The Virtues of Development vs. Winning in the AHL (Read OP)

[WTG]

Sure. The Griffins used a really young roster. And then they lost. And now, our prospects in Utica will now get a minimum of 4 more games of development at the peak of AHL hockey. If we're taking a handful of games to be so crucial to a prospect's development, then I think Green hedged his bets rather nicely.

If it wasn't for bertuzzi and Larkin they would have lost a lot fasteR.

McCullem is the reason the Griffins lost not their young roster.

Plus Markstrom basically stole game 5 and 6.

 

[arsmaster*]

Odd comment. Shot at their fans i suppose?

They are already guaranteed Stewart's arrival... I'm pretty sure Subban, Hutton and Cassels will be transitioned... who else?

Pending AHL UFA's: Archibald, DeFazio, Sanguinetti, O'Reilly, Biega... plus Corrado, Clendening and Baertschi likely graduating....
I don't think anyone has to worry about not fitting a handful of new prospects onto the Comets roster... room for everybody!

I just hope our 2015 first rounder at least gets a couple games of next yr's playoffs, or I may consider getting upset too.

It's not a shot at their fans at all. But you should know this thread exists because this topic was being discussed rather heavily in the Utica specific thread.

 

[MS]

The lack of grasp that so many people seem to have between correlation and causation is truly amazing.

 

[vancityluongo]

Funny how many of the people who are preaching that these "players are people!!" want to tear the big club apart and ship off any Canuck that's been on the roster for more than 3 years.

It's a business. Do you think young players who get traded for superstars at the deadline hold lifelong animosity against their former teams? Are veterans with expiring deals bitter when they get dealt to a playoff bound team, causing them to move once, and possibly again during free agency? Of course not.

McCann based on his pedigree and OHL production should be better than a good number of the Comets. If he's not, that's a problem. If he is, than the Comets are making a baffling decision by sitting a superior player.

 

[vanuck]

Here's a thought: what if Bancks never got injured? They might have sent Virtanen home along with the other 2 as well to start his offseason training. How ****ing ridiculous would that have been? He got in for all the wrong reasons, and McCann + Hutton sent home for all the wrong reasons.

 

[Wilch]

Here's a thought: what if Bancks never got injured? They might have sent Virtanen home along with the other 2 as well to start his offseason training. How ****ing ridiculous would that have been? He got in for all the wrong reasons, and McCann + Hutton sent home for all the wrong reasons.

Interestingly enough, Lack and Kassian both shone for the wrong (and same) reasons.

 

[vanuck]

Interestingly enough, Lack and Kassian both shone for the wrong (and same) reasons.

Exactly - both were only really given an opportunity when there was an injury and did well in spite of the team. Everything about this management just screams incompetent and it's sadly not too much of a surprise that we're seeing this happen at the AHL level too.

 

[absolute garbage]

The lack of grasp that so many people seem to have between correlation and causation is truly amazing.

Probably the same people who for a while insisted Sbisa was a good player because the team he played improved a lot from last season when he wasn't on the team, got 102 points and made the playoffs.

 

[StrictlyCommercial]

Probably the same people who for a while insisted Sbisa was a good player because the team he played improved a lot from last season when he wasn't on the team, got 102 points and made the playoffs.

Ironically, the best defense for Sbisa is that he had to play with Bieksa. The reverse is also the best defense for Bieksa though. WHO STIRS THE DRINK?!?

(McCann not getting a single game is dumb. I really believe you learn more playing at a higher level than not at all. Must be crazy.)

 

[Numbers]

Utica is doing great and has numerous prospects with NHL upside playing important roles:

1. Forwards: Baertschi, Virtanen, Gaunce, Shinkaruk, Grenier

2 Defence: Corrado, Clendening

3. Goalie: Markstrom

From my count that is 8 solid prospects, nearly half of the game day roster. A lot of people are complaining they aren't playing youth enough, however young players need to learn from veterans. Development looks good.

 

[WTG]

Utica is doing great and has numerous prospects with NHL upside playing important roles:

1. Forwards: Baertschi, Virtanen, Gaunce, Shinkaruk, Grenier

2 Defence: Corrado, Clendening

3. Goalie: Markstrom

From my count that is 8 solid prospects, nearly half of the game day roster. A lot of people are complaining they aren't playing youth enough, however young players need to learn from veterans. Development looks good.

1. Forwards :
- Baertschi: is not a prospect any more 65+ games. But yes he is in a very prominent role.
- Virtanen: Second unit power play for our best prospect + only got playing time due to an injury.
- Gaunce: 6th highest point scorer in the playoffs--> playing in the bottom 6 and only on the 2nd unit. Also, was scratched for 2 games.
- Shinkaruk: 1 dimensional top 6 or bust forwards is playing on the 4th line while Conacher who went pointless in 9 games took over his spot.
- Grenier: No complaints.
- McCann: Sent home without 1 game which is a joke.

2. Defenseman:
- Corrado: Playing well should get his spot back on the 2nd unit PP.
- Clendening: Top PMD in our system is getting 2nd unit PP time for some reason. Great development.
- Pedan: Cleared to play a while ago but still not playing.
- Hutton: Scratched in favor of Ehrhardt and Negrin.

3. Goaltender:
- Markstrom: Not a prospect, he's 25 years old.

 

[David Bruce Banner]

I don't get this "not a prospect" talk. Until Baertschi, Markstrom, Corrado or whoever make the big team... or prove that they have no NHL potential... they're totally "prospects".

And whatever caused them to play Virtanen aside, at least he's playing, and that's good enough for me. We don't know that he wouldn't have subbed in for Archibald by this point anyway.

The rest of the guys are playing their roles, and what's more important... still playing their roles, rather than sitting round at home.

My only real question is regarding Erhardt playing over Hutton or even Pedan. Negrin hasn't played a game in the playoffs, so he's not an issue.

 

[WTG]

I don't get this "not a prospect" talk. Until Baertschi, Markstrom, Corrado or whoever make the big team... or prove that they have no NHL potential... they're totally "prospects".

And whatever caused them to play Virtanen aside, at least he's playing, and that's good enough for me. We don't know that he wouldn't have subbed in for Archibald by this point anyway.

The rest of the guys are playing their roles, and what's more important... still playing their roles, rather than sitting round at home.

My only real question is regarding Erhardt playing over Hutton or even Pedan. Negrin hasn't played a game in the playoffs, so he's not an issue.

Markstrom is a AHL goaltender till he proves he can preform at the NHL level. Conacher isn't a prospect either so neither is Markstrom.

Baertschi I guess you can call a prospect. But technically he's played 65+ games so he is a NHL player or a AHL player.

 

[van22]

The AHL has a rule where only 6 veteran players can dress per game - the other players have to still be in development. It's set at 260 pro-games (without play-offs) at the start of the season. Pulkkinen for example should have had veteran status as he had 261 pro-games (as per eliteprospects) at the start of this season - games in the top European pro-leagues count. He was already close to 200 pro-games before he even played his first AHL game at age 21 back in the 2012/13 play-offs.

For what I can tell there are only 4 veterans for now (as per AHL rules): O'Reilly, Biega, Sanguinetti, Huskins. Conacher will become a vet this upcoming season.

Was also looking up the Monarchs players and they seem to have 5 regular vets (including Bissonette and Schultz) in their lineup but they also have a handful of undrafted NCAA players. Like the Comets they have also brought in several of their prospects.

The only one that played so far in the post-season is Adrian Kempe (2014 1st round #29) - which is kind of expected given that he has already been playing pro-hockey for 2 years in the top Swedish league and even has post-season experience.

They signed Jonny Brodzinski at the start of April. He was 1pt shy of leading his team in scoring in the NCAA (38pts in 40 games) and was on the 1st All-star NCAA (NCHC) team but he hasn't drawn in yet. They said he had a minor injury when he joined mid-April but that was 7 weeks ago and his season was over back in March - maybe still rehabbing.

They have also brought in Alex Lintuniemi on D (2014 2nd round #60 - 36pts in 58 games in the OHL) but so far he has only played 4 regular season games. It's unclear if they recalled Valentin Zykov (2013 2nd#37) from the QMJHL.

 

[vanuck]

Really have to question the decision to send McCann and Hutton home. Injuries to guys like Sanguinetti, Baertschi and Hamilton look like they're taking its toll on the Comets and it doesn't seem like there's any help coming. Blomstrand, Fox, Labate, McCann + Hutton all on the sidelines but we don't know if they'll be any good as injury replacements because we didn't give them a look when we had a chance.

Where's Subban right now anyway?

 

[MS]

Really have to question the decision to send McCann and Hutton home. Injuries to guys like Sanguinetti, Baertschi and Hamilton look like they're taking its toll on the Comets and it doesn't seem like there's any help coming. Blomstrand, Fox, Labate, McCann + Hutton all on the sidelines but we don't know if they'll be any good as injury replacements because we didn't give them a look when we had a chance.

Where's Subban right now anyway?

It's just a total joke.

 

[Samzilla]

for an organization that's never won anything, our management sure seems to know better than everyone else

 

[vanuck]

It's just a total joke.

for an organization that's never won anything, our management sure seems to know better than everyone else

After all the claims made about these guys not playing but supposedly still benefiting from "soaking up experience of being in the pros while being in a winning atmosphere", they aren't even doing that anymore. So much for that.

The amount of dumb in this organization right now is just sickening. And hilarious if it weren't the Canucks.

 

[PJ Kings Hockey]

The AHL has a rule where only 6 veteran players can dress per game - the other players have to still be in development. It's set at 260 pro-games (without play-offs) at the start of the season. Pulkkinen for example should have had veteran status as he had 261 pro-games (as per eliteprospects) at the start of this season - games in the top European pro-leagues count. He was already close to 200 pro-games before he even played his first AHL game at age 21 back in the 2012/13 play-offs.

For what I can tell there are only 4 veterans for now (as per AHL rules): O'Reilly, Biega, Sanguinetti, Huskins. Conacher will become a vet this upcoming season.

Was also looking up the Monarchs players and they seem to have 5 regular vets (including Bissonette and Schultz) in their lineup but they also have a handful of undrafted NCAA players. Like the Comets they have also brought in several of their prospects.

The only one that played so far in the post-season is Adrian Kempe (2014 1st round #29) - which is kind of expected given that he has already been playing pro-hockey for 2 years in the top Swedish league and even has post-season experience.

They signed Jonny Brodzinski at the start of April. He was 1pt shy of leading his team in scoring in the NCAA (38pts in 40 games) and was on the 1st All-star NCAA (NCHC) team but he hasn't drawn in yet. They said he had a minor injury when he joined mid-April but that was 7 weeks ago and his season was over back in March - maybe still rehabbing.

They have also brought in Alex Lintuniemi on D (2014 2nd round #60 - 36pts in 58 games in the OHL) but so far he has only played 4 regular season games. It's unclear if they recalled Valentin Zykov (2013 2nd#37) from the QMJHL.

Fine research. Zykov did arrive in Manchester and the four new guys experienced the atmosphere for a time, but Brodzinski, Lintuniemi and Zykov were sent home some weeks ago, leaving Adrian Kempe to get tutored by veteran Bissonnette.

ETA: Evidently.

 

[DL44]

t

Fine research. Zykov did arrive in Manchester and the four of the new guys experienced the atmosphere for a time, but Brodzinski, Lintuniemi and Zykov were sent home some weeks ago, leaving Adrian Kempe to get tutored by veteran Bissonnette.

Holy crap...2 time Stanley Cup winner GM Lombardi is also a total joke?

 

[vanuck]

Holy crap...2 time Stanley Cup winner GM Lombardi is also a total joke?

So why don't they have these guys sticking around to learn the pro life by osmosis?

Also, if the Monarchs somehow end up running out of trustworthy warm bodies like the Comets might then they're going to look pretty silly too.

 

[MS]

Holy crap...2 time Stanley Cup winner GM Lombardi is also a total joke?

These guys are not the same as a blue-chip #1 pick like McCann. They're playing their version of McCann.

Nobody is complaining that Subban and Labate aren't suiting up. And I'm fine with Hutton not playing in the playoffs as well ... it was not playing him for 15 nearly-meaningless regular season games in favour of Negrin and Ehrhardt that was the problem.

 

[DL44]

So why don't they have these guys sticking around to learn the pro life by osmosis?

Maybe because they determined it was more valuable for the prospects and their up coming seasons to get into their summer programs.

I'm a huge proponent of the 'soaking it in' thing... I wanted Cassels to just be there for the ride as well and start training to see how the pros do it... but injuries precluded that.
But at some point, Benning has to weigh: Is it more valuable to have the guys travelling to sit in pressboxes, and using the Fitness World in Grand Rapids or Manchester... or will the additional month of dedicated training at the home training facility with consistent routines with the same trainers and training partners be more valuable?

Don't know why its so hard to accept that they just might know exactly what they're doing and have the best interests of their prospects' development in mind here...

Also, if the Monarchs somehow end up running out of trustworthy warm bodies like the Comets might then they're going to look pretty silly too.

Looking at the list of extras listed on each team's rosters... there isn't a risk of running out of trustworthy warm bodies.

 

[vanuck]

Maybe because they determined it was more valuable for the prospects and their up coming seasons to get into their summer programs.

I'm a huge proponent of the 'soaking it in' thing... I wanted Cassels to just be there for the ride as well and start training to see how the pros do it... but injuries precluded that.
But at some point, Benning has to weigh: Is it more valuable to have the guys travelling to sit in pressboxes, and using the Fitness World in Grand Rapids or Manchester... or will the additional month of dedicated training at the home training facility with consistent routines with the same trainers and training partners be more valuable?

Don't know why its so hard to accept that they just might know exactly what they're doing and have the best interests of their prospects' development in mind here...

Playing games (that guys like Hutton and McCann should have done) is always better for a prospect's development. Given the role of the farm team, it was always a silly argument and more so if you can't even let them stick around to learn the pro game. Sending these guys home when they should be better than the guys they were proposed to be replacing at the time (Zalewski, Negrin/Ehrhardt) is not the best option for their development and for the Comets. It's a bad thing on both fronts.

Again, I ask this: what if Bancks had never gotten injured and Virtanen got sent home? Too bad then...?

Looking at the list of extras listed on each team's rosters... there isn't a risk of running out of trustworthy warm bodies.

If you're looking at forwards, someone like Labate who got 2 games and then scratched the rest of the way does not strike me as the type who's earned Green's trust. Blomstrand and Valk didn't get a look all year. As for defence, there's Negrin and Ehrhardt I guess...

 

[FroshaugFan2]

It's quite possible I missed someone, but I believe that every non-NHLer first round pick from the past two drafts suited up for their AHL team this season if it was a possibility. Save McCann that is.

Anyways. Here's some good insight from Kyle Dubas regarding how the Maple Leafs see this topic.

We want the team to win and that’s important because it serves as a great experience for our players; our primary goal with the Marlies is solely that we have a lot of young players playing, and more [important] than winning is that they’re developing and they’re coming along to where the public, the media, and most importantly here internally, where we see them as guys who can step in and be a part of the Leafs. Winning is important with the Marlies, but it is not even close to the top of the list in terms of what we are using to evaluate what’s happening there.

http://mapleleafshotstove.com/2015/06/08/kyle-dubas-on-leafs-lunch/