The Virtues of Development vs. Winning in the AHL (Read OP)

[Verviticus]

you can't ask vague questions that lead like that. nobody wants to miss but I don't give a **** over 4 points

 

[Bad Goalie]

Bad goalie: you expect mccann's game shape to carry over 16 months?

Simply put getting into "game shape" before the offseason sounds pretty silly IMO. Same reason Hutton is no longer there. You can get in shape anywhere.

"you expect mccann's game shape to carry over 16 months?"

Don't be ridiculous. You know I mean now. Hopefully there is still one more series to be played. Virtanen was gassed after 20-25 seconds when he first went out on the ice in a game. Their shifts are slated to go 40-45. He was coming off after half a shift. McCann can be ready for that. Never know when he could get the call.

I said it when Hutton was here that he was the 10th D-man. It was a mutual decision between himself, Green, and Benning to return to Vancouver and get on a program for training camp.

McCann is the only other guy in house who is a prospect not playing.
LaBate is not better than any other forward (that is the bone of contention isn't it?) and will be assigned to Utica in the Fall. His development will begin at square one. You weren't looking for him in Vancouver were you? McCann will likely be in Jrs for another year unless Benning trades the house. Look to see him here next season before the season ends and playoffs begin. He will go into the lineup when he gets here.

This is not my philosophy. I'm just laying it out there as it is what it is.

 

[Lindgren]

you can't ask vague questions that lead like that. nobody wants to miss but I don't give a **** over 4 points

I think it's a worthwhile question. While your answer isn't trying very hard to be informative, it does suggest that you do see a balance of considerations.

One or two have given me the impression that they don't see any grey areas: the AHL is a developmental league, nothing but a developmental league, and all that matters is playing the prospects, with winning deserving no weight at all. If a prospect sits and a vet plays, that's a mistake, no consideration of factors such as the coach's evaluation of the prospect's preparedness needed.

 

[Verviticus]

I think it's a worthwhile question. While your answer isn't trying very hard to be informative, it does suggest that you do see a balance of considerations.

One or two have given me the impression that they don't see any grey areas: the AHL is a developmental league, nothing but a developmental league, and all that matters is playing the prospects, with winning deserving no weight at all. If a prospect sits and a vet plays, that's a mistake, no consideration of factors such as the coach's evaluation of the prospect's preparedness needed.

so there are some technical differences here

the only thing that matters is that the prospects develop as well as possible - not that they play. if we had a special time chamber that could only be used during a game that was 10 times as effective as playing a game for development, optimally we'd play zero games. so you have to identify the best single route to get the best player development

it so happens that playing hockey games is the best accepted way to develop and thus prospects need to be given as much time as possible.

making the playoffs simply adds more games, more club time, more practice time

if a prospect sits and a vet plays and because of this, the club gets 4-7 more games wherein the prospect gets to play hockey, it was the right choice. its difficult to make that decision in retrospect, let alone before the game's played - so the safe decision is to get them into as many games as possible

 

[Lindgren]

so there are some technical differences here

the only thing that matters is that the prospects develop as well as possible - not that they play. if we had a special time chamber that could only be used during a game that was 10 times as effective as playing a game for development, optimally we'd play zero games. so you have to identify the best single route to get the best player development

it so happens that playing hockey games is the best accepted way to develop and thus prospects need to be given as much time as possible.

making the playoffs simply adds more games, more club time, more practice time

if a prospect sits and a vet plays and because of this, the club gets 4-7 more games wherein the prospect gets to play hockey, it was the right choice. its difficult to make that decision in retrospect, let alone before the game's played - so the safe decision is to get them into as many games as possible

We probably differ as to how safe this decision is. If Green holds a prospect out in favour of a vet, I don't know his reasoning (and I haven't seen the practices), so I'm not confident enough to say he's making a mistake and that the prospect should be in. He could be making a mistake (I'm not one of those who says the coach can't be criticized), but I'm surprised by the certainty with which some say he's wrong.

 

[WTG]

Hutton was shipped over early to get playing time with the club before the playoffs. So he'll be ready for the playoffs. Instead Green didn't want to risk losing the division title so he didn't play Hutton.

Wrong decision IMO.

 

[Wilch]

Hutton was shipped over early to get playing time with the club before the playoffs. So he'll be ready for the playoffs. Instead Green didn't want to risk losing the division title so he didn't play Hutton.

Wrong decision IMO.

The blame is mostly on Vancouver's management.

They chose to push Green into icing Negrin, while doing little to influence Green's decision to insert Hutton or McCann.

 

[me2]

Hutton was shipped over early to get playing time with the club before the playoffs. So he'll be ready for the playoffs. Instead Green didn't want to risk losing the division title so he didn't play Hutton.

Wrong decision IMO.

Hutton did not even last that long, they seemed positive even if he wasn't playing but they also also moved him out for fitness training. They would not have sent him to Vancouver for his training if they didn't have high hopes, so clearly they are not rejecting the Hutton, rather prioritising what he needs, ie improved fitness > a handful of AHL games. If his fitness was not up to AHL level now, it may have been holding him back, so that it was made his priority coming into next season. Seems like the right reasons and logic are being followed.

 

[WTG]

Hutton did not even last that long, they seemed positive even if he wasn't playing but they also also moved him out for fitness training. They would not have sent him to Vancouver for his training if they didn't have high hopes, so clearly they are not rejecting the Hutton, rather prioritising what he needs, ie improved fitness > a handful of AHL games. If his fitness was not up to AHL level now, it may have been holding him back, so that it was made his priority coming into next season. Seems like the right reasons and logic are being followed.

IMO

2 weeks of AHL games >>> 2 weeks of improving fitness.

Hutton has all summer to get in better shape. Plus he was a #1 defenseman in the NCAA saying that he can't handle being a 6th defenseman in the AHL is kind of reaching.

 

[vanuck]

As a Comets STH, I was more concerned about the Comets winning their division / conference than watching Hutton get to develop for 4-5 games.

Negrin actually gave the Comets a better chance to win at that stage of the game.

There is a reason the CANUCKS sent Hutton home for the playoffs.

You should really watch the games.

Negrin is ECHL garbage who's only signed with the organization because his dad works for Francesco Aquilini, the guy who pays all the bills. He should not be anywhere near an AHL team and the fact that he played those 4-5 games over Hutton who's probably our top defensive prospect is a farce.

If a 3rd-pairing D was the crucial difference between the Comets winning those 4-5 games to clinch the division then frankly they're not as good as we think they are.

 

[me2]

IMO

2 weeks of AHL games >>> 2 weeks of improving fitness.

Hutton has all summer to get in better shape. Plus he was a #1 defenseman in the NCAA saying that he can't handle being a 6th defenseman in the AHL is kind of reaching.

How is reaching when it seems to be what happened.

 

[WTG]

How is reaching when it seems to be what happened.

I guess it wouldn't be reaching.

Personally, I think that Hutton is perfectly capable of handling a AHL shift. Larkin is managing just fine in the AHL. Why shouldn't Hutton?

 

[Tampacuseforever]

I guess it wouldn't be reaching.

Personally, I think that Hutton is perfectly capable of handling a AHL shift. Larkin is managing just fine in the AHL. Why shouldn't Hutton?

Because Larkin is a far better player ?

 

[arsmaster*]

Because Larkin is a far better player ?

Larkin when 9 selections ahead of Jared McCann. Both are prospects with similar body types and skill sets.

Larkin is more of a pace pusher and McCann more of a "lay in the weeds type", but I don't believe there is a significant difference between the two.

One guy is just getting an opportunity to play, the other isn't.

Yes BG: my bout of contention is with McCann not playing, just as it was with Virtanen before injury forced Green's hand.

----

But again, my big issue is how the kids are handled next season. If the Canucks continue to hand contracts to Ehrhardt'd and Negrin's, and play them ahead of their prospects I'll be frustrated.

 

[Tampacuseforever]

Larkin when 9 selections ahead of Jared McCann. Both are prospects with similar body types and skill sets.

Larkin is more of a pace pusher and McCann more of a "lay in the weeds type", but I don't believe there is a significant difference between the two.

One guy is just getting an opportunity to play, the other isn't.

Yes BG: my bout of contention is with McCann not playing, just as it was with Virtanen before injury forced Green's hand.

----

But again, my big issue is how the kids are handled next season. If the Canucks continue to hand contracts to Ehrhardt'd and Negrin's, and play them ahead of their prospects I'll be frustrated.

While I understand the argument I don't understand the comparison between Larkin and McCann. Larkin maybe well ahead of McCann presently ?? If the team feels McCann is not ready then I assume he is not ready. Do people actually think not playing him right now is somehow hurting his development ? We have Shink, Gaunce, Baertchi, Clendenning, Corrado, Markstrom all benefitting from this run it's not as if it is just full of veterans !!! "Shiny new toy syndrome" and a lot of people can't wait to get them out of the box.

 

[arsmaster*]

While I understand the argument I don't understand the comparison between Larkin and McCann. Larkin maybe well ahead of McCann presently ?? If the team feels McCann is not ready then I assume he is not ready. Do people actually think not playing him right now is somehow hurting his development ? We have Shink, Gaunce, Baertchi, Clendenning, Corrado, Markstrom all benefitting from this run it's not as if it is just full of veterans !!! "Shiny new toy syndrome" and a lot of people can't wait to get them out of the box.

Grand Rapids put their kids in right away. That's the argument. If McCann was a Detroit prospect he'd be playing.

 

[MS]

Grand Rapids put their kids in right away. That's the argument. If McCann was a Detroit prospect he'd be playing.

If he was ANY of the other 29 NHL team's prospects, he'd have been playing.

What we're doing is pretty much unprecedented. When a #1 pick is eliminated from his junior playoffs, he plays in the AHL if he can. Always. That's the entire point of having a farm team.

What's happening right now is worse than anything we saw when we were with Chicago.

And I don't blame Green. This is a coach where the NHL management should be controlling their employee properly.

 

[arsmaster*]

If he was ANY of the other 29 NHL team's prospects, he'd have been playing.

What we're doing is pretty much unprecedented. When a #1 pick is eliminated from his junior playoffs, he plays in the AHL if he can. Always. That's the entire point of having a farm team.

What's happening right now is worse than anything we saw when we were with Chicago.

And I don't blame Green. This is a coach where the NHL management should be controlling their employee properly.

Chicago immediately put Nicklas Jensen into their lineup IIRC.

 

[MS]

Chicago immediately put Nicklas Jensen into their lineup IIRC.

And Corrado. And Blomstrand at the end of his Swedish season. And Kellan Lain when signed out of college. And even 7th rounder Taylor Matson on a PTO played every playoff game straight out of college.

 

[Jyrki21]

And Corrado. And Blomstrand at the end of his Swedish season. And Kellan Lain when signed out of college. And even 7th rounder Taylor Matson on a PTO played every playoff game straight out of college.

Part of that is that the Wolves had a weaker roster all around, didn't they?

But yes, I agree, any time the Canucks do something differently from everyone else it makes me very, very nervous.

And the Comet posters should really understand that -- the criticism isn't directed at the Utica organization; it's directly squarely at Canuck management that has made a lot of seemingly awful decisions lately.

 

[MS]

Part of that is that the Wolves had a weaker roster all around, didn't they?

But yes, I agree, any time the Canucks do something differently from everyone else it makes me very, very nervous.

And the Comet posters should really understand that -- the criticism isn't directed at the Utica organization; it's directly squarely at Canuck management that has made a lot of seemingly awful decisions lately.

But the narrative at the time was that Canuck prospects weren't getting to play because Chicago had lots of vets and they were being played instead.

When you actually look at the rosters, that wasn't happening at all.

Basically I think it was mainly just an excuse from in-denial posters here for Schroeder's disappointing production.

 

[arsmaster*]

But the narrative at the time was that Canuck prospects weren't getting to play because Chicago had lots of vets and they were being played instead.

When you actually look at the rosters, that wasn't happening at all.

Basically I think it was mainly just an excuse from in-denial posters here for Schroeder's disappointing production.

Nah, it was the fact that under MacT the season prior Schroeder had made strides and was being used on the PK, then the following season he was being blocked by Andrew Ebbett.

 

[Jay Cee]

I see both sides of the argument, but I don't believe it necessarily means that much of an impact. I suspect without perhaps not knowing as much as I should about Utica that Green is more of an AV type of coach. He has a way to play that he sees as the "right way" and has a hard time assimilating new additions in a short period of time.

 

[PM]

Yeah I was on of those who were peeved at the Wolves for not giving our top prospects (Jensen, Schroeder) the best ice time in favour of guys like Haydar and Ebbett. Looking back, at least Jensen and Schroeder got to play at all instead of being scratched for role players.

I never would have imagined our current AHL farm team not dressing a recent 1st rounder who happens to be one of the best CHL players and a Hobey Baker finalist in favour of keeping AHL lifers in the lineup. Good organizations make room for these kinds of high calibre prospects. Guys like Zalewski, Negrin, Earhardt and yes even role players like Hamilton and Bancks are all expendable and I doubt half of them are even signed for us next season.

Hell, I'm pretty sure both Andersson and Conacher are already signed to play in Europe next year (see below for Conch), what do we get out of playing them now? Winning the Calder Cup is nice and all and would be great for the fans of Utica but for a NHL organization that still hasn't won a cup in over forty years I would put the development of our prospects ahead of hanging a banner at the Aud.

Developing guys like McCann and Hutton is more important to the Canucks franchise than winning a Calder Cup in my opinion and really a good organization should be able to accomplish both. The Sens played their young prospects during their Calder Cup win (pretty sure Cowen went straight from the CHL to the AHL and was one of their best players), Grand Rapids has shown no issue with throwing prospects to the Wolves and they have won recently and likewise with Syracuse who has produced some of the best young NHLers in the past few years. What the Canucks are doing right now is going against the grain, and if there is one thing that being a fan of the Canucks has taught me is that when we go against the grain and try to look smarter than everyone else we fall on our face and achieve the opposite.


Rumour from a Swiss Newspaper: http://www.swisshabs.ch/cory-conacher-serait-le-nouvel-etranger-du-cp-berne/

"According to information from the NZZ (Swiss Newspaper), Cory Conacher had signed for SC Bern to revive his career with an exit clause to the NHL . The winger 25 years had joined the Vancouver Canucks during the season from the Islanders , but has worn the colors of the farm club of Utica Comets . This transfer is the work of Guy Boucher who knows the player, the coach Oberland confirming in passing his contacts with NHL teams looking for a coach but did not give more details about his near future."

 

[WTG]

McCann had a better draft +1 season than Horvat

McCann 0.60GPG 1.45PPG
Horvat 0.56GPG 1.37PPG

McCann also had a equally good season as Bertuzzi who right now is ripping it up.