The Virtues of Development vs. Winning in the AHL (Read OP)

[Jay Cee]

Hopefully McCann (still looking for a good nickname) gets a chance and he is motivated by the wait.

 

[van22]

Yeah I was on of those who were peeved at the Wolves for not giving our top prospects (Jensen, Schroeder) the best ice time in favour of guys like Haydar and Ebbett. Looking back, at least Jensen and Schroeder got to play at all instead of being scratched for role players.

I never would have imagined our current AHL farm team not dressing a recent 1st rounder who happens to be one of the best CHL players and a Hobey Baker finalist in favour of keeping AHL lifers in the lineup. Good organizations make room for these kinds of high calibre prospects. Guys like Zalewski, Negrin, Earhardt and yes even role players like Hamilton and Bancks are all expendable and I doubt half of them are even signed for us next season.

Hell, I'm pretty sure both Andersson and Conacher are already signed to play in Europe next year (see below for Conch), what do we get out of playing them now? Winning the Calder Cup is nice and all and would be great for the fans of Utica but for a NHL organization that still hasn't won a cup in over forty years I would put the development of our prospects ahead of hanging a banner at the Aud.

Developing guys like McCann and Hutton is more important to the Canucks franchise than winning a Calder Cup in my opinion and really a good organization should be able to accomplish both. The Sens played their young prospects during their Calder Cup win (pretty sure Cowen went straight from the CHL to the AHL and was one of their best players), Grand Rapids has shown no issue with throwing prospects to the Wolves and they have won recently and likewise with Syracuse who has produced some of the best young NHLers in the past few years. What the Canucks are doing right now is going against the grain, and if there is one thing that being a fan of the Canucks has taught me is that when we go against the grain and try to look smarter than everyone else we fall on our face and achieve the opposite.

[...]

Do you think prospects like Shinkaruk, Gaunce would agree with you? Don't you think you risk having these prospects be dejected in the organisation? I mean their objective of the year (other than being called up) is the Calder Cup? How can you expect them to understand that the team that signed them says - it might be your objective but it's not ours, we prefer giving McCann ice time and experience over what you have worked for the whole year.

If McCann is ready it's a moot point as he would be in the lineup but for now the Canucks/Comets have deemed him not ready. You might disagree and I can't speculate whether he is ready or not. But you also seem to say that he has to be put in the lineup regardless because his development is more important than winning the Calder Cup. So again how do you present that to the other prospects and have them still believe in the organisation?

 

[PM]

Do you think prospects like Shinkaruk, Gaunce would agree with you? Don't you think you risk having these prospects be dejected in the organisation? I mean their objective of the year (other than being called up) is the Calder Cup? How can you expect them to understand that the team that signed them says - it might be your objective but it's not ours, we prefer giving McCann ice time and experience over what you have worked for the whole year.

If McCann is ready it's a moot point as he would be in the lineup but for now the Canucks/Comets have deemed him not ready. You might disagree and I can't speculate whether he is ready or not. But you also seem to say that he has to be put in the lineup regardless because his development is more important than winning the Calder Cup. So again how do you present that to the other prospects and have them still believe in the organisation?

You don't have to present anything to the other prospects. This is a development league for developing players. If they can't understand that then that is their problem. Guys like Shinkaruk and Gaunce are focussed on making the NHL first and foremost. Not to mention that inserting good young players like McCann and Hutton may actually benefit them in the end and I'm sure they (Shinkaruk, Gaunce) would have liked to be afforded the same chances if their birth years aligned to lend them that opportunity.

Not inserting prospects into the lineups because it may deject the other prospects is absolutely ridiculous and 29 other teams don't seem to have that problem. It may deject the AHL lifers who are being shoved out but those guys are not of long term value to the organization and that is just how life works. Lesser quality personnel are constantly being pushed out for higher quality personnel in every industry.

 

[Tampacuseforever]

You don't have to present anything to the other prospects. This is a development league for developing players. If they can't understand that then that is their problem. Guys like Shinkaruk and Gaunce are focussed on making the NHL first and foremost. Not to mention that inserting good young players like McCann and Hutton may actually benefit them in the end and I'm sure they (Shinkaruk, Gaunce) would have liked to be afforded the same chances if their birth years aligned to lend them that opportunity.

Not inserting prospects into the lineups because it may deject the other prospects is absolutely ridiculous and 29 other teams don't seem to have that problem. It may deject the AHL lifers who are being shoved out but those guys are not of long term value to the organization and that is just how life works. Lesser quality personnel are constantly being pushed out for higher quality personnel in every industry.

What your going to create is a losing atmosphere, there is a lesson to be learned by winning. Again these guys need to beat out players in order to play. NO GIFTS. I don't care what round you were picked in you need to earn it. if the coaching staff feels someone would help I'm sure they would put them in.

 

[PM]

What your going to create is a losing atmosphere, there is a lesson to be learned by winning. Again these guys need to beat out players in order to play. NO GIFTS. I don't care what round you were picked in you need to earn it. if the coaching staff feels someone would help I'm sure they would put them in.

This is nonsense. Binghamton didn't create a losing atmosphere when they inserted Jared Cowen into the lineup in 2011 straight from juniors. They actually won the Calder Cup that year, something we haven't done yet, and he played a big part in it. Did the Flyers create a losing atmosphere with the Phantoms when they "gifted" roster spots to Carter and Richards? Oh wait, they won too, largely because of those two.

Is it really "gifting" a spot when you insert a clearly more skilled yet younger player over a less skilled but older player? Are we so special that we are the only NHL/AHL franchise that has to have our players earn spots in training camp in September and can't make mid year additions?

Syracuse, Grand Rapids, Binghamton, all AHL teams that have recently won the Calder Cup and have ZERO issues with "gifting" roster spots to highly skilled drafted talent as we are seeing right now with Larkin.

Until someone actually gives an example of where holding a young prospect back from the AHL has helped them I will consider these points nonsense. There are far more examples pointing against your opinion than examples for it. Please let me know if you have an example of this as I'm genuinely curious.

 

[Drew Doubty]

Hopefully McCann (still looking for a good nickname) gets a chance and he is motivated by the wait.

Canner, Can man, J-Mac

Seriously, not everyone needs a nickname lol.

 

[arsmaster*]

What your going to create is a losing atmosphere, there is a lesson to be learned by winning. Again these guys need to beat out players in order to play. NO GIFTS. I don't care what round you were picked in you need to earn it. if the coaching staff feels someone would help I'm sure they would put them in.

Virtanen has helped and the only reason he got in was injury.

 

[WTG]

What your going to create is a losing atmosphere, there is a lesson to be learned by winning. Again these guys need to beat out players in order to play. NO GIFTS. I don't care what round you were picked in you need to earn it. if the coaching staff feels someone would help I'm sure they would put them in.

Wait what?

This whole losing atmosphere is a bunch of crap. No we won't lose because we have a Hobey Baker finalist on our team, no we won't lose because we have the #1c of one of the best CHL teams on the team. This idea that somehow we become a worse team if we don't play vets is completely bogus. Young players can make an impact.

Look at Tyler Bertuzzi for example, he's lighting it up. Then compare his stats in the OHL to McCann's, they are almost identical. Who's to say that McCann can't do what Bertuzzi is doing? Why would we all of a sudden lose a game by playing a prospect? That makes no sense.


There is a difference between gifting a player top 6 time which they did with Conacher when he went pointless in 9 games. And putting a prospect in the lineup. One is gifting a player that is under preforming ice time the other is basically giving a prospect a try out see how he handles it. Keep in mind, Green was basically forced to play Virtanen because of injuries. Guess what he's now in the top 6.

 

[PM]

There are a lot of examples out there of players going straight from the CHL to the AHL and helping their team win the Calder Cup, while also furthering their own development.

I can't think of a single instance where a player's development was boosted by making them watch on the sidelines during important games. It's one of the few generally agreed upon things in sports, players get better by playing. Not by watching or... osmosis.

 

[van22]

You don't have to present anything to the other prospects. This is a development league for developing players. If they can't understand that then that is their problem. Guys like Shinkaruk and Gaunce are focussed on making the NHL first and foremost. Not to mention that inserting good young players like McCann and Hutton may actually benefit them in the end and I'm sure they (Shinkaruk, Gaunce) would have liked to be afforded the same chances if their birth years aligned to lend them that opportunity.

Not inserting prospects into the lineups because it may deject the other prospects is absolutely ridiculous and 29 other teams don't seem to have that problem. It may deject the AHL lifers who are being shoved out but those guys are not of long term value to the organization and that is just how life works. Lesser quality personnel are constantly being pushed out for higher quality personnel in every industry.

This is the play-offs and not the regular season... why do you bring up 29 teams? I really don't think that it's the same focus in the play-offs where I believe that Gaunce, Shinkaruk and others are more concerned about winning than development and would expect the organisation to support their play-off run and not consider it meaningless.

Also do you think they will just be handed a spot in the NHL - with the number of vets on the team and WD as coach? In juniors these prospects were so good that they were automatically in the lineup. So when do you start teaching them that it's tough to make it in the NHL and that they have to earn their spot and work hard to keep it?

There are a lot of examples out there of players going straight from the CHL to the AHL and helping their team win the Calder Cup, while also furthering their own development.

I can't think of a single instance where a player's development was boosted by making them watch on the sidelines during important games. It's one of the few generally agreed upon things in sports, players get better by playing. Not by watching or... osmosis.

You seem to be arguing two different issues. On one hand you say he is ready - and should be on the team and will be able to contribute. I have nothing to say on that. Clearly, Green and Benning disagree with your assessment on readiness but I can't judge so I am not going to comment.

But on the other hand you insist that it's not important if it costs the win. And here is where I disagree because it's not only about the development of McCann but also about all the other prospects whose objective as they are in the play-offs is to win this Calder Cup and I don't think this objective can just be disregarded.

 

[MS]

There are a lot of examples out there of players going straight from the CHL to the AHL and helping their team win the Calder Cup, while also furthering their own development.

I can't think of a single instance where a player's development was boosted by making them watch on the sidelines during important games. It's one of the few generally agreed upon things in sports, players get better by playing. Not by watching or... osmosis.

This is the thing.

History tells us that a high-performing #1 pick should be an UPGRADE on a fringe AHL player like Zalewski. It isn't just hurting McCann's development, it's likely hurting Utica's chances of winning in the short term.

 

[PM]

This is the thing.

History tells us that a high-performing #1 pick should be an UPGRADE on a fringe AHL player like Zalewski. It isn't just hurting McCann's development, it's likely hurting Utica's chances of winning in the short term.

Of course but when it comes to fancy things like stats and history the Canucks choose to forge their own path rather then go with the norm. It's similar to our drafting philosophy. Historical stats tell you that you will almost never get a NHL role player by drafting a CHL role player but we still adhere to that strategy regardless of the negative outcomes.

 

[Verviticus]

There are a lot of examples out there of players going straight from the CHL to the AHL and helping their team win the Calder Cup, while also furthering their own development.

I can't think of a single instance where a player's development was boosted by making them watch on the sidelines during important games. It's one of the few generally agreed upon things in sports, players get better by playing. Not by watching or... osmosis.

or any other skill

 

[Samzilla]

There are a lot of examples out there of players going straight from the CHL to the AHL and helping their team win the Calder Cup, while also furthering their own development.

I can't think of a single instance where a player's development was boosted by making them watch on the sidelines during important games. It's one of the few generally agreed upon things in sports, players get better by playing. Not by watching or... osmosis.

or any other skill

You could probably get really good at chirping.

We can have sbisa up our scrumwick %, and develop mccann into an elite chirper. That'll win us something.

 

[vanuck]

This is nonsense. Binghamton didn't create a losing atmosphere when they inserted Jared Cowen into the lineup in 2011 straight from juniors. They actually won the Calder Cup that year, something we haven't done yet, and he played a big part in it. Did the Flyers create a losing atmosphere with the Phantoms when they "gifted" roster spots to Carter and Richards? Oh wait, they won too, largely because of those two.

Is it really "gifting" a spot when you insert a clearly more skilled yet younger player over a less skilled but older player? Are we so special that we are the only NHL/AHL franchise that has to have our players earn spots in training camp in September and can't make mid year additions?

Syracuse, Grand Rapids, Binghamton, all AHL teams that have recently won the Calder Cup and have ZERO issues with "gifting" roster spots to highly skilled drafted talent as we are seeing right now with Larkin.

Until someone actually gives an example of where holding a young prospect back from the AHL has helped them I will consider these points nonsense. There are far more examples pointing against your opinion than examples for it. Please let me know if you have an example of this as I'm genuinely curious.

It seems like Utica is the only team that's in danger of all these negative consequences from inserting skilled young prospects into the lineup despite them not having "earned it", whatever that means. What about all the other AHL teams?

 

[Jyrki21]

What your going to create is a losing atmosphere, there is a lesson to be learned by winning. Again these guys need to beat out players in order to play. NO GIFTS. I don't care what round you were picked in you need to earn it. if the coaching staff feels someone would help I'm sure they would put them in.

How does a guy beat out teammates if never put in the lineup, though? It'd be one thing if there was steady rotation (which there should be anyway, but all sports coaches seem to struggle with this concept), but you can't really draw any conclusions about a guy who isn't playing.

At some point you do just throw in a new guy without him needing to prove X, Y and Z (be it prospect or acquisition); you can rely on his past performance as an indicator (otherwise everyone would start in the ECHL or even lower), it's not like they've plucked him off the street not knowing anything about him.

I acknowledge the threshold for doing this should be higher in the playoffs than in the regular season, but it is extremely telling that the Canucks are going totally in their own direction on this, when more successful organizations like the Red Wings have thrown their prospects into the fire. I do think this is on Benning, but I also tend to agree that the coaches may also be misjudging the talent levels of the guys waiting in the wings -- because, again, the problems they cite (conditioning or whatever) should be affecting all other late-coming prospects too, and yet somehow they don't that much.

 

[Tampacuseforever]

How does a guy beat out teammates if never put in the lineup, though? It'd be one thing if there was steady rotation (which there should be anyway, but all sports coaches seem to struggle with this concept), but you can't really draw any conclusions about a guy who isn't playing.

At some point you do just throw in a new guy without him needing to prove X, Y and Z (be it prospect or acquisition); you can rely on his past performance as an indicator (otherwise everyone would start in the ECHL or even lower), it's not like they've plucked him off the street not knowing anything about him.

I acknowledge the threshold for doing this should be higher in the playoffs than in the regular season, but it is extremely telling that the Canucks are going totally in their own direction on this, when more successful organizations like the Red Wings have thrown their prospects into the fire. I do think this is on Benning, but I also tend to agree that the coaches may also be misjudging the talent levels of the guys waiting in the wings -- because, again, the problems they cite (conditioning or whatever) should be affecting all other late-coming prospects too, and yet somehow they don't that much.

I hate to put a damper on all the excitement for our new toys but isn't it possible that the Canucks prospects aren't ready ? Dylan Larkin is wayyyyyyy ahead of the curve in development compared to our guys. Ben Hutton was IMO very underwhelming in his stint, Shinkaruk has had troubles all year, and Gaunce after struggling some this year has just come into his own. Despite all the excitement over ANYTHING that Virtanen has done he is not even close to having the impact Larkin is. I think where I differ on this discussion is my trust in management's reasoning for holding back our prospects. They for whatever reason don't think they are ready, and from what I have seen the are correct. Just like rushing players to the NHL can damage a prospect, throwing guys into positions to fail in the AHL can hurt the development of a prospect. I fail to see how holding back a teenager until he is ready is detrimental to there development ? I don't seeing this as being an argument over playing vets over prospects, I feel when management feels the prospect is ready the vet will no longer be playing. If we didn't play our vets over our "unprepared" prospects we wouldn't be playing right now and I don't see how that we help the development of Shinkaruk, Gaunce, Corrado, ect, ect.

 

[arsmaster*]

I hate to put a damper on all the excitement for our new toys but isn't it possible that the Canucks prospects aren't ready ? Dylan Larkin is wayyyyyyy ahead of the curve in development compared to our guys. Ben Hutton was IMO very underwhelming in his stint, Shinkaruk has had troubles all year, and Gaunce after struggling some this year has just come into his own. Despite all the excitement over ANYTHING that Virtanen has done he is not even close to having the impact Larkin is. I think where I differ on this discussion is my trust in management's reasoning for holding back our prospects. They for whatever reason don't think they are ready, and from what I have seen the are correct. Just like rushing players to the NHL can damage a prospect, throwing guys into positions to fail in the AHL can hurt the development of a prospect. I fail to see how holding back a teenager until he is ready is detrimental to there development ? I don't seeing this as being an argument over playing vets over prospects, I feel when management feels the prospect is ready the vet will no longer be playing. If we didn't play our vets over our "unprepared" prospects we wouldn't be playing right now and I don't see how that we help the development of Shinkaruk, Gaunce, Corrado, ect, ect.

How can you know this?

McCann hasn't been given a chance to play to prove otherwise. Virtanen has already been good enough to move to the top 6, despite only getting his opportunity through injury.

Larkin's shots have gone in the net, Virtanen is getting a number of similar chances, just hasn't cashed.

You can fluff it up anyway you like, and I agree that Larkin is a better prospect than McCann, but by how much? I don't think it can be all that specific, and just like Larkin has moved right onto the PP, it'd be nice to see what McCann's shot looks like on the PP, considering by just about every prospect follower out there, McCann would easily have the edge in shot, between he and Larkin.

 

[Tampacuseforever]

How can you know this?

McCann hasn't been given a chance to play to prove otherwise. Virtanen has already been good enough to move to the top 6, despite only getting his opportunity through injury.

Larkin's shots have gone in the net, Virtanen is getting a number of similar chances, just hasn't cashed.

You can fluff it up anyway you like, and I agree that Larkin is a better prospect than McCann, but by how much? I don't think it can be all that specific, and just like Larkin has moved right onto the PP, it'd be nice to see what McCann's shot looks like on the PP, considering by just about every prospect follower out there, McCann would easily have the edge in shot, between he and Larkin.

If you read fully what I'm saying you know that "I don't know this" I am trusting our management team. I am NOT SAYING Larkin is a better propspect than McCann. What I am saying is he is well ahead of Virtanen in his development curve, if you think it's a matter of Larkin's shots just going in when Virtanen "just hasn't cashed in" then I can't believe your watching the same games that I am. Should McCann be playing ? I would have no problem with him playing, as a matter of fact I would like to see it. That said I fully understand what management is doing and see nothing wrong with it.

 

[MS]

If you read fully what I'm saying you know that "I don't know this" I am trusting our management team. I am NOT SAYING Larkin is a better propspect than McCann. What I am saying is he is well ahead of Virtanen in his development curve, if you think it's a matter of Larkin's shots just going in when Virtanen "just hasn't cashed in" then I can't believe your watching the same games that I am. Should McCann be playing ? I would have no problem with him playing, as a matter of fact I would like to see it. That said I fully understand what management is doing and see nothing wrong with it.

If every other #1 pick is good enough to join his team and play straight away but McCann isn't better than Mike Zalewski, we made a terrible pick.

 

[arsmaster*]

If you read fully what I'm saying you know that "I don't know this" I am trusting our management team. I am NOT SAYING Larkin is a better propspect than McCann. What I am saying is he is well ahead of Virtanen in his development curve, if you think it's a matter of Larkin's shots just going in when Virtanen "just hasn't cashed in" then I can't believe your watching the same games that I am. Should McCann be playing ? I would have no problem with him playing, as a matter of fact I would like to see it. That said I fully understand what management is doing and see nothing wrong with it.

Well Larkin plays C.

C's are always going to have a more visible impact, considering they play a more important position.

If Virtanen had cashed on his numerous high end chances, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Too many people are focused on the production, not the chances. If he wasn't getting chances I'd be worried, he is, production should follow.

 

[Jay Cee]

Canner, Can man, J-Mac

Seriously, not everyone needs a nickname lol.

Yes they do! I was thinking Canny but it just doesn't have a ring to it.

I think j mac is not bad.

 

[Tampacuseforever]

Well Larkin plays C.

C's are always going to have a more visible impact, considering they play a more important position.

If Virtanen had cashed on his numerous high end chances, we wouldn't be having this conversation. Too many people are focused on the production, not the chances. If he wasn't getting chances I'd be worried, he is, production should follow.

Agree to disagree Larkin >>>> than Virtanen. (At this point in series, not stating he will be the better player though). I am not worried about Vitanen in the least Larkin is just ahead of him in the curve. Remember Conacher was ahead of Tyler Johnson at one point too !!!!!

 

[carolinacanuck]

hutton and mccann sent home from utica to start their summer training.

discuss.

 

[Domecile]

hutton and mccann sent home from utica to start their summer training.

discuss.

Good. Hopefully will mean the end of people asking why they're not in over "X" after every loss.