The truth about this team

[Kriss E]

Because PK was playing with Markov. Therrien decided to split them at around that 20-25 games mark. There was no system change last year. Subban and Markov were the system and numbers dropped when they got split. The numbers didn't lie, that pair was the SOLE reason of our offensive success up to the point they were separated.

People won't admit it but Markov had a lot to do with PK winning the Norris 2 years ago.

PK wasn't with Markov when he won the Norris. He played 13% of this time that year with Markov. The rest was mostly split between Gorges and Bouillon. 13%, with PK's ice time, represents 5-6 games.

He's 100% right imo.

He's only right in the sense that coaches often get blamed, which is pretty darn normal. That being said, in no way does this mean it's never the coach's fault.

Shouldn't that tell you something? The players are infinitely more important than the coach. Tourist is right here imo. As soon as an elite player was added the numbers improved, the system remained the same.

Of course the players are more important. Nobody ever argued against that. What does it have to do with the coach's performance however?
Are you suggesting that all coaches are equal and they're only as good as their players? Come on man.
And yes, if all remains equal, you add a 40g scorer you're likely to improve. I fail to see how this has any relevance in judging a coach's performance. You're essentially saying if you have a better team you're going to get better result. Nothing revolutionary here.
If I recall correctly, most our numbers didn't improve all that much. We still finished around the bottom of the league in possession numbers. We were still getting outshot and outchanced regularly. What changed was our ES scoring, but the rest remained about the same. So no, it's not quite true, the numbers didn't really improve.

 

[Kriss E]

As habsfanatics said, if the addition of Vanek was the crucial ingredient for our possession game, then it's more about the players' ability to execute the system and and less about the system itself. Same system, same coach, and suddenly our 5-on-5 spikes when Vanek shows up -- that's good evidence that the team isn't held hostage by Therrien's system.

Our 5 on 5 did not spike with the addition of Vanek. What improved was our scoring, which is pretty darn normal. Add a goal scorer, you're likely going to score more especially if you didn't get rid of a roster player yourself.
As for the rest though, no, we were still getting outshot and outchanced. Our possession numbers were still among the worst in the NHL.
So, ya, same coach, same poor system, same poor possession numbers.

 

[BLONG7]

Is there a Vanek type of player out there this year to acquire??

 

[Kriss E]

Yes I know coaches get fired for various reasons. It goes without saying. I never claimed to be evaluating anything either. It's the opposite. I don't believe I have enough data to fully evaluate the coach. I said that in my first post. I have no idea what he tells his players, what Bergevin tells him, how he runs his practices, how he motivates the players, how he handles meetings with his assistants, how receptive he his to his players, how he mentors them and treats them on a personal level etc. That's most of the coach's job right there. Sometimes players have nagging injuries or misbehave off the ice etc. There's tonnes of info I don't have that does impact his in game decisions. Bergevin knows all this, and I trust that he will evaluate Therrien accordingly. I don't have much of a choice lol. But all that doesn't mean we can't criticize or voice our displeasure regarding the staff's decisions. Discussion is half the fun as a fan and I love reading all the varying well thought out opinions including yours.

Well I don't like this stance because it's highly contradictory. How can you criticize anything? After all, you're not there. You don't know why the player acted a certain way. You don't know what he was told. Why was Bourque crappy? Maybe his wife was screwing the mailman and it messed him up. We don't know right?
Come on.

We're talking about a dump and chase system. We have Therrien telling his boys on 24CH that they're not going to win being fancy, they're a grinding team. He's repeated it in the media as well. If Therrien was telling his guys to come support the D slowly for the transition game and move as a cohesive 5 man unit instead of these long stretch passes, well then he deserves some blame because it's his job to make sure the guys understand his system and execute it. But this has been going on for too long, so he deserves criticism.

There's no way around it. The team has not been playing well for more than a year. We've been getting by mostly due to our talent. Not the other way around.

In the end, we are not agreeing on this particular topic because we value the impact of coaching at this level differently. It's not an exact science. It's impossible to quantify precisely, that's why there are so many arguments on the topic. I think that at this level, the impact is present, but minimal. Coaching is so refined nowadays, and everyone has access to all these advanced stats. Tactics in hockey are limited compared to sports like football. I don't observe a great difference between tactics from one team to the other. I don't think there's a significant difference between the quality of our coaching staff, the one in St-Louis or the one in New York. When I say things like I've seen this movie before, I mean that so many times I've seen coaches, along with their system and all, been called good coaches one year, then brutal coaches another. Therrien himself was apparently good a couple of years ago. Why would he decide all of a sudden to implement a bad system? Is Hitchcock a good coach? Is Tortorella a good coach? Carlysle? Laviolette? Martin? Boucher? Julien? Are they all much better than Therrien? If Therrien is a brutal coach preventing our team from being dominant, then it means the majority of them are significantly better and would turn the team into an excellent puck possession one. All these coaches have had great looking teams and bad looking ones. When their teams are not performing people complain about the same things: bad line combos, too much dump and chase, not trusting the young players, relying on vets too much etc. I just think generally speaking they looked good when they had good lineups and struggled to get results when they had weaker lineups.

So you think Therrien=Hitchcock=Vigneault...interesting...Can't say I agree at all.
Just because strategies are a lot more important in football that it renders coaching obsolete in hockey. Come on buddy..

And again. You can be a good coach but have a bad year. Just like you can be a good player and have a bad year. So I don't see why you keep throwing out ''I heard this coach was good this year but then he sucked the next''.
Ya. It's very possible to be good one year and bad the other. You never had an inefficient day or week at work? Well in some fields it can happen for some to have a bad year right after a good one. That's precisely why I told you that you need to understand why that bad or good year happened. That's when you need to really analyze and pinpoint the ''what went wrong''.
Is it because half the roster is injured or is it because we can't seem to make a decent pass out of the zone? Is this happening because our Dmen our bad puck movers or because our strategies suck? Was it just over a small period of time or have we been playing like this for quite some time? etc.
You need to analyze.

Sometimes it is the coach's fault, sometimes it isn't. You need to figure out if it is.
Saying ''bah..It's a broken record so I'm not going to blame the coach'', doesn't get you anywhere.

All kinds of coaches have won the cup. Many ended up being referred to as bad coaches. From my point of view the quality of a coach is difficult to quantify, and doesn't vary that much between the 30 coaches out there. What is much less subjective though is that great lineups win cups. I don't think we currently have a great lineup, although some of our young players still have enough room to grow to turn it into a much better one. The focus should be on improving the lineup by fixing its glaring weaknesses. The system should look much better then.

You're right, it's tough to quantify. I tend to put a lot more importance on how often you possess the puck, how you outshot-outchance-outscore your opponents.
That along with observing progression on the ice from our players/youngsters.
And in order to say there isn't much of a difference between the 30 coaches in the NHL, you would need to know each of them pretty well. Considering you're arguing that you don't know enough about the coach of the team you support I find it pretty ironic (not to say contradictory) that you can then pass judgement on ALL 30 coaches claiming there all pretty equal.

 

[Nicko999]

So how come this year with PK and Markov we still suck as a possession team?

Except maybe the Vezina, no player wins a trophy purely on their own, it always requires support from other very talented teammates.

They did not start the year together. They were put together a few games ago and PK started playing better. Obviously, they aren't lighting it up like last year but still do a great job.

Subban's possession numbers were excellent without Markov before 2013. He's nowhere near what he was... And yes, there absolutely was a change in the system.

Markov and Subban accounted for close to 40% of the Habs offense (I will try and find the number) while the team was a middle of the pack in terms of goals scoring. Apart from those 2, no other D has the talent to do anything other than dump and chase. That's not a system problem, that's a lineup problem.

 

[Kriss E]

They did not start the year together. They were put together a few games ago and PK started playing better. Obviously, they aren't lighting it up like last year but still do a great job.

PK is on a career high scoring pace at ES. He gets a lot of unwarranted flack around here. He's had issues defensively, doesn't go for the big hit nearly as much and won't join the rush as much. That's something Therrien has wanted him to do from the start.

Markov and Subban accounted for close to 40% of the Habs offense (I will try and find the number) while the team was a middle of the pack in terms of goals scoring. Apart from those 2, no other D has the talent to do anything other than dump and chase. That's not a system problem, that's a lineup problem.

We were 4th for GF two years ago, with a worse roster.

 

[habsfanatics*]

PK wasn't with Markov when he won the Norris. He played 13% of this time that year with Markov. The rest was mostly split between Gorges and Bouillon. 13%, with PK's ice time, represents 5-6 games.


He's only right in the sense that coaches often get blamed, which is pretty darn normal. That being said, in no way does this mean it's never the coach's fault.


Of course the players are more important. Nobody ever argued against that. What does it have to do with the coach's performance however?
Are you suggesting that all coaches are equal and they're only as good as their players? Come on man.
And yes, if all remains equal, you add a 40g scorer you're likely to improve. I fail to see how this has any relevance in judging a coach's performance. You're essentially saying if you have a better team you're going to get better result. Nothing revolutionary here.
If I recall correctly, most our numbers didn't improve all that much. We still finished around the bottom of the league in possession numbers. We were still getting outshot and outchanced regularly. What changed was our ES scoring, but the rest remained about the same. So no, it's not quite true, the numbers didn't really improve.

I'm suggesting there is not much separation at all. Mike Babcock does nothing to improve this team imo. Fans always think they have the answers, more often than not they're completely full of ****.

You can continue this I know the system is **** mantra if you like, I don't take what you say here seriously at all. I've played hockey all my life, watched hockey all my life, the same as you. You trying to tell others in the same boat it's just their failed understanding of the system that is the problem like you're some kind of higher authority on the subject is laughable.

Do I think Therrien is a great coach, absolutely not, do I think having a great coach would drastically improve things, absolutely not.

Coaches from all teams eventually go from hero to zero and vice versa, the only thing determining this evaluation is the quality of the lineup.

Coaching doesn't win games, players do.

The players themselves have stated the preferred system of today is to carry the puck in the zone. Habs players have said this, you cling way too much to a few words spoken on 24/7. If you believe Therrien is telling the players to hand possession over to the opposing team on purpose then you're a fool, I'm sorry to say. This is a problem of execution and maybe a bit of coaching, but coaching is so low on the totem pole here.

Management, not just the coach have decided to ice the wrong players. MT isn't alone here. MB can send Allen/Weaver to the minors any time he wants. Instead of doing so, he is in lock step with Therrien sending better player off to the minors. It's management, not just the coach here.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Habs started the 2013/14 with a great 19-9-3 record.

Then, inevitably, they had their annual slump from mid-December to late January, going 8-11-2. They looked like crap, and it was a question of when, not if, Therrien would be fired.

They turned it around in the last 30 games, going 19-8-3. During that hot period they got Vanek, but Habs were already streaking -- 8-2-2 -- before he showed up.

As habsfanatics said, if the addition of Vanek was the crucial ingredient for our possession game, then it's more about the players' ability to execute the system and and less about the system itself. Same system, same coach, and suddenly our 5-on-5 spikes when Vanek shows up -- that's good evidence that the team isn't held hostage by Therrien's system.

Back in the present, the team is playing like poo, but to me it looks like poor chemistry and focus, combined with a defence made of spare parts. It's like Bergevin is conducting a mid-season tryout camp for his new collection of rookies, vets and depth guys. And then on top of the new players still struggling to find chemistry, half our core is cold. No system in the world can juice a team when big-minute guys like Plekanec, Subban, Markov, Emelin, DD, Parenteau are under-performing.

I'm not absolving Therrien, who I've dumped on for mis-using certain players, but the current lousy play is about more than a bad system. Issue #1 is bad defence -- our stars are slumping, our vets are unfocused, and our rookies are learning. We've got nobody in the back end generating a decent breakout. Too slow, too old. Issue #2 is finishing plays -- Our forwards create a decent amount of chances, but can't finish them. Not enough net presence, too much perimeter shooting, terrible communication. How often does a forward enter the o-zone with linemates in position?

I'm sick of watching dump-and-chase hockey when we have the talent and depth to dominate, but it all starts with a strong, fast defence, which has been MIA. Until our core dmen play up to their potential and the rookies are given the chance to join the core, the Habs are a fancy high-rise with a shaky foundation. Right now it's not about Therrien's system, it's about his and the assistant coaches' leadership in pulling the roster out of their collective funk. Sometimes that means doing more; sometimes it means doing less. Who the hell knows what's going on in the locker, but the Habs need leadership more than a system.

I'm sorry but when you look at the way we've had our lineups and the systems we've employed and the guys we've chosen in our roster... IT'S A COACHING PROBLEM. Period.

Weise and DD on the 1st line. Cube on the PP. Allen in the lineup. No kids developing on the blueline... It just doesn't make any sense. And nobody can explain what's happened to PK and how he suddenly forgot what it's like to rush up the ice with the puck. Any more of his "coaching" and PK's going to be a 2nd pairing blueliner.

I hope he's woken up and I hope the nonsense stops. But you can't possibly think that this team is 27th in shots because of its talent level. There's just no way that's possible.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Markov and Subban accounted for close to 40% of the Habs offense (I will try and find the number) while the team was a middle of the pack in terms of goals scoring. Apart from those 2, no other D has the talent to do anything other than dump and chase. That's not a system problem, that's a lineup problem.

It's NOT a lineup problem when you have Beaulieu ready to go and you CHOOSE to play two of the worst blueliners in the league and put one of them on the 2nd unit PP to boot.

NO WAY that's a ****ing lineup problem. That's a problem with the guy who's choosing what lineup to ice. How the **** are you going to get any offense out of your blueline when you CHOOSE to ice Douglas Murray and Francis Bouillion? How are you going to get offense when you put Bouillion on the PP? Nathan Beaulieu's numbers beat the ever living **** out of these guys... so why the **** didn't we dress him? It took three games into the Boston series before our coach pulled his head out of his ass enough to put him in over Murray. And if this wasn't bad enough we got to see Murray actually get PAIRED with Subban for stretches last year. That's just mindblowingly stupid coaching.

 

[Kriss E]

I'm suggesting there is not much separation at all. Mike Babcock does nothing to improve this team imo. Fans always think they have the answers, more often than not they're completely full of ****.

I don't know. Don't know enough about Babcock's ways to pass judgment on him.
But I have a feeling you're just waiting to go on a rant more than anything.

You can continue this I know the system is **** mantra if you like, I don't take what you say here seriously at all. I've played hockey all my life, watched hockey all my life, the same as you. You trying to tell others in the same boat it's just their failed understanding of the system that is the problem like you're some kind of higher authority on the subject is laughable.

Do I think Therrien is a great coach, absolutely not, do I think having a great coach would drastically improve things, absolutely not.

I guess I was right about the rant part.
Just to be clear. You agree that Therrien isn't great. So now it's more about me and how I'm telling others that he's really not great that you have an issue with. Cool story but I won't waste much time on it.

How would you know if a great coach would improve things or not? What do you base yourself on, I mean, actual things like player development, usage, deployment, strategies, etc, to base your opinion on?? To be clear saying ''coaches gets fired, ups and downs'' isn't an argument.
To add to that, we've also seen coaches get fired and their teams improve with another coach.

Coaches from all teams eventually go from hero to zero and vice versa, the only thing determining this evaluation is the quality of the lineup.

Coaching doesn't win games, players do.

Yes, which is a flawed way of operating. That's why you're here telling people coaching doesn't matter because no matter what, they'll get canned.
But that's not an analysis on how good a coach is.

Players win games. Definitely. And coaches coach those players. Evaluation how the people employed to coach those guys isn't limited to how often other coaches have gotten fired.

The players themselves have stated the preferred system of today is to carry the puck in the zone. Habs players have said this, you cling way too much to a few words spoken on 24/7. If you believe Therrien is telling the players to hand possession over to the opposing team on purpose then you're a fool, I'm sorry to say. This is a problem of execution and maybe a bit of coaching, but coaching is so low on the totem pole here.

Ya they can say whatever they want it doesn't mean it's translating to the ice.
It doesn't have to be that Therrien is telling them to dump the puck behind the Dman and be ''first on puck''. If his breakout strategies don't work, the players are going to dump it. Just like if you're being pressured in your zone, you're told since your peewee days to throw it off the boards, never the middle, right?
And if your team has issues executing for over a year, then you need some blame.
Unless you think the team just isn't good. But then we have the 12-13 season to go by and we know we can play a much better possession game. I mean, if that wasn't evident enough for you just by looking at the roster.

Management, not just the coach have decided to ice the wrong players. MT isn't alone here. MB can send Allen/Weaver to the minors any time he wants. Instead of doing so, he is in lock step with Therrien sending better player off to the minors. It's management, not just the coach here.

There's no way to know really. Maybe they are. Maybe not. I really doubt Bergevin signed Sekac only to see him scratched 6 games into the season despite looking pretty good out there, so we could put Moen or Bourque in.
Management and Coaching are not always on point. It's not because it's not made public that life is peachy and they're in lock step as you say.
It also doesn't mean that they're not. No way to know.
But Therrien has favored vets over youngsters. That's not new. Bergevin said in the off season that he didn't mind leaving spots for the kids and went as far as to suggest he'd even be fine taking a step back because of it (assuming they'd take two forward later).
So I think Bergevin wants to bring options to his coach. Then gives him the rope he needs. I doubt they agree on everything.

 

[Nicko999]

It's NOT a lineup problem when you have Beaulieu ready to go and you CHOOSE to play two of the worst blueliners in the league and put one of them on the 2nd unit PP to boot.

NO WAY that's a ****ing lineup problem. That's a problem with the guy who's choosing what lineup to ice. How the **** are you going to get any offense out of your blueline when you CHOOSE to ice Douglas Murray and Francis Bouillion? How are you going to get offense when you put Bouillion on the PP? Nathan Beaulieu's numbers beat the ever living **** out of these guys... so why the **** didn't we dress him? It took three games into the Boston series before our coach pulled his head out of his ass enough to put him in over Murray. And if this wasn't bad enough we got to see Murray actually get PAIRED with Subban for stretches last year. That's just mindblowingly stupid coaching.

Sure they do...

Nathan Beaulieu: 0 goals, 6 pts in 37 games
Douglas Murray: 64 pts in 518 games
Francis Bouillon: 149 pts in 776 games

Please tell me how Beaulieu's numbers beat the ever living **** out of the other 2?

Now, don't get me wrong, Murray and Bouillon were bad (especially Murray) but Beaulieu was not a better option than these guys defensively.

 

[bigtimehockeyfan999*]

https://twitter.com/MikeKellyNHL/status/542386608113074176/photo/1

is this right?

 

[Habsawce]

Is there a Vanek type of player out there this year to acquire??

I'm sure Vanek himself would be available

 

[Nicko999]

As for the system, like I told you Markov and Subban ARE the system.

This is quote from me on November 8, 2013, when "apparently" we had another system.

Don't worry... they have NOT cooled down. In fact, Andrei Markov and PK Subban are the team right now.

It's pretty sad... the last 7 Habs goals.

12:32 MTL PPG - Andrei Markov (2) Slapshot - ASST: P.K. Subban (13), Tomas Plekanec (6)

05:38 MTL Rene Bourque (5) Wrist shot - ASST: Andrei Markov (8), P.K. Subban (12)

14:49 MTL Michael Bournival (4) Slapshot - ASST: Brian Gionta (5)

03:38 MTL PPG - Brendan Gallagher (7) Wrist shot - ASST: P.K. Subban (11), Alex Galchenyuk (9)

06:10 MTL Brendan Gallagher (6) Deflected shot - ASST: Alex Galchenyuk (8), Andrei Markov (5)

07:12 MTL PPG - P.K. Subban (3) Slapshot - ASST: Andrei Markov (6)

10:13 MTL Brian Gionta (4) Tip-in - ASST: Andrei Markov (7), P.K. Subban (10)


6/7 of these are assisted (or scored) by Markov or Subban.

Then on November 21, 2013

Small bump but their numbers keep getting more ridiculous relative to the team's success.

They have been on the ice for 70% of all Habs goals this season (40/57).

After 25 games last year, Subban and Markov were #1, #2 in scoring... great system at work once again.

 

[Habs76]

Well...

Datsyuk > Pleks
Zetterberg >= Pacioretty
Franzen > Gallagher
Galchenyuk = Nyquist
Tatar > Desharnais
Sheahan = Eller
Abdelkader > PAP
Subban > Kronwall
Dekeyser = Markov

I would say Detroit has a better team as a whole...

More Like

Plekanec<Datsyuk
Pacioretty>Zetterberg
Gallagher<Franzen
Subban>Kronwall
Markov>Dekeyser
Galchenyuk>Nyquist
Parenteau<Abdelkader
Eller=Shaehan
Desharnais<Tatar

TIE GAME!
Also, you need to check the depth guys too

 

[Lshap]

I'm sorry but when you look at the way we've had our lineups and the systems we've employed and the guys we've chosen in our roster... IT'S A COACHING PROBLEM. Period.

Weise and DD on the 1st line. Cube on the PP. Allen in the lineup. No kids developing on the blueline... It just doesn't make any sense. And nobody can explain what's happened to PK and how he suddenly forgot what it's like to rush up the ice with the puck. Any more of his "coaching" and PK's going to be a 2nd pairing blueliner.

I hope he's woken up and I hope the nonsense stops. But you can't possibly think that this team is 27th in shots because of its talent level. There's just no way that's possible.

I've said it a hundred times -- Therrien needed to use Sekac more, Desharnais less, pace Markov, Weaver and Gonchar, and let Beaulieu and Tinordi develop in the NHL. I agree with you that personnel usage has been Therrien's biggest problem. Luckily, most of those roster shifts seem to be happening, so the guy is capable of getting it, albeit a little late.

It's the system that's the big question. Is it a bad system that's sabotaging the players, or bad play sabotaging the system? You're convinced it's Therrien; I'm saying the players aren't executing. Yeah, we have plenty of talent, but our talent is committing an insane amount of mental errors and are unwilling to battle for the puck. That's not the coach. Watch our forwards tonight -- see how often we have one forward entering the o-zone without his linemates in position. With no support and no idea where to pass, the puck is dumped in. Is that because everyone else has been instructed to hold back? Doubtful. More like the lines don't know where they are on the ice. Parenteau has been lost, Desharnais useless, which leaves Pacioretty stranded. Sekac/Eller was great until Eller went down. Galchenyuk has been overplaying the puck and missing shots. Plekanec doesn't have his jump.

And then on defence, Subban looks weaker and Emelin is screwing up every game.

The team is slumping -- it's a bad mindset, not a bad system. Sure, if the issue is mental letdown, it's the coach's job to get the team's head on straight. But there's only so much blame you can aim at the system he uses when the roster is sluggish.

The real question is what happens when the team gets hot again. I think we'll see a more aggressive system once the lines have had time to adjust and - hopefully - we have some youth and speed on defence. This friggin dump & chase is a symptom of a slumping team that's using too many old dmen. And yeah - I include parts of last year, when we had a defence with zero ability to clear the puck. But now, once we add Beaulieu, let the new lines play together, and let the key guys come out of their funk, I think we'll start seeing the difference in possession and scoring chances.

 

[Sorinth]

Habs started the 2013/14 with a great 19-9-3 record.

Then, inevitably, they had their annual slump from mid-December to late January, going 8-11-2. They looked like crap, and it was a question of when, not if, Therrien would be fired.

They turned it around in the last 30 games, going 19-8-3. During that hot period they got Vanek, but Habs were already streaking -- 8-2-2 -- before he showed up.

We weren't talking about record, we were talking about the team outplaying the opposition win or lose, ie possession stats. In terms of possession stats we were good for the first 20 games, then sucked until Vanek. So there was no rebound under Therrien where the team started to buy into what he was selling.

As habsfanatics said, if the addition of Vanek was the crucial ingredient for our possession game, then it's more about the players' ability to execute the system and and less about the system itself. Same system, same coach, and suddenly our 5-on-5 spikes when Vanek shows up -- that's good evidence that the team isn't held hostage by Therrien's system.

Nobody said talent isn't a difference maker, talent is always the most important aspect, that's not what this debate is about. It's about whether this team is talented and underperforming due to coaching.

Back in the present, the team is playing like poo, but to me it looks like poor chemistry and focus, combined with a defence made of spare parts. It's like Bergevin is conducting a mid-season tryout camp for his new collection of rookies, vets and depth guys. And then on top of the new players still struggling to find chemistry, half our core is cold. No system in the world can juice a team when big-minute guys like Plekanec, Subban, Markov, Emelin, DD, Parenteau are under-performing.

Before we were winning more than we should based on our level of play, now we are probably losing more than we should based on our level of play. There will always be fluctuations, what matters is that baseline level of play which is lower than it should be. It has nothing to do with some player getting cold.

I'm not absolving Therrien, who I've dumped on for mis-using certain players, but the current lousy play is about more than a bad system. Issue #1 is bad defence -- our stars are slumping, our vets are unfocused, and our rookies are learning. We've got nobody in the back end generating a decent breakout. Too slow, too old. Issue #2 is finishing plays -- Our forwards create a decent amount of chances, but can't finish them. Not enough net presence, too much perimeter shooting, terrible communication. How often does a forward enter the o-zone with linemates in position?

And the issue with the breakout is that they don't have proper gap control (Like Eller said). That's a system/coaching problem. Same thing with the zone entries, it's a lack of support which comes down to system/coaching.

I'm sick of watching dump-and-chase hockey when we have the talent and depth to dominate, but it all starts with a strong, fast defence, which has been MIA. Until our core dmen play up to their potential and the rookies are given the chance to join the core, the Habs are a fancy high-rise with a shaky foundation. Right now it's not about Therrien's system, it's about his and the assistant coaches' leadership in pulling the roster out of their collective funk. Sometimes that means doing more; sometimes it means doing less. Who the hell knows what's going on in the locker, but the Habs need leadership more than a system.

The OP of this thread is claiming the opposite, he's saying we don't have the talent to dominate. If as you say we do, then the problem is coaching, whether it's the wrong system, or simply not being able to get the players to play the system, it's still coaching.

 

[Raider917]

how much longer is therriens contract? is it 4 more years? if it is (and if he isnt getting fired) what is the point of keeping tinordi and beaulieu? therrien has made it obvious that he wont play young defenseman a lot.

trading them for some "help me now talent" is likely the best move for bergevin.


i cant see this as being a better alternative to firing therrien because he had top front end talent in pittsburgh and he didnt win.

 

[Lshap]

We weren't talking about record, we were talking about the team outplaying the opposition win or lose, ie possession stats. In terms of possession stats we were good for the first 20 games, then sucked until Vanek. So there was no rebound under Therrien where the team started to buy into what he was selling.

We were talking about possession, system and results. There's no logic in isolating one element from the others. Of course there was a rebound. A 19-8-3 finish with vastly-improved 5-on-5, followed by a great playoff run, is as much buy-in as can be reasonably expected of any team.

Nobody said talent isn't a difference maker, talent is always the most important aspect, that's not what this debate is about. It's about whether this team is talented and underperforming due to coaching.

Underperforming is obvious. But sorry man, the daily turnover by Markov, the lousy coverage and penalty by Emelin, the weak board battles -- that doesn't say 'bad coach' to me. As I've said, it's Therrien's job to motivate them out of this funk, but the actual on-ice miscues are on the players.

Before we were winning more than we should based on our level of play, now we are probably losing more than we should based on our level of play. There will always be fluctuations, what matters is that baseline level of play which is lower than it should be. It has nothing to do with some player getting cold.

Sure it has to do with the players being cold, just like our crazy winning streak had to do players being hot. Same system, different results. The only thing that changes is -- as you said -- the normal fluctuation of play.

And the issue with the breakout is that they don't have proper gap control (Like Eller said). That's a system/coaching problem. Same thing with the zone entries, it's a lack of support which comes down to system/coaching.

Part of it has to do with coaching, I agree. That gap control issue should've been corrected by the coaching staff.

The OP of this thread is claiming the opposite, he's saying we don't have the talent to dominate. If as you say we do, then the problem is coaching, whether it's the wrong system, or simply not being able to get the players to play the system, it's still coaching.

That's a pat answer that ignores the limits of what a coach can do. I'll keep repeating -- forward lines, the questionable use of players, lack of trust in rookies -- those are 100% coaching issues, 100% determined by the coach. But once we get into execution, it becomes a trade-off between the coach's influence and the player's focus. I'm not exonerating Therrien for the slump because, as I've said, he's responsible for motivating and correcting when the players stop executing. But making it all about the coach is a vast oversimplification.

 

[Kriss E]

As for the system, like I told you Markov and Subban ARE the system.

This is quote from me on November 8, 2013, when "apparently" we had another system.



Then on November 21, 2013



After 25 games last year, Subban and Markov were #1, #2 in scoring... great system at work once again.

You're really all over the place..not making much sense..

 

[Nicko999]

You're really all over the place..not making much sense..

You guys were talking about "the system" and how it changed last year. I am just trying to prove it's always been the same. When Markov-Subban were together people would see our goals and think we're playing aggressively but in fact, those 2 were on the ice for 70% of all our goals early in the season. Then they got split and people starting complaining about the system. Not Therrien fault, no other D can enter the zone properly or make a stretch pass. So the only option is to dump and chase.
You can blame Therrien for splitting them up (and I remember a lot of people were OK with them on 2 pairs) and I was one of the people wanting to keep them together but the "system" is not the problem.

 

[Habs100]

The reality about this team is that young guys like Beaulieu, Andrighetto, Bournival, and maybe Hudon and Tinordi bring more energy than some of our past their prime vets (Desharnais/Parenteau/Prust/the old dmen).

 

[Talks to Goalposts]

Habs started the 2013/14 with a great 19-9-3 record.

Then, inevitably, they had their annual slump from mid-December to late January, going 8-11-2. They looked like crap, and it was a question of when, not if, Therrien would be fired.

They turned it around in the last 30 games, going 19-8-3. During that hot period they got Vanek, but Habs were already streaking -- 8-2-2 -- before he showed up.

As habsfanatics said, if the addition of Vanek was the crucial ingredient for our possession game, then it's more about the players' ability to execute the system and and less about the system itself. Same system, same coach, and suddenly our 5-on-5 spikes when Vanek shows up -- that's good evidence that the team isn't held hostage by Therrien's system.

Back in the present, the team is playing like poo, but to me it looks like poor chemistry and focus, combined with a defence made of spare parts. It's like Bergevin is conducting a mid-season tryout camp for his new collection of rookies, vets and depth guys. And then on top of the new players still struggling to find chemistry, half our core is cold. No system in the world can juice a team when big-minute guys like Plekanec, Subban, Markov, Emelin, DD, Parenteau are under-performing.

I'm not absolving Therrien, who I've dumped on for mis-using certain players, but the current lousy play is about more than a bad system. Issue #1 is bad defence -- our stars are slumping, our vets are unfocused, and our rookies are learning. We've got nobody in the back end generating a decent breakout. Too slow, too old. Issue #2 is finishing plays -- Our forwards create a decent amount of chances, but can't finish them. Not enough net presence, too much perimeter shooting, terrible communication. How often does a forward enter the o-zone with linemates in position?

I'm sick of watching dump-and-chase hockey when we have the talent and depth to dominate, but it all starts with a strong, fast defence, which has been MIA. Until our core dmen play up to their potential and the rookies are given the chance to join the core, the Habs are a fancy high-rise with a shaky foundation. Right now it's not about Therrien's system, it's about his and the assistant coaches' leadership in pulling the roster out of their collective funk. Sometimes that means doing more; sometimes it means doing less. Who the hell knows what's going on in the locker, but the Habs need leadership more than a system.

The gapping flaw in your theory is that Vanek didn't help the puck possession system much at all. He was an awful puck possession player with Montreal, primarily because Desharnais and Vanek together were simply terrible at defense. That line had a party once they got to the offensive zone, but were pretty bad at getting the puck there.

The relatively bump Montreal saw in puck possession towards the end of the season was happening elsewhere in the lineup, principly stronger wingers made Plekanec and Eller's lines much stronger (Adding Gionta compensate for lugging around Bourque on the 3rd line, Plekanec got two competent offensive wingers with the Gally's) and Briere was much more useful as a limited minutes center than a top nine winger.

So it wasn't so much Vanek's talent that matter so much as adding a body to RW so centers other than Desharnais had guys to work with.

 

[Kriss E]

You guys were talking about "the system" and how it changed last year. I am just trying to prove it's always been the same. When Markov-Subban were together people would see our goals and think we're playing aggressively but in fact, those 2 were on the ice for 70% of all our goals early in the season. Then they got split and people starting complaining about the system. Not Therrien fault, no other D can enter the zone properly or make a stretch pass. So the only option is to dump and chase.
You can blame Therrien for splitting them up (and I remember a lot of people were OK with them on 2 pairs) and I was one of the people wanting to keep them together but the "system" is not the problem.

No man, you only showed that PK and Markov were producing. I already pointed out to you that PK is on a career high pace for ES scoring this year. Markov and PK also spent the majority of their time on different lines in 12-13 (PK spent 60% of his time away from Markov) and we had a great possession game.
Also, a system doesn't change from line to line. We didn't have better puck movers under Martin and we had better possession numbers and breakouts.

 

[Sorinth]

We were talking about possession, system and results. There's no logic in isolating one element from the others. Of course there was a rebound. A 19-8-3 finish with vastly-improved 5-on-5, followed by a great playoff run, is as much buy-in as can be reasonably expected of any team.

But our 5 on 5 play didn't improve until Vanek, yet the record you are posting pre-dates Vanek.

Our 5 on 5 play improved with Vanek, not before. Our record had started to improve before our 5 on 5 play which is just normal flucations.

So Therrien didn't turn the team around and then we got Vanek which is a big difference with what you are claiming.

Underperforming is obvious. But sorry man, the daily turnover by Markov, the lousy coverage and penalty by Emelin, the weak board battles -- that doesn't say 'bad coach' to me. As I've said, it's Therrien's job to motivate them out of this funk, but the actual on-ice miscues are on the players.

I find most of our turnovers are the result of not enough/proper support, which is something the coach has control over.

Same thing for coverage, we have a very unstructured defensive system where we "swarm" the puck. A different system with more structure and we'd likely get less turnovers.

Obviously the players bear some responsibility in these things as well, but the system used increases the frequency of these bad plays.

Sure it has to do with the players being cold, just like our crazy winning streak had to do players being hot. Same system, different results. The only thing that changes is -- as you said -- the normal fluctuation of play.

This season yes the only thing that has changed between when we were winning and losing is just normal flucations in play. Win or lose we generally got outplayed.

Compare that to 2012-2013, and the first 20 games of last season, and it's not at all the same. During that time we were consistently outplaying the opposing teams.

That's what I want us to go back to, not the begining of this year when we were wining, but that first year under Therrien when the system was different and we were playing much better.


Part of it has to do with coaching, I agree. That gap control issue should've been corrected by the coaching staff.

That's a pat answer that ignores the limits of what a coach can do. I'll keep repeating -- forward lines, the questionable use of players, lack of trust in rookies -- those are 100% coaching issues, 100% determined by the coach. But once we get into execution, it becomes a trade-off between the coach's influence and the player's focus. I'm not exonerating Therrien for the slump because, as I've said, he's responsible for motivating and correcting when the players stop executing. But making it all about the coach is a vast oversimplification.

Yes things like execution is part player, and if it was one or two players that were struggling with execution I wouldn't say anything. But virtually every player is struggling with focus/execution, that points to a coaching issue.

What's your solution to that issue, do nothing and wait for players to get hot? Why even have a coach if that's the strategy.