The Virtues of Development vs. Winning in the AHL (Read OP)

[Tobi Wan Kenobi]

Clearly this discussion warrants its own thread, as it has been cycling over and over again in the Utica Thread.

Please contain this debate to this thread; whether it is about Jake Virtanen, Jared McCann, Ben Hutton, Andrey Pedan, or others; the Utica Comets Thread shall remain more topical to the current playoff run they are engaged in.

Please remember; critique the posts, not posters. Remarks that demean Canucks or Comets fans will not be tolerated from either side.​

And can't the same thing be said about OKC? They have played the equivalent of three games now and scored a total of 3 goals. This is playoff hockey and everything tightens up. I don't think it has been mentioned yet but one of the primary reasons why neither team is scoring is the clutching and grabbing is out of control and the refs aren't calling any of it. Welcome to playoff hockey.

OKC dosn't have two premier shooters waiting in the wings. McCann has the best shot in junior hockey.

Click to read more...

 

[Clinton Comets EHL]

Hutton has been with the team for more than 3 days.

and made no impact

 

[Clinton Comets EHL]

Hutton is 22 an has been with the team for a while now. does the coach not feel confident in Hutton?

Green knows what he is doing.

If he thought Hutton was an answer, he would play him. Clearly, there is a reason he isn't.

 

[FOurteenS inCisOr]

and made no impact

A goal isn't an impact? I know it's not much, but it is an impact.

You've been quite hyperbolic in your posts regarding Canucks prospects the last 24hrs.

 

[Clinton Comets EHL]

A goal isn't an impact? I know it's not much, but it is an impact.

You've been quite hyperbolic in your posts regarding Canucks prospects the last 24hrs.

Because a player gets a goal in his first professional game he is an impact player? Really?

John Negrin has a goal this year.

I want all the Canucks prospects to do well and succeed at the highest level.

If Benning wanted them inserted, they would have been by now.

To insert young junior players who have had 2 practices and become a liability defensively is crazy. They are not Connor McDavid.

BTW, the Comets, the whole league for that matter, are all playing the same developmental 2-1 style hockey. Magnified during the playoffs. To think inserting 2 18 year olds so they can light it up is ridiculous.

 

[vanuck]

Green knows what he is doing.

If he thought Hutton was an answer, he would play him. Clearly, there is a reason he isn't.

I must disagree with this line of thinking. We literally just saw an NHL coach roll 4 lines one after the other in the Canucks-Flames series with utter disregard for things like line-matching and last change. This is a dude who won a freaking Calder Cup with the Texas Stars last year to boot.

After that episode, I don't think it's unreasonable to question anything the guys behind the bench do. "Coaches should never be questioned" should be thrown out the window IMO. And that's just getting into one premise of this argument too.

 

[Clinton Comets EHL]

I must disagree with this line of thinking. We literally just saw an NHL coach roll 4 lines one after the other in the Canucks-Flames series with utter disregard for things like line-matching and last change. This is a dude who won a freaking Calder Cup with the Texas Stars last year to boot.

After that episode, I don't think it's unreasonable to question anything the guys behind the bench do. "Coaches should never be questioned" should be thrown out the window IMO. And that's just getting into one premise of this argument too.

Green isn't Willie but I get your point. If Benning and Linden wanted him playing, he would be playing.

 

[Clinton Comets EHL]

I must disagree with this line of thinking. We literally just saw an NHL coach roll 4 lines one after the other in the Canucks-Flames series with utter disregard for things like line-matching and last change. This is a dude who won a freaking Calder Cup with the Texas Stars last year to boot.

After that episode, I don't think it's unreasonable to question anything the guys behind the bench do. "Coaches should never be questioned" should be thrown out the window IMO. And that's just getting into one premise of this argument too.

There certainly could be a good argument made that if the T Stars hadn't won the Calder Cup, the Canucks wouldn't have given him a sniff.

 

[Clinton Comets EHL]

I must disagree with this line of thinking. We literally just saw an NHL coach roll 4 lines one after the other in the Canucks-Flames series with utter disregard for things like line-matching and last change. This is a dude who won a freaking Calder Cup with the Texas Stars last year to boot.

After that episode, I don't think it's unreasonable to question anything the guys behind the bench do. "Coaches should never be questioned" should be thrown out the window IMO. And that's just getting into one premise of this argument too.

"Coaches should never be questioned" I agree. Come watch the Comets power play for 38 regular season and 5 playoff games so far. I question Green plenty.

 

[Peen]

BG what's your position within the Comets organization, you have far too intimate a knowledge of everything going on for a regular fan or even season ticket holder

I think it just comes down to it being a smaller team in a smaller city.

The organization seems connected w its fanbase

 

[WTG]

http://www.quanthockey.com/ahl/en/player-age/18-year-old-ahl-players-playoff-stats.html

Plenty of 18 year olds have stepped in and helped their club out.

Eight different 18 year olds have played for their club this playoffs.

This isn't something new and revolutionary, last night McCann should have played.

 

[vanuck]

Green isn't Willie but I get your point. If Benning and Linden wanted him playing, he would be playing.

"Coaches should never be questioned" I agree. Come watch the Comets power play for 38 regular season and 5 playoff games so far. I question Green plenty.

The thing is that Benning has already come out and said that they're leaving the decision to play rookies up to Green so far. If you believe that, then it really is just Green's choice and nobody else's.

 

[van22]

http://www.quanthockey.com/ahl/en/player-age/18-year-old-ahl-players-playoff-stats.html

Plenty of 18 year olds have stepped in and helped their club out.

Eight different 18 year olds have played for their club this playoffs.

This isn't something new and revolutionary, last night McCann should have played.

But how many were with their teams before the start of the playoffs and got a few regular season games beforehand?
Did any join in the 2nd round of the playoffs and played after less than a week of practice?
How many came from European leagues where they were already playing against men and had playoff experience?

 

[WTG]

But how many were with their teams before the start of the playoffs and got a few regular season games beforehand?
Did any join in the 2nd round of the playoffs and played after less than a week of practice?
How many came from European leagues where they were already playing against men and had playoff experience?

I'm not going to do your research for you.

 

[van22]

I'm not going to do your research for you.

I didn't expect you to - we both know the answer.
Forgot to thank you for the link btw.

 

[WTG]

I didn't expect you to - we both know the answer.
Forgot to thank you for the link btw.

lol wut.... If Draisaitl was avialable do you really think he wouldn't be playing? The reason why some of these other teams prospects aren't playing is because they are included in CHL playoff runs.

The only team not playing their prospects are Barons and Utica.

Still doesn't explain Hutton either.

 

[Clinton Comets EHL]

http://www.quanthockey.com/ahl/en/player-age/18-year-old-ahl-players-playoff-stats.html

Plenty of 18 year olds have stepped in and helped their club out.

Eight different 18 year olds have played for their club this playoffs.

This isn't something new and revolutionary, last night McCann should have played.

Boils down to this: Green didn't think so and Benning / Linden must not have thought so either. You think McCann should have stepped into a 2nd round playoff game against men after playing with boys all year. Some others agree with you.

Some others don't agree with you, including me.

All this being said, it doesn't matter who you or I think should be playing.

Don't look for any 18 year olds to be playing unless we fall behinf 3-1 and don't score a goal the next 2 games. That is close to reality, I agree, but 2 practices and throw them in?

Sorry, I don't see it.

I will say as a Comets fan: If they stepped in and helped, I along with 3834 others will be cheering for them. Will cheer for them even if they didn't make an impact.

 

[WTG]

I have watched a **** ton of McCann's games and I can say that he will impact the team positively if he plays.

I'm confident in that statement.

 

[van22]

lol wut.... If Draisaitl was avialable do you really think he wouldn't be playing? The reason why some of these other teams prospects aren't playing is because they are included in CHL playoff runs.

The only team not playing their prospects are Barons and Utica.

Still doesn't explain Hutton either.

Draisaitl played in the NHL - I would expect him to play if he was available. As I would expect Virtanen and McCann to play if they had the opportunity to get a few regular season games before the playoffs. It's about putting them in a position to succeed and feel comfortable with the system.

Based on that list, it looks like for this season the only one who came in "cold" with no experience against men (NHL, abroad) or regular games before the start of the playoffs was Perlini.

 

[WTG]

Draisaitl played in the NHL - I would expect him to play if he was available. As I would expect Virtanen and McCann to play if they had the opportunity to get a few regular season games before the playoffs. It's about putting them in a position to succeed and feel comfortable with the system.

Based on that list, it looks like for this season the only one who came in "cold" with no experience against men (NHL, abroad) or regular games before the start of the playoffs was Perlini.

McCann just came back from the OHL playoffs playing against McDavid. A player that's arguably better than any one on that Barons team.

Show me a player that comes in cold and plays terrible. Why is the onus on me to prove that McCann can play at this level? Why can't he play at a AHL level. He's a top 15 scorer in the OHL. #1 center for the best regular season team in the entire CHL. What has you so convinced that he can't handle a 3rd line role in the AHL?

 

[vanuck]

McCann just came back from the OHL playoffs playing against McDavid. A player that's arguably better than any one on that Barons team.

Show me a player that comes in cold and plays terrible. Why is the onus on me to prove that McCann can play at this level? Why can't he play at a AHL level. He's a top 15 scorer in the OHL. #1 center for the best regular season team in the entire CHL. What has you so convinced that he can't handle a 3rd line role in the AHL?

On top of that, Cody Hodgson stepped into the Moose lineup in their 2009 Cup run with no regular season game experience. That was coming off a loss in the OHL final, similar to McCann who will have been playing above-average junior competition for the past few weeks, not to mention that dude called McDavid.

 

[FOurteenS inCisOr]

Because a player gets a goal in his first professional game he is an impact player? Really?

John Negrin has a goal this year.

I want all the Canucks prospects to do well and succeed at the highest level.

If Benning wanted them inserted, they would have been by now.

To insert young junior players who have had 2 practices and become a liability defensively is crazy. They are not Connor McDavid.

BTW, the Comets, the whole league for that matter, are all playing the same developmental 2-1 style hockey. Magnified during the playoffs. To think inserting 2 18 year olds so they can light it up is ridiculous.

How many games has Negrin played?

I simply said he made an impact after you claimed he didn't—a goal.

I'm sure if he'd been given more games he could make more of an impact.

 

[van22]

McCann just came back from the OHL playoffs playing against McDavid. A player that's arguably better than any one on that Barons team.

Show me a player that comes in cold and plays terrible. Why is the onus on me to prove that McCann can play at this level? Why can't he play at a AHL level. He's a top 15 scorer in the OHL. #1 center for the best regular season team in the entire CHL. What has you so convinced that he can't handle a 3rd line role in the AHL?

Because I never thought that Fiala would be as worried after his first games coming into the league. He had played against men in Sweden/at the Worlds (against several NHLers) and had looked fine in the pre-season games (he was the last one cut at camp) and was still pretty rattled.

You think they are ready and will undoubtedly help the team win - I cannot judge because I don't see them at practice. I don't know if they can execute the system to a reasonable level (even NHLers when they change teams don't always manage to be efficient before several games and even end up being scratched although they were judged as good players on their previous teams). I also don't think that I have the authority over someone that does that as a living to be able to judge accurately. I simply want all the odds to be put on their side for them to succeed.

So yes, I am willing to trust Green on that - his track record of developing young players and the relief of Sven to be again coached by him as well as his interviews where it seems apparent that he genuinely cares about all his players and wants them to succeed. He was already very complimentary of both McCann and Virtanen and said that they would draw in if they could help the team win - I find that to be a pragmatic and fair approach.

 

[WTG]

Because I never thought that Fiala would be as worried after his first games coming into the league. He had played against men in Sweden/at the Worlds (against several NHLers) and had looked fine in the pre-season games (he was the last one cut at camp) and was still pretty rattled.

You think they are ready and will undoubtedly help the team win - I cannot judge because I don't see them at practice. I don't know if they can execute the system to a reasonable level (even NHLers when they change teams don't always manage to be efficient before several games and even end up being scratched although they were judged as good players on their previous teams). I also don't think that I have the authority over someone that does that as a living to be able to judge accurately. I simply want all the odds to be put on their side for them to succeed.

So yes, I am willing to trust Green on that - his track record of developing young players and the relief of Sven to be again coached by him as well as his interviews where it seems apparent that he genuinely cares about all his players and wants them to succeed. He was already very complimentary of both McCann and Virtanen and said that they would draw in if they could help the team win - I find that to be a pragmatic and fair approach.

Honestly, that's relatively fair thing to say. There are things going on behind the scenes that I have no idea about. Green is a smart guy, no questioning that, I just think that the loyalty he has with his team is a bit too strong.

His refusal to play Hutton over Negrin/Ehrhart is the one that really irks me. Hutton was a #1 defenseman in the NCAA, the NCAA isn't that far off in skill level compared to the AHL. Fairly similar actually. So why did Green constantly scratch Hutton in favor of players that aren't as skilled as Hutton?

This playoff series Zaweleski has been invisible. You have the perfect opportunity to sub in a spark plug like McCann that has a really good scoring touch. But he refuses and plays Zaweleski again, and again Zaweleski is a completely non-factor. It seems like he isn't really changing up his lineup and using the depth that he has at his exposal. Utica basically played 2 games in 1 night, everyone is exhausted why not use your depth to sub some guys in. I don't understand.

IDK, I question Green's overwhelming loyalty toward guys like Zaweleski, Negrin, Ehrhart.

Also, I don't understand if Andersson was available that they chose to play Ehrhart instead. I'd much rather have Andersson playing.

 

[Ziostilon]

Hutton was a #1 defenseman in the NCAA, the NCAA isn't that far off in skill level compared to the AHL. Fairly similar actually. So why did Green constantly scratch Hutton in favor of players that aren't as skilled as Hutton?

The level of play from NCAA to AHL is a large enough difference as discussed in previous pages

You'd have a better case if Hutton had been coming off a season like the one prior.
However, his '14-'15 season hasn't matched the one previous. And Maine as a whole wasn't as good a team either.