses anymore and they would have to show against the Hawks, but if someone were to take both off their hands, then it only looks like there is 1 problem to fix instead of 2.
Alberta
Registered User
- Jul 20, 2005
- 1,710
- 18
One thing to worry about if you're a Thrashers fan is, if they were serious about selling the Thrashers to an interested party but keeping the Hawks wouldn't they rather push the losses onto the Hawks?
Also, I found it to be bizarre that in the article where he's pleading for someone to buy the Thrashers he also throws in there that the team is losing $20 million. Why would anyone want to invest in that? It reeks more of a "let's get this out there so when we do move people understand" type of article.
This latest news leaking of an interested investor reeks of a "let's give people a little bit of hope so that we don't play to an empty building for the next six weeks."
Firstly, Vinik has been speculated to be a billionaire, but who really knows, huh? Hulsizer's firm has been reported to be worth $1B, which would make him a billionaire, but again...
More to the point, I draw your attention to the post to which I was replying:
"super-wealthy" ... not "billionaire".
Uphill battles are the norm for me here. You have probably noticed.
I guess I should do a roll call of NHL billionaire owners (noting that Forbes is a good list but no one should be fooled into thinking it is comprehensive), including a few who have been above and below the magic number from time to time and a few mega-corp owners to boot:
ANA (Samueli), BOS (Jacobs), (BUF) Pegula, CAL (Edwards and Hotchkiss), CAR (Karmanos), CHI (Jacobs), COL (Kroenke), DET (Ilitch), EDM (Katz), LAK (Anschutz), Minnesota Wild (Leipold and Falcone), NJ (Vanderbeek), NYI (Wang - eh, hes been above and below), NYR (Dolan), OTT (Melnyk - eh, same as Wang), PHIL (Cablevision), PITT (Burkle), TOR (Teachers), WASH (Leonsis). Vinik - maybe. Hulsizer - maybe.Aquilini - maybe.
Make of that what you will.
Not really relevant, as far as I can see. Not even tangentially related.
Reasonable people can disagree.
Hmmm, I guess they prefer that municipalities offer bonds and subsidize the entire thing.
One is not mutually exclusive of the other.
I refer you to my post, where i did not say that he was or was not. I simply stated that, IF one wants to suggest that he is a dynamite businessman, it is a relevant fact. There is a misperception out there (and it has been implied on this Board) that Thomson is a super-sharp businessman, and they point to his wealth as evidence of that. I would hope you would agree that his net worth is not, in his case at least, indicative of anything of the sort. To demonstrate his acumen, one would have to introduce different evidence.
See above. As we have seen with previous PHO ownership and (I would argue, at least) thwarted prospective ownership with the initials JB, even self-initiated wealth is not all that indicative of overall business acumen, but that is another story and another thread.
Well, I know for a fact that Karmanos is only worth $700 million. I'm highly suspicious of many others who I can't find any valuations over $1 billion for. Pretty much every estimate I've seen gives Vinik ~$500 million and many have speculated that Hulsizer's personal wealth is in the $300-500 million range. Where you're getting these billion dollar valuations from is a total mystery.
Forbes, a good enough resource though hardly definitive as you know, claimed in November that the NHL had 8 billionaire owners (not counting corporate ownership or Katz for some reason):
http://www.forbes.com/2010/11/02/penguins-kings-wild-business-sports-nhl-billionaires.html
Forbes, a good enough resource though hardly definitive as you know, claimed in November that the NHL had 8 billionaire owners (not counting corporate ownership or Katz for some reason):
http://www.forbes.com/2010/11/02/penguins-kings-wild-business-sports-nhl-billionaires.html
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cbcwpg
Registered User
I'm sure there are lots of lists out there contradicting each other. This one says there are only 9 Billionaires owning NHL teams. 10 I guess now when you add Pegula.
http://www.ranker.com/list/billionaire-nhl-owners/worlds-richest-people-lists
Since this is a Thrasher thread, I guess the question is ... are there any ( not on the list ) that want to own the Thrashers.
MAROONSRoad
f/k/a Ghost
mod edit: qdp
It's all about pouring cold water on or trying to discredit the notion of additional Canadian NHL teams -- poor corporate support likely in potential Canadian NHL cities, number of hockey fans in Canada exaggerated, potential owner(s) not great businessmen, etc., etc., -- while at the same time trying to bolster the case for the southern franchises -- great corporate support there, losses exaggerated, Canes make as much as Oilers, etc., etc. If you look at it through that lens, it will all make sense.
GHOST
It's all about pouring cold water on or trying to discredit the notion of additional Canadian NHL teams -- poor corporate support likely in potential Canadian NHL cities, number of hockey fans in Canada exaggerated, potential owner(s) not great businessmen, etc., etc., -- while at the same time trying to bolster the case for the southern franchises -- great corporate support there, losses exaggerated, Canes make as much as Oilers, etc., etc. If you look at it through that lens, it will all make sense.
GHOST
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fugu i rarely debate mods on the board but will give it a go
You're allowed to debate mods, and even admins, on the board if we're engaging in the hockey discussions. It's only moderating business that's not debatable on the open boards.
There's an outbreak of "monetize" in the BOHB [not to pick on you, you're just the latest].
I think when I made my comment it was to juxtapose the situations of the Coyotes and Thrashers. Since Phillips Arena has two anchor tenants, one perhaps can consider that one might be sufficient to carry the otherwise nonfillable (?) dates, and have other shows in for the remainder. Jobing.com doesn't have another anchor tenant, so apparently COG isn't willing to leave it to chance to fill up the entire year with tours. It also has competing venues and isn't as centrally located as Phillips. Both teams have lost $20-30m per year for several years running. One would think that the dual anchor setup would simply be preferable to all owners.
Just sounds like the current guys aren't interested.
I missed this bit.
I think we agree on the rest of your post.
Actually, no, still 9 according to that list. Golisano exited and Pegula took his place. Leipold (co-owner with Falcone) is married to the heiress of the Johnson fortune, so she's worth billions.
The Vancouver owner, iirc, is perhaps worth a billion or two. I also thought the Molsons were very wealthy? Of course, MLSE is owned by a some wealthy entities, including Tanenbaum.
ThrasherMinion
Just Chucky
- Oct 2, 2006
- 4,255
- 0
A few understandings of a local Thrasher fan:
1. The ownership is called "Octotards" no longer called ASG down here. However, specifically, they are Octotards minus one since buying out Belkin.
2. The group is divided into 3 small groups in 3 different cities: Boston, Washington, Atlanta. Ted Turner pretty much GAVE the team to the group led by son "Beau Turner" who lives who knows where. We've never seen him since the purchase. Another "buyer" was son-in-law, Rutherford Seydel, who does live in Atlanta and it's believed had to sell all of his rights and holds 3% now. None of them had any real money is what Atlanta fans now think.
3. One guy, Peskowitz, has been purported to actually be alive, even tho the very few times he shows up in Atlanta, he has never spoken a word to anyone or even shaken a hand. Seydel and Levinson from Washington used to come to games, but no one's seen either since the blown playoffs.
4. Gearon had to be told Andrew Ladd's name and that Ladd was the Captain last week when Gearon broke his, "Please buy our team" plea on local radio.
5. Last year, the team first hired a firm to look for potential investors. I'm sure it was more of a group of guys that went out with "potentials" and told jokes about the owners.
6. Everyone in Atlanta thinks that they have cooked books to throw all the losses on the Thrashers. They keep sending Thrasher season ticket holders free Hawks tickets to try to boost the Hawks attendance. Even tho the Hawks are better in the standings, the Thrashers outdrew them by lots until the year after the playoffs when it was obvious that the owners had totally bailed.
7. The Arena has fallen into disrepair, the restrooms are not even totally functional. Chairs and stairs are damaged, the place looks like a dark, dank, cesspool. It's amazing that Phillips is listed as a top money making facility worldwide. How can hockey be the "only loser?" Something is fishy there.
8. There is NO local marketing as they even let the marketing director from the first 2 years of the franchise leave because they wouldn't give him a budget.
9. The owners have never invested in minor league programs which is why our draft picks have been rushed into the NHL too soon. Valabik and Cormier were both healthy scratches consistently in Chicago. We had to reassigned players to the ECHL just so they could get playing time.
10. Living through the whole Heatley/Dan Snyder thing, letting Savard leave for $4 mil. a year without as much as a counter offer, Hossa and Kovalchuk rushing to get out....
Hossa was invited to a Hawks game with Gearon the year he left and actually said that it was "nice to finally meet someone who makes decisions" as in, "where the hell have you idiots been?"
Kovalchuk's first comments in Jersey were to the effect that it was "nice to be in a place that takes hockey seriously,"
Atlanta fans should be praised for the crap we've put up with. We didn't deserve to be treated so poorly.
We have the largest fanclub in the NHL as of this moment.
We don't deserve the "thrashing" (sorry for the irony) that we get from people about attendance.
From what I read, Winnipeg isn't drawing over 50% attendance for the Moose. Atlanta set the record at the time for IHL attendance in 1993-94.
There were over 20,000 for the Knight's Turner Cup games.
The All-Star Game, playoff games were sellouts plus standing room.
With proper ownership, or even marginal ownership, this will work. With garbage, what would you expect. Our idiot ownership is right now suing their VERY OWN LAWYERS
1. The ownership is called "Octotards" no longer called ASG down here. However, specifically, they are Octotards minus one since buying out Belkin.
2. The group is divided into 3 small groups in 3 different cities: Boston, Washington, Atlanta. Ted Turner pretty much GAVE the team to the group led by son "Beau Turner" who lives who knows where. We've never seen him since the purchase. Another "buyer" was son-in-law, Rutherford Seydel, who does live in Atlanta and it's believed had to sell all of his rights and holds 3% now. None of them had any real money is what Atlanta fans now think.
3. One guy, Peskowitz, has been purported to actually be alive, even tho the very few times he shows up in Atlanta, he has never spoken a word to anyone or even shaken a hand. Seydel and Levinson from Washington used to come to games, but no one's seen either since the blown playoffs.
4. Gearon had to be told Andrew Ladd's name and that Ladd was the Captain last week when Gearon broke his, "Please buy our team" plea on local radio.
5. Last year, the team first hired a firm to look for potential investors. I'm sure it was more of a group of guys that went out with "potentials" and told jokes about the owners.
6. Everyone in Atlanta thinks that they have cooked books to throw all the losses on the Thrashers. They keep sending Thrasher season ticket holders free Hawks tickets to try to boost the Hawks attendance. Even tho the Hawks are better in the standings, the Thrashers outdrew them by lots until the year after the playoffs when it was obvious that the owners had totally bailed.
7. The Arena has fallen into disrepair, the restrooms are not even totally functional. Chairs and stairs are damaged, the place looks like a dark, dank, cesspool. It's amazing that Phillips is listed as a top money making facility worldwide. How can hockey be the "only loser?" Something is fishy there.
8. There is NO local marketing as they even let the marketing director from the first 2 years of the franchise leave because they wouldn't give him a budget.
9. The owners have never invested in minor league programs which is why our draft picks have been rushed into the NHL too soon. Valabik and Cormier were both healthy scratches consistently in Chicago. We had to reassigned players to the ECHL just so they could get playing time.
10. Living through the whole Heatley/Dan Snyder thing, letting Savard leave for $4 mil. a year without as much as a counter offer, Hossa and Kovalchuk rushing to get out....
Hossa was invited to a Hawks game with Gearon the year he left and actually said that it was "nice to finally meet someone who makes decisions" as in, "where the hell have you idiots been?"
Kovalchuk's first comments in Jersey were to the effect that it was "nice to be in a place that takes hockey seriously,"
Atlanta fans should be praised for the crap we've put up with. We didn't deserve to be treated so poorly.
We have the largest fanclub in the NHL as of this moment.
We don't deserve the "thrashing" (sorry for the irony) that we get from people about attendance.
From what I read, Winnipeg isn't drawing over 50% attendance for the Moose. Atlanta set the record at the time for IHL attendance in 1993-94.
There were over 20,000 for the Knight's Turner Cup games.
The All-Star Game, playoff games were sellouts plus standing room.
With proper ownership, or even marginal ownership, this will work. With garbage, what would you expect. Our idiot ownership is right now suing their VERY OWN LAWYERS
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I continue to be amazed at the amount of damage an owner can do to a franchise. I relish an NHL team back in Winnipeg but can't help but have sympathy for Thrasher fans. Quite frankly the NHL does a poor job of "screening" it's owners. There's no guarantee that MH will be a "good" owner in Glendale either.
NO - 8,300 avg in a 15,000 seat arena (2nd in the AHL in average attendance).
Plus they close the upper bowl unless the lower bowl is sold out - that limits attendance.
Remember we are talking about a city that lost its NHL team in a very bitter fashion - plenty of regular Jets fans never attend Moose games as a result of that. I'm not sure AHL attendance has anything to do with NHL attendance - at least in Winnipeg. Very different situation in Winnipeg than Atlanta, IMO.
oldunclehue
Registered User
- Jun 16, 2010
- 1,222
- 1,328
I have to agree with you, but the only people to blame are the BoG and Bettman, the southern expansion was done with little research and too fast, it's kind of like your 13 year old cousin that grew 4 inches in a summer, clumsy and doesn't work all that well.
The fact is, the NHL is viewed as a minor league for owners, unless you own a team in most Canadian cities, or the north east in the USA, what southern owner has really been a lock. I don't know of many that has done great for a team....
The NHL will never attract respectful, passionate rich owners in its current state, it doesn't have the potential of an NFL, NBA, MLB or even UFC for that matter.
Its a sad state, but I old love to have a team in Winnipeg again, but I fear it may be good now, but become too rich for Wpg's economy as things pick up in the states.
ThrasherMinion
Just Chucky
- Oct 2, 2006
- 4,255
- 0
The Flames left town due to the failure of the real estate magnate that sold the Flames to pay debts. That was very painful. I feel for Winnipeg fans, but I would much rather see the Islanders move. They still have 2 more teams in the immediate area and Buffalo to the north.
I can't understand Phoenix either because on their telecasts, it looks like a fun time.
atlanta has never made hockey fun for fans or families. Only the die hards show up.
Tampa, Nashville and Carolina have made me jealous as hell. THAT should be Atlanta too. With the weather and football atmosphere, it should be a great family time with tailgates and outdoor activity before games.
an Atlanta under16 jr. team is going to Nationals because they are really good and qualified. We had a 3-on-3 outdoor team win in Quebec 2 or 3 years ago. We've got a good grass roots program thanks to the work of Darren Elliot.
This ownership was approached by several Atlanta Flames alumni (several players still call Atlanta home). Don Waddell was among those that said, thanks but no thanks.
We don't have ANY mention of Atlanta hockey history around the arena, which is why fans still yell KNIGHTS during the Nat'l Anthem just to spite Thrasher ownership.
Thanks guys, for letting me rant here. I feel like I'm at a bar, cryin in my beer! lololol.
I can't understand Phoenix either because on their telecasts, it looks like a fun time.
atlanta has never made hockey fun for fans or families. Only the die hards show up.
Tampa, Nashville and Carolina have made me jealous as hell. THAT should be Atlanta too. With the weather and football atmosphere, it should be a great family time with tailgates and outdoor activity before games.
an Atlanta under16 jr. team is going to Nationals because they are really good and qualified. We had a 3-on-3 outdoor team win in Quebec 2 or 3 years ago. We've got a good grass roots program thanks to the work of Darren Elliot.
This ownership was approached by several Atlanta Flames alumni (several players still call Atlanta home). Don Waddell was among those that said, thanks but no thanks.
We don't have ANY mention of Atlanta hockey history around the arena, which is why fans still yell KNIGHTS during the Nat'l Anthem just to spite Thrasher ownership.
Thanks guys, for letting me rant here. I feel like I'm at a bar, cryin in my beer! lololol.
I do have some concerns about long term success in Winnipeg if the team is noncompetitive for a long stretch. However I am of the group that believes that NHL hockey will not work in every market in the southern US for a multitude of reasons. Plus I think there may be big problems for the US economy for some time as all levels of government struggle with massive debt levels - almost a Greece/Ireland situation, IMO.
Regarding Karmanos, how do you know this for a "fact"? i would be very interested.
As an aside, in my research, I came across that $700M figure as well. Here it is:
http://www.metronc.com/article/?id=756
It was probably valid - in March, 2001.
I have seen several estimates for Vinik via Google, for the $500M
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davemac1313
Registered User
Interesting Thompson related article...it would appear he is already an NHL owner...owning 15% of the Leafs....
http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/index.cfm?PgNm=TCE&Params=M1ARTM0012842
Closer inspection of the Thomsons, the ninth richest family in the world according to Forbes, reveals a more complicated portrait of wealth. Their business holdings are a Chinese puzzle, with companies folded into companies. Most visible is the public THOMSON CORP., a $28.7-billion global digital media empire administered from Stamford, Conn., with electronic databases in law, health care, science, accounting and education. Then there's Woodbridge Co. Ltd., the family's private holding company chaired by Ken THOMSON, with assets that, pending regulatory approval, will include 40 per cent of Bell Globemedia, owner of the Globe and Mail, CTV Inc., 15 specialty channels and 15 per cent of Maple Leaf Sports & Entertainment Ltd. The family upped its BGM ownership stake in December, bringing them into partnership with Torstar Corp., the owner of the Toronto Star, BCE Inc., and the Ontario Teachers' Pension Plan.
In addition David owns Osmington Inc outside of the family trust...so who really knows his net worth
It looks as if Bell is buying out Thomsons share of CTV in 2011 and Thomson takes more control of the Globe and Mail, didn't see that before.
http://www.thecanadianencyclopedia.com/index.cfm?PgNm=TCE&Params=M1ARTM0012842
Closer inspection of the Thomsons, the ninth richest family in the world according to Forbes, reveals a more complicated portrait of wealth. Their business holdings are a Chinese puzzle, with companies folded into companies. Most visible is the public THOMSON CORP., a $28.7-billion global digital media empire administered from Stamford, Conn., with electronic databases in law, health care, science, accounting and education. Then there's Woodbridge Co. Ltd., the family's private holding company chaired by Ken THOMSON, with assets that, pending regulatory approval, will include 40 per cent of Bell Globemedia, owner of the Globe and Mail, CTV Inc., 15 specialty channels and 15 per cent of Maple Leaf Sports & Entertainment Ltd. The family upped its BGM ownership stake in December, bringing them into partnership with Torstar Corp., the owner of the Toronto Star, BCE Inc., and the Ontario Teachers' Pension Plan.
In addition David owns Osmington Inc outside of the family trust...so who really knows his net worth
It looks as if Bell is buying out Thomsons share of CTV in 2011 and Thomson takes more control of the Globe and Mail, didn't see that before.
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Thomson is no longer involved in the Leafs and once loaned the $$$ for the purchase of the Canadiens. His father gave Jack Kent Cooke his start in the media business and his father was previously involved with the LA Kings.
Killion
Registered User
- Feb 19, 2010
- 36,763
- 3,217
Sounds like someone I'd wanna hang with.
Can ya keep up Dado?...
Im afraid thats rather dated mac. They sold off CTV a year ago and 7.7% of their shares in MLSE to the Ontario Teachers Pension Fund; the other 7.7% to Tanenbaum who is trying to put together a consortium with Rogers to buy out the OTPF's majority stake altogether. As your aware, NHL by-laws prohibit multi-team ownership in whole or in part. And Im surprised you dont know this already. Though the Empire has shrunk from the Pacific, BC & Alberta, all of Southern, Southwestern/Northwestern Ontario, Manitoba & Sask is supposed to belong to?.
the Leafs.....
if your still stuck in Conns' World, as I tend to be.....
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I had found a business website that had Hulsizer listed at $350 million. i will see if i can re-locate it. Lets say Peak Six and his business ventures are worth $1 billion. He does have a 50 % partner in Jennifer Just so Hulsizer would be worth $500 million (not all mariages last forever). I find it odd that Hulsizer had once walked from negotiations with the NHL over $5 million. Regardless there are many billionaires in Georgia and North America, the globe, time will tell if any want to be involved with the Thrashers hockey team.
Jesus Christ Horburn
Registered User
- Aug 22, 2008
- 13,942
- 1
My guess is that the new ownership group "kicking tires" is actually TNSE.
When Reinsdorf and Ice Edge walked away from the Coyotes, local journalists reported that the city was still in talks with two potential ownership groups, one of which was eventually revealed to be TNSE.
As far as I can tell, most of the reports out of Atlanta indicate that if a new owner cannot be found, that they will relocate to "Winnipeg", but they never mention TNSE by name. Perhaps they're now finding out about TNSE's interest, but are unaware of who they represent (Winnipeg).
When Reinsdorf and Ice Edge walked away from the Coyotes, local journalists reported that the city was still in talks with two potential ownership groups, one of which was eventually revealed to be TNSE.
As far as I can tell, most of the reports out of Atlanta indicate that if a new owner cannot be found, that they will relocate to "Winnipeg", but they never mention TNSE by name. Perhaps they're now finding out about TNSE's interest, but are unaware of who they represent (Winnipeg).
Don't believe everything you read in the papers regarding negotiations and who allegedly "walked", or what that would mean even if marginally accurate. Billionaires will certainly argue over $5M in a $170M deal.
Are you suggesting that we take a 50% discount for every married NHL owner? That is an unusual position to take.
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