Thoughts on the rebuild? PART 2

[Micklebot]

Literally every Preds fan happy with Turris
Value of: - What to do with Turris?

He has had a good start. Hope he continues.

I'll wait more than half a dozen games to declare he is back and worth his contract though.

 

[Sens]

He has had a good start. Hope he continues.

I'll wait more than half a dozen games to declare he is back and worth his contract though.

He broke his foot twice last year... I’ll take his career work over an injury riddled year

 

[Micklebot]

He broke his foot twice last year... I’ll take his career work over an injury riddled year

He also looked terrible the year before when they acquired him and he said he was healthy.

 

[Tuna99]

My thought on the rebuild: I wish this team took more high risk/high reward players with late 1sts and early 2nds.

I’m sure Shane Pinto will do great at UND this year, but Arthur Kaliyev scored 50 in his draft year, and currently has 13g11a in 11 games. Of course it’s super early too tell yet, but the ceilings of guys like Kaliyev, Brink and Lavoie all seem higher

I like how they are building the D and goaltending first and the forwards 2nd. Seems they have put size and compete over speed and skill - which I agree with. But to build a big sturdy team it’s not sexy. You take the Pintos over the Kalyevs because overall a bigger and better 2 way team beats speed and skill. St Louis still has the skilled guys like Schwartz and the Tarasenko, but they both have high compete levels

 

[TheDebater]

My thought on the rebuild: I wish this team took more high risk/high reward players with late 1sts and early 2nds.

I’m sure Shane Pinto will do great at UND this year, but Arthur Kaliyev scored 50 in his draft year, and currently has 13g11a in 11 games. Of course it’s super early too tell yet, but the ceilings of guys like Kaliyev, Brink and Lavoie all seem higher

I made a similar post in the "Colin White" thread, with regards to Ottawa more often than not, making the "safe" pick. I could not believe last draft that Kaliyev had dropped to the 2nd round and I was absolutely positive Dorion would not pass him up since it was not a huge risk using a 2nd round pick....and they did not take him. I was shocked, we will regret it in a few years guaranteed.

 

[inthewings]

I like how they are building the D and goaltending first and the forwards 2nd. Seems they have put size and compete over speed and skill - which I agree with. But to build a big sturdy team it’s not sexy. You take the Pintos over the Kalyevs because overall a bigger and better 2 way team beats speed and skill. St Louis still has the skilled guys like Schwartz and the Tarasenko, but they both have high compete levels

I vehemently disagree with this assessment.

 

[Sweatred]

I vehemently disagree with this assessment.

I have no idea who will be the better player .. but Pinto is off to a good start in ND with 1pt/game in the first 4 (2G/2A). He is tied for 2nd on the team behind JBD and is +4. ND lists him as 6.02 / 102 lbs.

Edit for 195 lb

 

[Micklebot]

I have no idea who will be the better player .. but Pinto is off to a good start in ND with 1pt/game in the first 4 (2G/2A). He is tied for 2nd on the team behind JBD and is +4. ND lists him as 6.02 / 102 lbs.

He's going to have to eat a lot of pizza and donuts if he ever want's to crack an NHL roster with that frame...

 

[Cosmix]

I have no idea who will be the better player .. but Pinto is off to a good start in ND with 1pt/game in the first 4 (2G/2A). He is tied for 2nd on the team behind JBD and is +4. ND lists him as 6.02 / 102 lbs.

The must be a typo in the weight. Could it be 201 or 210 lbs?

The site says 6’3 and 195 lbs.

 

[Micklebot]

The must be a typo in the weight. Could it be 201 or 210 lbs?

The site says 6’2 and 192 lbs.

I'm seeing 6'3 195 lbs
2019-20 Men's Hockey Roster - University of North Dakota Athletics

 

[Six Assets]

Pinto was measured at 6-2, 195 at the combine

 

[Micklebot]

Pinto was measured at 6-2, 195 at the combine

He grew a full inch since June?

By my calculations, that means at this rate he should be 6'9 by the time he joins the team as a 21 year old in 2022.

Dorion you genius you,

 

[Tuna99]

I vehemently disagree with this assessment.

Why? Washington and St Louis won the last 2 Cups on size.

What team has won a Cup with speed? LA kings, Chicago, Anaheim, Boston - all recent winners won with size and compete - you could argue that Pitt is a speed team but Crosby is the definition of hard hockey, Canadian style.

Ottawa tried it with skill over grit and got nowhere when the playoffs rolled around

 

[inthewings]

Why? Washington and St Louis won the last 2 Cups on size.

What team has won a Cup with speed? LA kings, Chicago, Anaheim, Boston - all recent winners won with size and compete - you could argue that Pitt is a speed team but Crosby is the definition of hard hockey, Canadian style.

Ottawa tried it with skill over grit and got nowhere when the playoffs rolled around

The Capitals had the best goal-scorer of all-time leading the charge, and their second-best playoff performer has elite skill and isn't big or even remotely physical. They also had Backstrom and Carlson playing at an elite level.

Guys like Oshie, Wilson, and Orpik certainly provided a physical element. If your argument is that it's important to have a roster of complementary pieces, and that physicality is important, then I agree with that. But that can be added. The biggest factor contributing to the success of the Capitals is their insane core of Ovechkin, Backstrom, Kuznetsov, Carlson (Green before him), and for a long time Holtby. Skill on that level is almost impossible to come by. You can find physicality or PK specialists if you need them, but you can't often go out and acquire first line or top pair talent.

Give me a shot at a homerun pick every time and I'll take the busts along with the odd Erik Karlsson or Nick Backstrom. The payoff is worth so much more than drafting the low-ceiling, high-floor types who bring size and physicality but second or third tier skill.

 

[Tuna99]

The Capitals had the best goal-scorer of all-time leading the charge, and their second-best playoff performer has elite skill and isn't big or even remotely physical. They also had Backstrom and Carlson playing at an elite level.

Guys like Oshie, Wilson, and Orpik certainly provided a physical element. If your argument is that it's important to have a roster of complementary pieces, and that physicality is important, then I agree with that. But that can be added. The biggest factor contributing to the success of the Capitals is their insane core of Ovechkin, Backstrom, Kuznetsov, Carlson (Green before him), and for a long time Holtby. Skill on that level is almost impossible to come by. You can find physicality or PK specialists if you need them, but you can't often go out and acquire first line or top pair talent.

Give me a shot at a homerun pick every time and I'll take the busts along with the odd Erik Karlsson or Nick Backstrom. The payoff is worth so much more than drafting the low-ceiling, high-floor types who bring size and physicality but second or third tier skill.

I think we are saying the same thing - Ovechkin is physical and has high compete, I don’t have a problem with OV on any team - my point is I’d rather have OV over Johnny Gaudreau, or Ryan O’Reilly over RNH. I’d take size and compete over skill, I’d rather have Domi over Galchenyuk. I’d rather have Patrice Bergeron over Jason Spezza.

Every team that wins the Cup has elite skill - Tarasenko, Kane, Carter - but your elite guys have to be high end Competitive (and hopefully big).

I don’t want elite skill and low end compete - id take Scheiffle over Zbaf just because I think winning is more important to Schieffle.

 

[BondraTime]

I think we are saying the same thing - Ovechkin is physical and has high compete, I don’t have a problem with OV on any team - my point is I’d rather have OV over Johnny Gaudreau, or Ryan O’Reilly over RNH. I’d take size and compete over skill, I’d rather have Domi over Galchenyuk. I’d rather have Patrice Bergeron over Jason Spezza.

Every team that wins the Cup has elite skill - Tarasenko, Kane, Carter - but your elite guys have to be high end Competitive (and hopefully big).

I don’t want elite skill and low end compete - id take Scheiffle over Zbaf just because I think winning is more important to Schieffle.

Every single player you mentioned you’d rather have is extremely skilled, you’re basically saying you want the extremely skilled that play hard.

I mean, yeah, obviously. Who wouldn’t?

That is taking skill, it’s not taking size and compete.

You remove those guys skills, and they become Lawson Crouse and Michael McCarron. Those two are examples of size and effort over skill, not any if the guys you’ve mentioned.

Skating is literally the #1/2 asset teams are looking for in players, no scout/gm is putting size or compete over that.

 

[Agent Zub]

Why? Washington and St Louis won the last 2 Cups on size.

What team has won a Cup with speed? LA kings, Chicago, Anaheim, Boston - all recent winners won with size and compete - you could argue that Pitt is a speed team but Crosby is the definition of hard hockey, Canadian style.

Ottawa tried it with skill over grit and got nowhere when the playoffs rolled around

You just listed some of the highest skill teams of the last decade lol

 

[MatchesMalone]

I've liked the strategy to keep guys like Brown and Batherson down when they could be struggling in the NHL better than some of the guys we have up. Gotta be mentally taxing to be playing for this Sens team right now; would be especially tough for young players who aren't even sure they belong in the NHL, forced into roles they're not ready for, and losing every night.

I'm a little concerned about Brännström; but he's been handling himself so far, and still plenty of time to send him down if things go south.

The key is we need to hold onto as many of the capable players we currently have as is reasonably possible - DeMelo, one of Tierney/Pageau (both?), and at least a couple of Namestnikov, Brown, Duclair.

A lot of fans here clamoring to trade everyone for more picks and shove kids into the lineup, but f*** that. We already have 11 picks in the 2020 draft. If we're a bottom five team for another three years then who cares about all the picks, they'll just end up coming into a poisonous environment.

After this year we need to start competing, not necessarily for a playoff spot, but at least being in every game and being a difficult team to play against. Remember a couple years ago when the Canes were in the later stages of their rebuild, they were well out of the playoffs, but every opposing player said they hated playing against them. That's what we need to start working towards by next season.

 

[Tuna99]

You just listed some of the highest skill teams of the last decade lol

I don't think any of those team are considered fast or the most skilled in the NHL. Washington was written off many times, St Louis, Kings cane out of nowhere to win, Boston was a surprise. Proof that like last year with Tampa, the speed teams get all the hype but the teams that win in the playoffs are big and compete

 

[Boud]

People always try to point out a single trait of a team and attribute their success to that specific trait. You need skill, speed, size and grit to win. You need great goaltending, you need great coaching, you need good chemistry, you need leaders. You also need luck.

Every year we see skilled teams out of the playoffs, every year we see big and gritty teams out of the playoffs. One year you need amazing defense (2007 Ducks), one year you need amazing offense (Pittsburgh and 2015 Chicago). One year goaltending will be standing out above all (Boston with Tim Thomas). Reality is after a team like St-Louis wins, people will automatically attribute their big and heavy style of play to the win. Every year is different, and every year people seems to change their tune in terms of what you need to win based on the last cup win.

In the end, you need a lot of things to go right, skill and speed are key (IMO the most important two) as are many other things. Bottom line is there are no styles to winning. Teams with different styles and attributes win the cup every year. St-Louis were completely lost at the beginning of the season, same thing for Pittsbugh a couple years ago until they got Sullivan.

 

[Agent Zub]

I don't think any of those team are considered fast or the most skilled in the NHL. Washington was written off many times, St Louis, Kings cane out of nowhere to win, Boston was a surprise. Proof that like last year with Tampa, the speed teams get all the hype but the teams that win in the playoffs are big and compete

No amount of big and compete will make a team without Stanley cup skill win a Stanley Cup.

 

[Yak]

Very tough to gauge the rebuild when you have so many prospects that are mid-level, if half of them make the big team we will be lucky. If half ones that make the team turn into good players that will be great. If half of the good players turn into very good players we also will be lucky.

Rebuilds are huge gamble cause when you clean house with a clean slate and ton of prospects , you never know what you got or how long it will take.

We can say we want to compete next year but the development of these players will decide that and nothing else.

Enjoy the hockey and don't expect anything more then maybe see some players evolve and ton of losses! We are in a tank season and looking for that #1 overall pick is all I care about...ha,ha

 

[Adele Dazeem]

The big slap of reality that Melnyk and Dorion will figure out 2-3 years from now is that even when they have all these top-end prospects in their lineup with their "cost-effective" ELCs, the team will still be barely fighting for a Playoff spot. This team lacks any semblance of veteran leadership and players who can lead by example. The scary part is that by putting these young players in such a shitty/losing culture some of them will not develop to their potential due to the constant negativity. Vicious cycle will repeat itself like it did for the Oilers and the Sabers.

 

[saskytaxi]

They need good vets and team culture to develop Brady and Chabot. Uh oh

 

[Philadelphia Collins]

The big slap of reality that Melnyk and Dorion will figure out 2-3 years from now is that even when they have all these top-end prospects in their lineup with their "cost-effective" ELCs, the team will still be barely fighting for a Playoff spot. This team lacks any semblance of veteran leadership and players who can lead by example. The scary part is that by putting these young players in such a ****ty/losing culture some of them will not develop to their potential due to the constant negativity. Vicious cycle will repeat itself like it did for the Oilers and the Sabres.

would rule if they had a really good RW that could play with White and Tkachuk and help them develop offense instead of being hemmed in your own zone for entire shifts with Tyler Ennis or Bobby Ryan

also could really use a RD to take some heat off Brannstrom instead of lobbing him suicide passes in his own zone over and over like Hainsey does

anyone know where the team could get a RW and RD like that?