The Virtues of Development vs. Winning in the AHL (Read OP)

[WTG]

Say what you will about who didn't play... who did play got us to the finals, while Bertuzzi, Nylander, Larkin and crew are watching from the sidelines.

I'd argue that the benefits this long playoff run is having for players who are our most NHL ready prospects... guys like Grenier, Markstrom, Baertski, Gaunce, Shinkaruk and Corrado... far outweighs any "damage" done to Hutton or McCann's careers.

Virtanen getting playoff ice time is just a nice bonus side effect.

Nylander, Bertuzzi, Larkin were far from the reason their respective teams lost. In fact all those players where a good reason why they got that far.

Hutton is also great. Could have used him right now on the power play. Hutton's extremely good at getting the puck on net.


McCann is a monster. In pre-season you are going to wonder why he wasn't in the playoffs. People are hyping up Cassels right now but honestly I think McCann is better than Cassels right now.

 

[Jimson Hogarth*]

I think part of the worry with McCann is his frame might be a bit slight right now and he simply doesn't have the strength right now to play playoff hockey at this level at the center ice position. A summer of heavy strength training will do wonders for him I think.

 

[Stanley as in Cup]

Sure if it comes to what his favourite birthday cake flavour is.

This made me laugh. Thanks

 

[vanuck]

What kind of organization, not just sports team, but any kind of organization, would risk a years worth of hard work that has almost no margin for error, so a few new employees could get some work expereince?

What an insult to the people who worked so hard to get the project to that point in the first place.

You don't make winners without winning. Why risk the development/confidence gains we have made with Markstrom, Baertshi, Gaunce, Shinkaruk, Corrado, Clendenning, Anderson, Friesen, Grenier, Virtanen and the rest of them, so that McCann or Hutton can get a few games in, or more likely, end up being the goat in a critical game, let down the entire team and organization and take a huge step back?

The margin of error for this team making it to where they have has been very thin at times. Like quadruple overtime 2-1 win kind of thin. Putting a kid under that kind of pressure for no reason, when you are winning and winning the right ways, is just plain silly.

I mean, you would have to forget that the players are actually people, and that's not a way to build an organization.

You'll have to ask the same question to 29 other teams in the AHL who do this when they have an opportunity.

 

[vanuck]

It's a disgrace and a complete joke. I have no idea what the organization is thinking in allowing this garbage to happen.

As others have said, what we're doing is completely unprecedented and flies in the face of both common practice and common sense.

Yeah, they're ****ing up in so many ways it's hilariously sad - hindering McCann's development as well as hurting Utica's chances of being a better team. Not to mention Hutton who is already a better player than the likes of Negrin or Ehrhardt but instead is being told to go home and train because he can't handle bottom pairing minutes - which he would have been more conditioned for had he actually been given those regular season games in the first place.

As usual it's the worst of both worlds when it comes to their horrible decision-making. Overpay an average starter and screw yourself over cap-wise while having to trade a young goalie away just to make the most of it while not even getting an improvement in terms of goaltending. Trade for a mediocre 'win now' return while also hurting our chances of getting better in the long term. Double down on mistakes while forcing good players into the pressbox or to be dealt. It's all just so dumb.

FFS they can't even beat a poor Flames team who they now have to draft behind too.

 

[PM]

Just a few notes from a discussion in the Virtanen thread:

My main gripe is with sending McCann home although the treatment of Hutton pisses me off too but here is what other teams in the AHL finals have done with their available first rounders over the past few years.

Texas had Faksa play, Oleksiak was a AHL regular by then and Dickinson got in for 3 playoff games after playing 2 regular season games. Not sure why he only got 3 but at least he got those in.

For the Jets/IceCaps, all of their first rounders were either in the NHL or played like Morrissey. The only notable omission I can see is Petan and just looking at the numbers I'm not too sure why he didn't play. He's only 5'9 170 lbs now so maybe they thought he was too small last year or he was just injured from the playoffs similar to Cassels. He's also not a first rounder.

Grand Rapids/Detroit had all of their first rounders play but they had a bunch of 2nd rounders that I'm not too sure what they did with. Would require some investigation.

Syracuse/Tampa - Koekkek was injured so he couldn't play, Vasilevski was in Russia still, and Namestnikov and Connolly both played quite a bit. So no first rounders sitting on the sideline for them.

Ottawa's an easy one, Cowen played and was great, Lehner played and was great, Silfverberg was still in Sweden. All 2nd and 1st rounders played if they could and two were instrumental in their win.

For Toronto, looks like Percy and Biggs each got a couple games in so still more than a much superior prospect in McCann.

Basically it looks like we are the only team to leave a high quality first rounder on the sidelines during the most important AHL games of the year. Every other team at least gave theirs a chance with a few games. If Archibald didn't get injured I doubt we see any of Virtanen as well.

 

[DL44]

Okay but none of the guys you mentioned were first rounders, much less first rounders who were the #1 centre on one of the best junior teams in North America. I mean if you want to include guys like Lintuniemi then we should also be including Subban from our side who had a better junior season this year.

The way we are handling first rounders in the AHL is absolutely not the norm if you look at my post before this one.

Edit: I just realized this is the Virtanen thread. I'll copy my post over to the Virtues of Development thread.

Forgive me, cuz i pop in and out of threads and miss a lot if a few pages go by...

So this comes back to McCann for you and only McCann? You are using "first rounders" as a plural... I don't think there are other first rounders that this administration has had an opportunity to handle in the A... Virtanen is up to 8 games and looks like he'll run out the season playing...

For me... without fully understanding or knowing all reasons and circumstance that went into releasing McCann for the summer, I simply can't jump on the 'this administration doesn't know what its doing" train with the few others here... I don't consider myself 'going to considerable lengths to defend the current regime'... I'm just not jumping to the conclusion of incompetence when its completely understandable to think that his conditioning and position were enough to send him to his summer program early...

I watched that Memorial Cup final and it was a drag to watch... the 1.5 minute shifts players took were numbing to watch... players were all on cruise control. I thought to myself... this must of been what it was like to watch hockey in the 70's and 80's...

It's why Virtanen was 20-30 second/shift guy in the first few games... and he's a supposed gym rat.
All too feasible to to think Mcann had a bigger hill to climb for conditioning levels and more roster bodies to surpass to get in as a Center.

So I'm simply in the 'too bad we couldn't see him play, oh well, next yr' camp.
It's not a difficult pill to swallow to assume the organization has the prospect's development and best interests in mind here.

 

[PM]

I was looking at the comparison between how we are treating our first rounders who could play in the AHL playoffs this year compared to how other teams have who have made the finals in the past few years. I don't know enough about other team's prospect pools to say if their 3rd, 4th rounders or later picks should have been playing or not and that would take a lot more time to compile together.

I think most people's contention right now is with the treatment of McCann considering how great he has progressed this year, how important his further progression is considering he may be the only takeaway from the Kesler trade, and how he would most likely help the team now rather than hinder it.

I'm not advocating that all of our CHL prospects play in the AHL finals, you certainly won't hear me make a case for Mckenze Stewart, but a first rounder like McCann should absolutely be playing at least a handful of games. No other franchise in recent years have left a first rounder like McCann on the sidelines during the AHL playoffs.

 

[DL44]

I was looking at the comparison between how we are treating our first rounders who could play in the AHL playoffs this year compared to how other teams have who have made the finals in the past few years. I don't know enough about other team's prospect pools to say if their 3rd, 4th rounders or later picks should have been playing or not and that would take a lot more time to compile together.

I'm not advocating that all of our CHL prospects play in the AHL finals, you certainly won't hear me make a case for Mckenze Stewart, but a first rounder like McCann should absolutely be playing at least a handful of games. No other franchise in recent years have left a first rounder like McCann on the sidelines during the AHL playoffs.

have teams iced multiple 18 yr old prospects deep into their playoff runs that joined the team at the end of the season?
Cuz the Comets are icing Virtanen... so this isn't an organization against using it's 1st round prospects... just McCann.

I just can't assume McCann as mis-treated without knowing anything else... like his conditioning levels or other variables.

 

[arsmaster*]

Virtanen is only in the lineup because of injury DL44. You should read the whole thread.

 

[Jyrki21]

So this comes back to McCann for you and only McCann? You are using "first rounders" as a plural... I don't think there are other first rounders that this administration has had an opportunity to handle in the A... Virtanen is up to 8 games and looks like he'll run out the season playing...

It applies equally to Hutton -- who had plenty of regular season time to play let alone playoffs -- and Virtanen, who is only playing because of injuries to two AHL forwards (Archibald and Bancks). If either of those guys came back tomorrow, I wouldn't be surprised if Jake were to be benched. Or if not, then that sure seems like an indictment of the idea that the junior guys hurt the team relative to the regulars.

I'm just not jumping to the conclusion of incompetence when its completely understandable to think that his conditioning and position were enough to send him to his summer program early...

I watched that Memorial Cup final and it was a drag to watch... the 1.5 minute shifts players took were numbing to watch... players were all on cruise control. I thought to myself... this must of been what it was like to watch hockey in the 70's and 80's...

It's why Virtanen was 20-30 second/shift guy in the first few games... and he's a supposed gym rat.

Why does this seem to be an issue that only affects the Canucks' organization? Occam's razor, particularly in light of the team's other recently unscientific moves, certainly points to incompetence rather than them being smarter than everyone else.

 

[DL44]

Virtanen is only in the lineup because of injury DL44. You should read the whole thread.

Probably true.. because as we saw from his first game..... he wasn't quite ready conditioning wise... It kinda supported what Benning had stated at the time about how Virtanen and McCann were in the gym training hard and working on it...

Injuries pushed his arrival before he was AHL level conditioned...

 

[King Crimson]

I was looking at the comparison between how we are treating our first rounders who could play in the AHL playoffs this year compared to how other teams have who have made the finals in the past few years. I don't know enough about other team's prospect pools to say if their 3rd, 4th rounders or later picks should have been playing or not and that would take a lot more time to compile together.

I think most people's contention right now is with the treatment of McCann considering how great he has progressed this year, how important his further progression is considering he may be the only takeaway from the Kesler trade, and how he would most likely help the team now rather than hinder it.

I'm not advocating that all of our CHL prospects play in the AHL finals, you certainly won't hear me make a case for Mckenze Stewart, but a first rounder like McCann should absolutely be playing at least a handful of games. No other franchise in recent years have left a first rounder like McCann on the sidelines during the AHL playoffs.

But our prospects ARE playing. Markstrom, Clendening, Corrado on the backend, with Pedan only out because of injury.

Up front, the Comets are icing Gaunce, Shinkaruk, Virtanen, Baertschi, Jensen and Grenier. Five of those are first rounders, and one is promising late bloomer. Altogether, that's half of the roster. Just because they're not all fresh out of the draft that doesn't mean that they're not playing our key prospects.

Maybe Hutton or McCann should have gotten a few games in. Green said no. He's also just won his conference. I'm much more inclined to think that he knows what he's doing. Complaining about sending McCann and Hutton home is the epitome of making a mountain out if a molehill. In the big picture, it's a very small problem.

 

[WTG]

Green is just way too loyal towards his guys.

It's pretty obvious what's going on here if you listen to his comments regarding the prospects. He won't put a prospect in the lineup unless they give the team a better chance to win. AKA if Archibald and Virtanen both make the same impact Archibald will play over Virtanen. Is that really how we want our development team to be run? Every single vet on the Comets knows what kind of league this is. They understand that if prospects come in a vet has to sit. If they don't like that then they have the chance to go play pro in Sweden where they don't do this.

The whole treatment of the prospects by Green has been bad. I still think Green's a good coach but he is just not a very good coach when it comes to development. He runs his team like a NHL team instead of a developmental team.


Also, to get this straight. Putting in top prospects like McCann, Hutton, Virtanen does not hurt the team. In fact it makes them better. A team doesn't need a top 6 of all vets to succeed. I have no idea where this idea started but it is completely false and you can't really defend it.

 

[PM]

I believe Pedan has also been cleared to play for at least a few weeks now. The fact he can't break into the lineup when it matters most doesn't bode well for him either. The same issue he had in Bridgeport earlier this year. And it seems like people are just ignoring what I posted about how other teams treated their high first rounders in the same situation. We are the ONLY team in at least the last four years to not give at least 1 game to an available 1st rounder from the CHL such as McCann.

 

[WTG]

But our prospects ARE playing. Markstrom, Clendening, Corrado on the backend, with Pedan only out because of injury.

Up front, the Comets are icing Gaunce, Shinkaruk, Virtanen, Baertschi, Jensen and Grenier. Five of those are first rounders, and one is promising late bloomer. Altogether, that's half of the roster. Just because they're not all fresh out of the draft that doesn't mean that they're not playing our key prospects.

Maybe Hutton or McCann should have gotten a few games in. Green said no. He's also just won his conference. I'm much more inclined to think that he knows what he's doing. Complaining about sending McCann and Hutton home is the epitome of making a mountain out if a molehill. In the big picture, it's a very small problem.

Just because we have a lot of prospects in our prospect pool does not make it right not to play those prospects.


Baertschi has played over 65+ games, he is not considered a prospect any more. Markstrom is 25 years old he is not considered a prospect anymore.

That leaves Gaunce, Shinkaruk, Corrado, Pedan, Clendening, Grenier, Jensen, Virtanen. Pedan and Jensen are both out of the lineup with injury or just being bad. That leaves 6 prospects on a 19 player roster. Currently playing.

Compare that to the GRG they have 15 players under 23 years old on that played at least 10 games on their team.


Even if you play Pedan, Gaunce, Shinkaruk, Corrado, Clendening, Grenier, Jensen, Virtanen, McCann, LaBate, Hutton. That's still 11 players.

 

[King Crimson]

Phantom Misconduct: That doesn't mean much because there are already five recent 1st rounders on the roster.

 

[WTG]

Phantom Misconduct: That doesn't mean much because there are already five recent 1st rounders on the roster.

Who cares where they were drafted?

Phantom Misconduct is right. This is unprecedented.

 

[arsmaster*]

Probably true.. because as we saw from his first game..... he wasn't quite ready conditioning wise... It kinda supported what Benning had stated at the time about how Virtanen and McCann were in the gym training hard and working on it...

Injuries pushed his arrival before he was AHL level conditioned...

I just can't see how Tyler Bertuzzi and Zack Nastasiuk were any better conditioned for the AHL than Virtanen and McCann. The case can be made that McCann doesn't have the strength especially compared to JV and the two big wingers from Grand Rapids, but he's not smaller than William Nylander and he's 8lbs lighter than Dylan Larkin.

I'm just hoping that this year of contending is enough to appease the Utican's and we can run a really young group down their next year, obviously with some higher end AHL vets sprinkled in.

 

[King Crimson]

He was talking about playing first rounders. The first rounders are in fact playing. If you're taking window of precedence to be four years, you're going to find a lot things are "unprecedented"

 

[WTG]

He was talking about playing first rounders. The first rounders are in fact playing. If you're taking window of precedence to be four years, you're going to find a lot things are "unprecedented"

We just sent a top prospect home without even playing a game.

Phantom misconduct was saying how unprecedented that is.

The Red Wings played 15 guys that are under 23 years old this season for at least 10 games.

But what do the Red Wings know about developing players am I right.

 

[DL44]

I just can't see how Tyler Bertuzzi and Zack Nastasiuk were any better conditioned for the AHL than Virtanen and McCann. The case can be made that McCann doesn't have the strength especially compared to JV and the two big wingers from Grand Rapids, but he's not smaller than William Nylander and he's 8lbs lighter than Dylan Larkin.

Nylander and Larkin were both playing vs higher level competition in higher leagues i.e. already experienced vs men.
but in general... you are likely dead on with the strength issue...especially as a center vs much larger, more seasoned, and better conditioned players.. It's a big jump for the kid to make.

I'm just hoping that this year of contending is enough to appease the Utican's and we can run a really young group down their next year, obviously with some higher end AHL vets sprinkled in.

Odd comment. Shot at their fans i suppose?

They are already guaranteed Stewart's arrival... I'm pretty sure Subban, Hutton and Cassels will be transitioned... who else?

Pending AHL UFA's: Archibald, DeFazio, Sanguinetti, O'Reilly, Biega... plus Corrado, Clendening and Baertschi likely graduating....
I don't think anyone has to worry about not fitting a handful of new prospects onto the Comets roster... room for everybody!

I just hope our 2015 first rounder at least gets a couple games of next yr's playoffs, or I may consider getting upset too.

 

[PM]

He was talking about playing first rounders. The first rounders are in fact playing. If you're taking window of precedence to be four years, you're going to find a lot things are "unprecedented"

Not all of them. McCann was sent home and Jensen has been healthy scratched. Markstrom and Baertschi aren't even prospects anymore as WTG said. Now we are down to Shinkaruk, Gaunce and Virtanen with Jake only breaking into the lineup once injuries forced our hand.

If you feel like going back more than four years and digging up the same kind of info as I did then by all means do so. It's more work than it looks.

 

[MS]

Green is just way too loyal towards his guys.

It's pretty obvious what's going on here if you listen to his comments regarding the prospects. He won't put a prospect in the lineup unless they give the team a better chance to win. AKA if Archibald and Virtanen both make the same impact Archibald will play over Virtanen. Is that really how we want our development team to be run? Every single vet on the Comets knows what kind of league this is. They understand that if prospects come in a vet has to sit. If they don't like that then they have the chance to go play pro in Sweden where they don't do this.

The whole treatment of the prospects by Green has been bad. I still think Green's a good coach but he is just not a very good coach when it comes to development. He runs his team like a NHL team instead of a developmental team.


Also, to get this straight. Putting in top prospects like McCann, Hutton, Virtanen does not hurt the team. In fact it makes them better. A team doesn't need a top 6 of all vets to succeed. I have no idea where this idea started but it is completely false and you can't really defend it.

I don't blame Green. He won't be the last coach to prefer veterans to kids and be reluctant to play young players.

It's Vancouver management's job to rein in their young coach and make sure Green is making the correct decisions for the organization. When Virtanen and McCann arrived, he should have been under instructions to get them into the lineup ASAP.

 

[King Crimson]

We just sent a top prospect home without even playing a game.

Phantom misconduct was saying how unprecedented that is.

The Red Wings played 15 guys that are under 23 years old this season for at least 10 games.

But what do the Red Wings know about developing players am I right.

Sure. The Griffins used a really young roster. And then they lost. And now, our prospects in Utica will now get a minimum of 4 more games of development at the peak of AHL hockey. If we're taking a handful of games to be so crucial to a prospect's development, then I think Green hedged his bets rather nicely.