The truth about this team

[ECWHSWI]

I watch tons of hockey and frankly I don't see significant differences in systems. I can see significant differences in roster quality but I simply don't see any revolutionary systems out there. Or systems that stick out in a good or bad way. I acknowledge that some coaches employ styles that maybe better suited to be employed with certain lineups but generally the differences aren't that big. To me, tactics in hockey at this level simply aren't as influecial as tactics in football, for example.

Tortorella was once believed to be a very good coach. He even won the cup. Now he sucks. Desjardins is awesome. Boucher reinvented sliced bread a couple of years ago and convinced us it never existed. Now he sucks in Europ. Trotz was amazing for years in Nashville but frankly his system sucks now in Washington. We should have hired Roy. He did wonders with the Avalanche last season. Wait, he is destroying Mackinnon, he sucks. A young prodigy from the minors would be awesome, like Eakins. Naw he's ruining the development of his young players and sucks too. Julien, here's a good coach! Wait we had him and he sucked. Plus he chased Seguin out of B town with his stupid defense first system so yeah he definetely sucks.

See a pattern. I use to blame the coach. I'm just not buying it anymore. I couldn't care less about Therrien. He's not extraordinary enough in a good or bad way to make a significant difference.



We had a different lineup in 2012-2013. Even the players that are still here aren't in the same place in their development, for better or worse. What did we win that year anyway? I don't think Therrien all of a sudden started telling guys to dump the puck and stop being creative with it. Fans always think that, no matter who is the coach. It makes me smile. He probably tells them things like to not take risks if a play isn't there, which is what the vast majority of coaches say. In my humble opinion, at this level, the main reason a group of players doesn't execute as well as another group is simply because they aren't as good. In our case though, a lot of our key players are young. Some are on the verge of breaking out. I think this group has in them to take big steps on an individual level, regardless of the system. If that happens the players will be in turn more confident, the ball will roll, we'll look much better as a team and most importantly, the infamous system and line combos will be good again.

doesnt need to be signinficant to make an impact on the team, Vigneault changed the NYR system (they're no more blocking machines) and they made it to the SCF and are looking good - Tort in Vancouver on the other hand..., MT decided to change forwards used on the PP last season and our PP is sucking balls since, Washington has a lower GAA with Trotz - known as a "defensive coach". etc.

Most changes are minor... and that's usually the difference between an average team and a good/bad one. 2 or 3% better on the PP, 1 or 2% better on the PK, slightly better FO%, slightly better possession number... and the bubble team is now a solid PO team.

contrary to what you think players will not magically improve individually and as a team.

 

[Kriss E]

The lineups weren't equal. Players were not at the same place in their development. Where's Bylsma now anyway? We should hire him ASAP. But wait, based on the same Pen fans and media he's turned into a brutal coach too. Blame the coach. I've seen this movie so many times.

I've told you this before but it doesn't seem to get through to you. There are various reasons why coaches get fired. It's not because the coach gets fired that it was warranted. It's not always the coach's fault that you lose, and in similar fashion, it isn't always thanks to him when you win. If all you're going to do is say ''bahh..heard it before..it's all crap'' then fine, but you're not evaluating anything.

 

[Habs Icing]

Max is better than JVR.

What are you looking at? They have similar stats.

JVR 350games 105goals 108assists 213points .60ppg
playoffs 46 13 9 22

Patches 348games 119goals 114assists 233points .67ppg
playoffs 21 5 6 11

 

[Kriss E]

You're right about the talent being there. Yeah, the team has holes, but so does every other good team. Strategically, Therrien was pretty capable in the playoffs, so hopefully he'll adapt again when it counts. Right now I'm more worried about what assistant coach Daigneault is doing to fix the D and help Beaulieu when he's back.

One thing -- we were amazing in 2012/13, but part of the team's success is that other teams didn't know what to expect in Therrien's first season. We went from Martin's stifling defensive system to Therrien's speed and skate game, and it caught everyone napping. Unfortunately, other teams adapted, outmuscled our defence and hemmed us in, so by this time last year we were back to dump-and-chase. It's not that Therrien decided to change the system; it's that the opposition forced him to.

We didn't change all that much versus Ottawa. Our depth was key coming into the POs. Eller's line was providing much needed tertiary scoring. Gryba took care of that game 1. After that it really was the Anderson show.

 

[Rapala]

Coaches get fired when management decides the message is no longer getting through.

 

[Kriss E]

What are you looking at? They have similar stats.

JVR 350games 105goals 108assists 213points .60ppg
playoffs 46 13 9 22

Patches 348games 119goals 114assists 233points .67ppg
playoffs 21 5 6 11

Pacioretty scored 6 goals in his first 86 games over two years. JVR put up 15 as a rookie, 21 as a sophomore.
It's quite clear that one of those players was a much bigger slow starter than the other.
Remove those two bad seasons where Max was clearly not NHL ready, and the pace becomes pretty different. It actually goes up to .79 for Max.
He's also produced 60pts/+ twice, and three times if you include the shortened season, compared to one for JVR.
They are similar, but I put Max over him.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

You're right about the talent being there. Yeah, the team has holes, but so does every other good team. Strategically, Therrien was pretty capable in the playoffs, so hopefully he'll adapt again when it counts. Right now I'm more worried about what assistant coach Daigneault is doing to fix the D and help Beaulieu when he's back.

One thing -- we were amazing in 2012/13, but part of the team's success is that other teams didn't know what to expect in Therrien's first season. We went from Martin's stifling defensive system to Therrien's speed and skate game, and it caught everyone napping. Unfortunately, other teams adapted, outmuscled our defence and hemmed us in, so by this time last year we were back to dump-and-chase. It's not that Therrien decided to change the system; it's that the opposition forced him to.

I don't think that's true. Last year we were playing pretty well around game 20. PK Subban was looking like the best NHL blueliner in the league and the EGG line was still off and on... Somewhere around this point MT made a concious decision to change systems and it went to hell. The numbers dropped like a stone. Somebody posted a graph of it last season and it was night and day. Absolutely the system change screwed us.

For whatever reason MT seems to think grinding hockey is what wins games. That may be true for some clubs but we've got a very mobile group of blueliners. Yet we don't play to our strengths.

I'm sorry but I refuse to beleive that PK Subban just stopped wanting to make rushes up the neutral zone and into the offensive zone. Somebody has given him a directive and he's following it.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

What are you looking at? They have similar stats.

JVR 350games 105goals 108assists 213points .60ppg
playoffs 46 13 9 22

Patches 348games 119goals 114assists 233points .67ppg
playoffs 21 5 6 11

Same class of player but Max is better at this point.

 

[Sorinth]

Funny - one year ago I was saying the exact same thing: Fire Therrien because he's lost the room. But then the team turned it around. Not saying this year will be a carbon copy, but it's never wise to hire/fire based on a bad two weeks. If the team's still struggling in a month I'll reconsider.

When did he turn it around last year?

We only turned it around when we acquired Vanek. So sure if Bergevin can acquire another elite player then it will give Therrien a new lease, but that's not likely and is probably temporary.

It's not based on a bad two weeks, we've been a bad possession team since December of last year, apart from a couple months where we had Vanek.

 

[Nicko999]

I don't think that's true. Last year we were playing pretty well around game 20. PK Subban was looking like the best NHL blueliner in the league and the EGG line was still off and on... Somewhere around this point MT made a concious decision to change systems and it went to hell. The numbers dropped like a stone. Somebody posted a graph of it last season and it was night and day. Absolutely the system change screwed us.

For whatever reason MT seems to think grinding hockey is what wins games. That may be true for some clubs but we've got a very mobile group of blueliners. Yet we don't play to our strengths.

I'm sorry but I refuse to beleive that PK Subban just stopped wanting to make rushes up the neutral zone and into the offensive zone. Somebody has given him a directive and he's following it.

Because PK was playing with Markov. Therrien decided to split them at around that 20-25 games mark. There was no system change last year. Subban and Markov were the system and numbers dropped when they got split. The numbers didn't lie, that pair was the SOLE reason of our offensive success up to the point they were separated.

People won't admit it but Markov had a lot to do with PK winning the Norris 2 years ago.

 

[Sorinth]

Because PK was playing with Markov. Therrien decided to split them at around that 20-25 games mark. There was no system change last year. Subban and Markov were the system and numbers dropped when they got split. The numbers didn't lie, that pair was the SOLE reason of our offensive success up to the point they were separated.

People won't admit it but Markov had a lot to do with PK winning the Norris 2 years ago.

So how come this year with PK and Markov we still suck as a possession team?

Except maybe the Vezina, no player wins a trophy purely on their own, it always requires support from other very talented teammates.

 

[Penguinator]

@ agnostic for: "Pittsburgh got the lions share of luck off a lucky (or rigged) lottery draft to go with years of first overall picks, "

Lol! And the Habs didnt tank for galchy? Years of Pens tanking heh? ...more like 2 lucky rolls with Crosby and good scouting/luck with Malkin (Ovy was picked first). That's 2, make that 3 at best with... Fleury.

But hey blame yer problems on someone else hey mate, "rigged"... Worst comment ever.

As for the Habs, not a fan but i agree with the initial post, lack of talent on offense.

Old slow D doesnt help either.

 

[DAChampion]

@ agnostic for: "Pittsburgh got the lions share of luck off a lucky (or rigged) lottery draft to go with years of first overall picks, "

Lol! And the Habs didnt tank for galchy? Years of Pens tanking heh? ...more like 2 lucky rolls with Crosby and good scouting/luck with Malkin (Ovy was picked first). That's 2, make that 3 at best with... Fleury.

But hey blame yer problems on someone else hey mate, "rigged"... Worst comment ever.

As for the Habs, not a fan but i agree with the initial post, lack of talent on offense.

Old slow D doesnt help either.

Jordan Staal waa essential to the cup wins.

 

[habsfanatics*]

I watch tons of hockey and frankly I don't see significant differences in systems. I can see significant differences in roster quality but I simply don't see any revolutionary systems out there. Or systems that stick out in a good or bad way. I acknowledge that some coaches employ styles that maybe better suited to be employed with certain lineups but generally the differences aren't that big. To me, tactics in hockey at this level simply aren't as influecial as tactics in football, for example.

Tortorella was once believed to be a very good coach. He even won the cup. Now he sucks. Desjardins is awesome. Boucher reinvented sliced bread a couple of years ago and convinced us it never existed. Now he sucks in Europ. Trotz was amazing for years in Nashville but frankly his system sucks now in Washington. We should have hired Roy. He did wonders with the Avalanche last season. Wait, he is destroying Mackinnon, he sucks. A young prodigy from the minors would be awesome, like Eakins. Naw he's ruining the development of his young players and sucks too. Julien, here's a good coach! Wait we had him and he sucked. Plus he chased Seguin out of B town with his stupid defense first system so yeah he definetely sucks.

See a pattern. I use to blame the coach. I'm just not buying it anymore. I couldn't care less about Therrien. He's not extraordinary enough in a good or bad way to make a significant difference.



We had a different lineup in 2012-2013. Even the players that are still here aren't in the same place in their development, for better or worse. What did we win that year anyway? I don't think Therrien all of a sudden started telling guys to dump the puck and stop being creative with it. Fans always think that, no matter who is the coach. It makes me smile. He probably tells them things like to not take risks if a play isn't there, which is what the vast majority of coaches say. In my humble opinion, at this level, the main reason a group of players doesn't execute as well as another group is simply because they aren't as good. In our case though, a lot of our key players are young. Some are on the verge of breaking out. I think this group has in them to take big steps on an individual level, regardless of the system. If that happens the players will be in turn more confident, the ball will roll, we'll look much better as a team and most importantly, the infamous system and line combos will be good again.

Solid post and I mostly agree, although I do think the coach is a problem in the overall scheme of things, how much, it's probably exaggerated here big time, but my gut feeling is that he simply isn't good.

 

[habsfanatics*]

I've told you this before but it doesn't seem to get through to you. There are various reasons why coaches get fired. It's not because the coach gets fired that it was warranted. It's not always the coach's fault that you lose, and in similar fashion, it isn't always thanks to him when you win. If all you're going to do is say ''bahh..heard it before..it's all crap'' then fine, but you're not evaluating anything.

He's 100% right imo.

 

[habsfanatics*]

When did he turn it around last year?

We only turned it around when we acquired Vanek. So sure if Bergevin can acquire another elite player then it will give Therrien a new lease, but that's not likely and is probably temporary.

It's not based on a bad two weeks, we've been a bad possession team since December of last year, apart from a couple months where we had Vanek.

Shouldn't that tell you something? The players are infinitely more important than the coach. Tourist is right here imo. As soon as an elite player was added the numbers improved, the system remained the same.

 

[BLONG7]

How about some good news, sounds like the cap could go to 73M!!

 

[Estimated_Prophet]

I completely disagree, I think we have a great roster in terms of talent. We just play a system that completely stifles it and relies on shot blocking and excellent goaltending to win hockey games.

Our D-men are pretty mobile and can make some good outlet passes and could potentially be very dangerous joining the rush, but our forwards put them in no mans land by giving them no support. This is why a guy like Emelin looks far worse than he actually is on most nights.

Our forwards are quick and nifty and could excel in carrying the puck over the blueline, but I can count on one hand how many times I see that tried in the run of a game. Stretch pass, tip in, chase, fail, repeat. Relying on beating opposing D-men to the puck, fighting it out of the corners, and getting set up in the offensive zone in order to create offense. Those first two things are hard to do when you have Parenteau, Gallagher, Desharnais in those races/battles.

This team doesn't play to it's strength, doesn't control the puck for long periods of time using their speed and quick passes, and that's the issue.

During the lockout year, while we took a lot of penalties as a team, we also drew *i think, I can't find a source for this right now* one of the most penalties in the league as a team. That's because this team was offensively driven that season, little to no dump and chase, carrying the puck, it was great hockey to watch. The team was a little less defensively aware, but the games were always entertaining, unlike the games we see these days where the team seems happy to come out of the first only down by one despite registering 0 shots in the first 10 minutes.

I agree with much of what you are saying but this d-corps is far from mobile. It is easily the slowest in the league, especially without Beaulieu who is easily our fastest dman. Markov, Emelin, Weaver, Gonchar and Allen are all straight up slow and Subban is grossly overated by many fans as his speed is very close to average. Gilbert is a good skater but he sucks..........

This team's greatest need is a big, strong and mobile defender to play in the top 3. Tinordi is still a possibility for this role but I would like to acquire one via trade even if it meant giving up Beaulieu

 

[MSLs absurd thighs]

People don't want to admit this team is on the right path, but still has ways to go before being an elite one in terms of talent and consistency. We're a couple of prospects developing the right way away from being contenders. But now, we don't have the ingredients or the depth to be important contenders.

People can blame Therrien all they want, or Desharnais, or anyone really... I don't think it's possible to do much better with our current roster than what we've been doing in the last 3 seasons. Thinking otherwise is overrating this roster, which still has ways to go, and was even further a couple of seasons ago.

 

[smirob]

People don't want to admit this team is on the right path, but still has ways to go before being an elite one in terms of talent and consistency. We're a couple of prospects developing the right way away from being contenders. But now, we don't have the ingredients or the depth to be important contenders.

People can blame Therrien all they want, or Desharnais, or anyone really... I don't think it's possible to do much better with our current roster than what we've been doing in the last 3 seasons. Thinking otherwise is overrating this roster, which still has ways to go, and was even further a couple of seasons ago.

I agree Bergevin has to make some impact moves to contend this season. Defensively we have taken a step back imo. I would personally prefer the young guys get a chance if he's poising for next year.

The forward lines are finally close to what I was hoping to see. People blame Therrien and Desharnais mainly because of the lines and production from our 'top' centre. Which is fair.

 

[PricePkPatch*]

How about some good news, sounds like the cap could go to 73M!!

And we are one of the team who worked harder to clear it!!!

Btw, are some people still whining about the so-calles rigged Crosby lottery? Why look at the Pens's so-called secret for success. Instead, look at Chicago and Los Angeles!

 

[Lshap]

When did he turn it around last year?

We only turned it around when we acquired Vanek. So sure if Bergevin can acquire another elite player then it will give Therrien a new lease, but that's not likely and is probably temporary.

It's not based on a bad two weeks, we've been a bad possession team since December of last year, apart from a couple months where we had Vanek.

Habs started the 2013/14 with a great 19-9-3 record.

Then, inevitably, they had their annual slump from mid-December to late January, going 8-11-2. They looked like crap, and it was a question of when, not if, Therrien would be fired.

They turned it around in the last 30 games, going 19-8-3. During that hot period they got Vanek, but Habs were already streaking -- 8-2-2 -- before he showed up.

As habsfanatics said, if the addition of Vanek was the crucial ingredient for our possession game, then it's more about the players' ability to execute the system and and less about the system itself. Same system, same coach, and suddenly our 5-on-5 spikes when Vanek shows up -- that's good evidence that the team isn't held hostage by Therrien's system.

Back in the present, the team is playing like poo, but to me it looks like poor chemistry and focus, combined with a defence made of spare parts. It's like Bergevin is conducting a mid-season tryout camp for his new collection of rookies, vets and depth guys. And then on top of the new players still struggling to find chemistry, half our core is cold. No system in the world can juice a team when big-minute guys like Plekanec, Subban, Markov, Emelin, DD, Parenteau are under-performing.

I'm not absolving Therrien, who I've dumped on for mis-using certain players, but the current lousy play is about more than a bad system. Issue #1 is bad defence -- our stars are slumping, our vets are unfocused, and our rookies are learning. We've got nobody in the back end generating a decent breakout. Too slow, too old. Issue #2 is finishing plays -- Our forwards create a decent amount of chances, but can't finish them. Not enough net presence, too much perimeter shooting, terrible communication. How often does a forward enter the o-zone with linemates in position?

I'm sick of watching dump-and-chase hockey when we have the talent and depth to dominate, but it all starts with a strong, fast defence, which has been MIA. Until our core dmen play up to their potential and the rookies are given the chance to join the core, the Habs are a fancy high-rise with a shaky foundation. Right now it's not about Therrien's system, it's about his and the assistant coaches' leadership in pulling the roster out of their collective funk. Sometimes that means doing more; sometimes it means doing less. Who the hell knows what's going on in the locker, but the Habs need leadership more than a system.

 

[habsfanatics*]

Habs started the 2013/14 with a great 19-9-3 record.

Then, inevitably, they had their annual slump from mid-December to late January, going 8-11-2. They looked like crap, and it was a question of when, not if, Therrien would be fired.

They turned it around in the last 30 games, going 19-8-3. During that hot period they got Vanek, but Habs were already streaking -- 8-2-2 -- before he showed up.

As habsfanatics said, if the addition of Vanek was the crucial ingredient for our possession game, then it's more about the players' ability to execute the system and and less about the system itself. Same system, same coach, and suddenly our 5-on-5 spikes when Vanek shows up -- that's good evidence that the team isn't held hostage by Therrien's system.

Back in the present, the team is playing like poo, but to me it looks like poor chemistry and focus, combined with a defence made of spare parts. It's like Bergevin is conducting a mid-season tryout camp for his new collection of rookies, vets and depth guys. And then on top of the new players still struggling to find chemistry, half our core is cold. No system in the world can juice a team when big-minute guys like Plekanec, Subban, Markov, Emelin, DD, Parenteau are under-performing.

I'm not absolving Therrien, who I've dumped on for mis-using certain players, but the current lousy play is about more than a bad system. Issue #1 is bad defence -- our stars are slumping, our vets are unfocused, and our rookies are learning. We've got nobody in the back end generating a decent breakout. Too slow, too old. Issue #2 is finishing plays -- Our forwards create a decent amount of chances, but can't finish them. Not enough net presence, too much perimeter shooting, terrible communication. How often does a forward enter the o-zone with linemates in position?

I'm sick of watching dump-and-chase hockey when we have the talent and depth to dominate, but it all starts with a strong, fast defence, which has been MIA. Until our core dmen play up to their potential and the rookies are given the chance to join the core, the Habs are a fancy high-rise with a shaky foundation. Right now it's not about Therrien's system, it's about his and the assistant coaches' leadership in pulling the roster out of their collective funk. Sometimes that means doing more; sometimes it means doing less. Who the hell knows what's going on in the locker, but the Habs need leadership more than a system.

Agreed with all of this, a very well, thought-out post imo. If the spiral continues, we should be concerned. I thought for a few games the team looked to be turning the corner and then another stinker happens, I think we have had some unlucky bounces lately too. **** happens, no reason to panic yet.

If it continues, Pleks/PK/Markov or someone should have a players only meeting and try to identify the issue and how they can overcome it.

I liked the moves MB made on the surface, ie moving Bourque and Moen, but I was hoping these additions would be used for depth purposes only. Gonchar is showing he can't play a role with 20+ minutes a night, most already knew this, and Allen showed little to nothing, most already knew this, but I expected the GM/coach to give him a few games to see what they had. Hopefully Beauls and Tinner crack the lineup soon, rather than later, I already think they are better options than what we currently ice.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Because PK was playing with Markov. Therrien decided to split them at around that 20-25 games mark. There was no system change last year. Subban and Markov were the system and numbers dropped when they got split. The numbers didn't lie, that pair was the SOLE reason of our offensive success up to the point they were separated.

People won't admit it but Markov had a lot to do with PK winning the Norris 2 years ago.

Subban's possession numbers were excellent without Markov before 2013. He's nowhere near what he was... And yes, there absolutely was a change in the system.

 

[Tourist]

I've told you this before but it doesn't seem to get through to you. There are various reasons why coaches get fired. It's not because the coach gets fired that it was warranted. It's not always the coach's fault that you lose, and in similar fashion, it isn't always thanks to him when you win. If all you're going to do is say ''bahh..heard it before..it's all crap'' then fine, but you're not evaluating anything.

Yes I know coaches get fired for various reasons. It goes without saying. I never claimed to be evaluating anything either. It's the opposite. I don't believe I have enough data to fully evaluate the coach. I said that in my first post. I have no idea what he tells his players, what Bergevin tells him, how he runs his practices, how he motivates the players, how he handles meetings with his assistants, how receptive he his to his players, how he mentors them and treats them on a personal level etc. That's most of the coach's job right there. Sometimes players have nagging injuries or misbehave off the ice etc. There's tonnes of info I don't have that does impact his in game decisions. Bergevin knows all this, and I trust that he will evaluate Therrien accordingly. I don't have much of a choice lol. But all that doesn't mean we can't criticize or voice our displeasure regarding the staff's decisions. Discussion is half the fun as a fan and I love reading all the varying well thought out opinions including yours.

In the end, we are not agreeing on this particular topic because we value the impact of coaching at this level differently. It's not an exact science. It's impossible to quantify precisely, that's why there are so many arguments on the topic. I think that at this level, the impact is present, but minimal. Coaching is so refined nowadays, and everyone has access to all these advanced stats. Tactics in hockey are limited compared to sports like football. I don't observe a great difference between tactics from one team to the other. I don't think there's a significant difference between the quality of our coaching staff, the one in St-Louis or the one in New York. When I say things like I've seen this movie before, I mean that so many times I've seen coaches, along with their system and all, been called good coaches one year, then brutal coaches another. Therrien himself was apparently good a couple of years ago. Why would he decide all of a sudden to implement a bad system? Is Hitchcock a good coach? Is Tortorella a good coach? Carlysle? Laviolette? Martin? Boucher? Julien? Are they all much better than Therrien? If Therrien is a brutal coach preventing our team from being dominant, then it means the majority of them are significantly better and would turn the team into an excellent puck possession one. All these coaches have had great looking teams and bad looking ones. When their teams are not performing people complain about the same things: bad line combos, too much dump and chase, not trusting the young players, relying on vets too much etc. I just think generally speaking they looked good when they had good lineups and struggled to get results when they had weaker lineups.

All kinds of coaches have won the cup. Many ended up being referred to as bad coaches. From my point of view the quality of a coach is difficult to quantify, and doesn't vary that much between the 30 coaches out there. What is much less subjective though is that great lineups win cups. I don't think we currently have a great lineup, although some of our young players still have enough room to grow to turn it into a much better one. The focus should be on improving the lineup by fixing its glaring weaknesses. The system should look much better then.