The truth about this team

[Runner77]

Thing is, Therrien is late to the party, but he usually gets to the right answer... eventually.

I would also add that sometimes Therrien creates his own party, and it works.

Like the decision-making that led to Tokarski filling for Price in the playoffs and how that gamble ultimately led to the team trading Budaj. However, these types of "gambles" are few and far between, in the sense that sustained lack of performance is not enough to incite him to make a change -- fans tend to be a lot quicker on the trigger, which often proves to not be a bad thing.

Also, fans in general, appreciate a system based on meritocracy -- which on the outside looking in, is far easier to implement. From Therrien's perspective, there are balancing acts and power attributions, a long-held default position where experienced coaches will prefer vets and give them extra rope and the always present fear of antagonizing leading voices that can far too often cause a coach to "lose the room", as happened with Clod Julien, when he was coaching the Habs.

 

[Pricef*]

Yes I agree with this. I would also add that the goalie has little to do with the system. The skaters are the ones who execute the system. Our skaters simply aren't as good overall as the skaters from the select few elite teams in the league. Price allows us to compete with those teams and gives us outside hope, but unless he pulls a miracle a la Roy, this current group of skaters as is will not win the cup even with the great almighty Babcock as the coach.



Galchenyuk is being brought up pretty much the exact same way another player of similar talent was brought up, Tyler Seguin. By playing wing with a true pro and excellent two way center, playing fairly difficult minutes in the process. Was Julien being an idiot coach or did he contribute to Seguin turning into one the best centers in the world? Would it have been wiser to put huge pressure on Galchenyuk, a kid drafted 3rd overall, in this crazy market of ours, by playing him at the center position of the "top" line off the bat, Oilers' management style? Maybe. Seriously I don't know, but I can't rip management for taking things slowly with this diamond in the rough.

Beaulieu and Tinordi aren't exactly tearing it up in an inferior, much slower league. I fail to see how they would make us significantly better. Typically players who make a difference in the higher league are the ones who dominate their current league. And even that's not a garantee. Pateryn had excellent numbers in the AHL last season yet still struggles at the NHL level. Can't fault MB for being patient with them and allowing them to play a huge role in the AHL, hopefully mastering their craft in the process. That's essentially what some of the best organizations do.



Easy. Because my evaluation of the coach and that of the players that make up this team is different from yours. I think evaluating a coach from my position, that of a simple fan, is futile. I simply don't have enough data to claim that he's much worse than coaches we've had in the past or coaches from other teams. I also don't think at this level that there is a big difference between coaching staffs. I'm not new to this, I've seen coaches win the Jack Adams one year only to be kicked to the curb the next. I'd rather spend my time evaluating how players are on the ice. What I see is an average lineup with a superb goalie. Take the goalie out and I don't see line combos that turn us into legit contenders, unless key young players like Galchenyuk, Eller or Sekac break out. Price, like his huge salary suggests, is indeed part of the team, so when I look at the standings, we are pretty much where we belong, all things considered.

Amazing post

 

[BLONG7]

what other coach would put DD out for a defensive zone faceoff with 10 seconds left in the period when you have a guy named Malhotra on the bench who was signed for this kind of scenario? He should be fired for that reason alone. At that point diwn 2-0 going into the third is better than what happened with DD taking the draw.

Couldn't agree more...what was MT thinking??? Absolutely brutal in game decisions...

 

[Rapala]

Thank You for that ^^^^^^^
I don't think it covered what i was getting at.
I seem to recall someone posting it would be better if they stayed in Hamilton as we could sign them both on qualifying offers next year for less?

 

[Rapala]

I would also add that sometimes Therrien creates his own party, and it works.

Like the decision-making that led to Tokarski filling for Price in the playoffs and how that gamble ultimately led to the team trading Budaj. However, these types of "gambles" are few and far between, in the sense that sustained lack of performance is not enough to incite him to make a change -- fans tend to be a lot quicker on the trigger, which often proves to not be a bad thing.

Also, fans in general, appreciate a system based on meritocracy -- which on the outside looking in, is far easier to implement. From Therrien's perspective, there are balancing acts and power attributions, a long-held default position where experienced coaches will prefer vets and give them extra rope and the always present fear of antagonizing leading voices that can far too often cause a coach to "lose the room", as happened with Clod Julien, when he was coaching the Habs.

Waite...

 

[Tourist]

Who cares if he has little to do with the system, he's still a part of the team, and arguably the player we tried to build the whole team around so to exclude him is dumb. We made a conscious decision to build from the net out, so of course we'll have worse forwards then some other teams.

How is saying Price allows us to compete any different then saying Crosby allows Pittsburgh to compete, or Toews allows Chicago to compete. Of course we will look worse if you take away our top player and compare him to other teams. Take away Stamkos and compare the lightning's roster to other teams and suddendly they don't look so good either.

The bottom line is if you compare our 3 best players (Price, Subban, Pacioretty) against the 3 best players from any other teams, we don't look out of place.

I actually agree with you. Of course Price is part of our team, he's our best player.

It's just that many here say the system/line combos the coaching staff is using is mainly what is holding the team back from being a serious contender. Price isn't part of this system, that's why I excluded him in this particular conversation. IMO if we swapped Price with Stamkos our "system" would look much better because all the forwards would then be slotted where they belong. We wouldn't be much better overall though because we'd have significantly worse goaltending and still an average defense. So basically I'm saying Therrien has less to work with in terms of skaters compared to other teams that boast those great puck possession numbers. I look at the Chicago or LA lineup. Then I look at ours. I conclude Price is the reason we can at least compete with them.

 

[Kriss E]

Fleury.
He's playing great now but I keep thinking something will break soon.
It seems like Pittsburgh can't handle push back particularly PO push back.
It will be very interesting to see how they fare this year.
The Isles could be a thorn in their side all year long!

It's not just Fleury. Crosby and Malkin have been limited pretty well. They are incredible talent, so a bad production for them is a ppg, but because Pittsburgh rely on them so much, they need more production out of them.

 

[Rapala]

It's not just Fleury. Crosby and Malkin have been limited pretty well. They are incredible talent, so a bad production for them is a ppg, but because Pittsburgh rely on them so much, they need more production out of them.

Agreed,
Crosby seems easier to shut down than Gino.
But Fleury despite having pretty fair numbers doesn't come up with those game savers IMO.

 

[Kriss E]

I actually agree with you. Of course Price is part of our team, he's our best player.

It's just that many here say the system/line combos the coaching staff is using is mainly what is holding the team back from being a serious contender. Price isn't part of this system, that's why I excluded him in this particular conversation. IMO if we swapped Price with Stamkos our "system" would look much better because all the forwards would then be slotted where they belong. We wouldn't be much better overall though because we'd have significantly worse goaltending and still an average defense. So basically I'm saying Therrien has less to work with in terms of skaters compared to other teams that boast those great puck possession numbers. I look at the Chicago or LA lineup. Then I look at ours. I conclude Price is the reason we can at least compete with them.

You realize that you don't really need to get into a hypothetical with Stamkos right?
Therrien's time in Pittsburgh eventually came to a halt because of the same reasons he's being criticized here on. People have discussed the numerous similarities between how he's coaching our team and Pittsburgh. This is also not made up out of thin air, articles of his time back in Pittsburgh were posted to back up these claims.
Even with guys like Crosby, Malkin, Staal and Gonchar, his possession numbers were bad. You're talking about a team that had gone to the SC the year prior, mostly due to their massive talent, and that came crashing down the following year.
That instantly changed when Bylsma came in and their possession numbers improved. They went from about a .500 team to winning the cup.
So, no, if we added Stamkos, it wouldn't necessarily fix anything.

 

[Runner77]

Yes I agree with this. I would also add that the goalie has little to do with the system. The skaters are the ones who execute the system. Our skaters simply aren't as good overall as the skaters from the select few elite teams in the league. Price allows us to compete with those teams and gives us outside hope, but unless he pulls a miracle a la Roy, this current group of skaters as is will not win the cup even with the great almighty Babcock as the coach.

Pretty much how most of us see it. Bergevin inherited an organization in shambles. Not at all surprised that it takes more than the 4 years he's been at the helm, to draft, develop and integrate talent that complements the core we have. The Habs pre-Bergevin, have lost many opportunities to refurbish, have taken too many shortcuts, have doled out draft picks in exchange for journeymen, have neglected opportunities to cash in assets in respect of players on expiring contracts who were not likely to be re-signed or who implemented completely absurd policies that involved not signing any player contracts in-season.

Galchenyuk is being brought up pretty much the exact same way another player of similar talent was brought up, Tyler Seguin. By playing wing with a true pro and excellent two way center, playing fairly difficult minutes in the process. Was Julien being an idiot coach or did he contribute to Seguin turning into one the best centers in the world? Would it have been wiser to put huge pressure on Galchenyuk, a kid drafted 3rd overall, in this crazy market of ours, by playing him at the center position of the "top" line off the bat, Oilers' management style? Maybe. Seriously I don't know, but I can't rip management for taking things slowly with this diamond in the rough.

No one is going to argue that a player is always better off being brought up slowly. In Galchenyuk's case, I'd venture that he was the beneficiary of a depleted roster -- had he emerged now from the juniors, not sure he wouldn't have been sent back. He would have been better off playing in the minors for an extra season or two, plying his trade as a center, since this is what they had envisaged when drafting him. That said, I'm glad with his progression and how he's being brought along -- unhurried development can happen at the NHL level, but it's far more difficult to implement, since the NHL is not a development league. Galchenyuk has also had limited TOI during his first two seasons in the NHL -- TOI which would have been hugely increased had he been playing in the minors during that span.

Beaulieu and Tinordi aren't exactly tearing it up in an inferior, much slower league. I fail to see how they would make us significantly better. Typically players who make a difference in the higher league are the ones who dominate their current league. And even that's not a garantee. Pateryn had excellent numbers in the AHL last season yet still struggles at the NHL level. Can't fault MB for being patient with them and allowing them to play a huge role in the AHL, hopefully mastering their craft in the process. That's essentially what some of the best organizations do.

Tinordi and Beaulieu were not selected under Bergevin's tenure, so the new management he named and the player procurement, scouts and talent evaluators he brought in when he was hired, may have a different view of these players versus how the organization evaluated them at the time they were drafted. As a case in point, not sure that someone with Beaulieu's checkered past regarding several off-ice incidents and some character flaws that have been well-documented, would have allowed Beaulieu to score highly on the type of character filters that Bergevin deems imperative for draftees under his management.

Easy. Because my evaluation of the coach and that of the players that make up this team is different from yours. I think evaluating a coach from my position, that of a simple fan, is futile. I simply don't have enough data to claim that he's much worse than coaches we've had in the past or coaches from other teams. I also don't think at this level that there is a big difference between coaching staffs. I'm not new to this, I've seen coaches win the Jack Adams one year only to be kicked to the curb the next.

By the same token, all fan comments are "futile", as are media sources for that matter. Bergevin on Dec. 5, 2014:

Marc Bergevin n’écoute « jamais, jamais, jamais » la radio. Quand il ouvre la télé, dans son condo du quartier Saint-Henri, c’est pour regarder un film. Jamais pour suivre RDS, TVA Sports, Sportsnet ou l’une des multiples chaînes sportives.

Pour Bergevin, ce « jeûne médiatique » est un mécanisme de survie. « Je pourrais partir d’ici à 5 h en fin de journée et écouter les gérants d’estrade jusqu’à 10 h le soir, ça n’arrête jamais ! » Il refuse même de feuilleter la revue de presse quotidienne compilée par ses responsables des communications. « Je con*nais mon équipe, je n’ai pas besoin de savoir ce qu’un média pense. Si j’avais besoin de son avis, je l’engagerais. »

I'd rather spend my time evaluating how players are on the ice. What I see is an average lineup with a superb goalie. Take the goalie out and I don't see line combos that turn us into legit contenders, unless key young players like Galchenyuk, Eller or Sekac break out. Price, like his huge salary suggests, is indeed part of the team, so when I look at the standings, we are pretty much where we belong, all things considered.

It would be a treacherous exercise to do a point-by-point comparison with the lineups of teams stacking more talent, however, safe to say that in a cap world, every team will have holes in their lineups. What we can't control is which teams had early draft picks during those years that generational talents were available and how these teams are able to count on the type of elite talent that seldom becomes available to a team like the Habs, on the market. I think that any core that features an elite-type defenseman like Subban, an elite level goalie like Price, an elite scoring winger like Pacioretty and a talented top line playmaker on the way to becoming elite like Galchenyuk, has a core that can allow us to move to the next level. Perhaps it's just a matter of adding to it -- as on its own, it's still a small core unit, on account of the domino effect from years of mismanagement pre-Bergevin.

 

[Lshap]

I would also add that sometimes Therrien creates his own party, and it works.

Like the decision-making that led to Tokarski filling for Price in the playoffs and how that gamble ultimately led to the team trading Budaj. However, these types of "gambles" are few and far between, in the sense that sustained lack of performance is not enough to incite him to make a change -- fans tend to be a lot quicker on the trigger, which often proves to not be a bad thing.

Also, fans in general, appreciate a system based on meritocracy -- which on the outside looking in, is far easier to implement. From Therrien's perspective, there are balancing acts and power attributions, a long-held default position where experienced coaches will prefer vets and give them extra rope and the always present fear of antagonizing leading voices that can far too often cause a coach to "lose the room", as happened with Clod Julien, when he was coaching the Habs.

Yeah, we fans often jump to conclusions quicker and get it right, but we get it wrong even more often. I don't think we'd like the results of a team run by popular vote!

Good point about meritocracy being easier to impose from the outside. Try telling the loyal employee that he's fired because the young guy is better. It looks easy when it's a stranger, it's hard to do when it's a real person you see everyday. But there are limits, and even though I don't hate Therrien, there's no question he has default roles for default players.

 

[Sorinth]

I actually agree with you. Of course Price is part of our team, he's our best player.

It's just that many here say the system/line combos the coaching staff is using is mainly what is holding the team back from being a serious contender. Price isn't part of this system, that's why I excluded him in this particular conversation. IMO if we swapped Price with Stamkos our "system" would look much better because all the forwards would then be slotted where they belong. We wouldn't be much better overall though because we'd have significantly worse goaltending and still an average defense. So basically I'm saying Therrien has less to work with in terms of skaters compared to other teams that boast those great puck possession numbers. I look at the Chicago or LA lineup. Then I look at ours. I conclude Price is the reason we can at least compete with them.

Ok I think I misunderstood your point then.

Yes if looking purely at things like possession, Price doesn't do a whole lot. But I don't think it's fair to say our skaters can't put up good possession numbers.

First off, virtually the same team has been able to put up great possession numbers in the past, the 2012-2013 season, the first 20 games of last season, the playoffs against T-Bay and Boston. We had great possession numbers and were outplaying other teams fairly consistently. So clearly the players can do it.

Second we don't play teams like Chicago and LA 82 games, so even if we lose the possession game against those great teams, all the times we play Buffalo, Florida, Ottawa, etc... should more then make up for it. The fact is even against those crappy teams we often lose the possession game.

 

[Kriss E]

Yeah, we fans often jump to conclusions quicker and get it right, but we get it wrong even more often. I don't think we'd like the results of a team run by popular vote!

Good point about meritocracy being easier to impose from the outside. Try telling the loyal employee that he's fired because the young guy is better. It looks easy when it's a stranger, it's hard to do when it's a real person you see everyday. But there are limits, and even though I don't hate Therrien, there's no question he has default roles for default players.

I felt bad back in high school or elementary when we had to make teams in gym class and sometimes as a captain felt bad for the last guys chosen. I usually tried to get them into the game fast. So ya, it's pretty easy from the outside. Everything is.
But I also wasn't paid to make those decisions and the kids aren't paid athletes that understand the competitiveness within even a united roster.
There is a limit however. When a player that you're using for your offensive role center hasn't produced at 5 on 5 in 30 something game and in an interview says he feels he's playing pretty well, there's a freaking problem.

None of this has much to do with the system though, which is the biggest flaw of this team.

 

[Kriss E]

I didn't really care for Martin and I complained about his use of Darche and some other things but at the end of the day he wasn't that bad. MT is a truly terrible coach.

I had issues with how he treated the Kost broz, alienated Latendresse, and other stuff. But the result he yielded with the rosters he's had to deal with was pretty impressive.
We finished 6th despite having some key injuries and only one player finishing with more than 50pts.

 

[Lshap]

I felt bad back in high school or elementary when we had to make teams in gym class and sometimes as a captain felt bad for the last guys chosen. I usually tried to get them into the game fast. So ya, it's pretty easy from the outside. Everything is.
But I also wasn't paid to make those decisions and the kids aren't paid athletes that understand the competitiveness within even a united roster.
There is a limit however. When a player that you're using for your offensive role center hasn't produced at 5 on 5 in 30 something game and in an interview says he feels he's playing pretty well, there's a freaking problem.

None of this has much to do with the system though, which is the biggest flaw of this team.

I've defended Desharnais, but there's no question he's been awful. I'd love him to turn around his season as he did last year -- and he might -- just as long as it doesn't mean automatically falling back into Pacioretty's orbit. It would be great if he regains some swagger and puts up points on the 3rd line.

As far as the system, I can't even tell what I'm seeing anymore. Is it dump-&-chase that keeps being pinched and short-circuited? Or is it quick breakout passes that keep missing and end up dumped in or iced? I can no longer tell if it's the players having trouble executing the system, or a wimpy overly-cautious system that's short-circuiting the players. We're not in the locker so it's hard to say which one is the chicken and which is the egg.

But one thing I'm pretty sure of: It's the Habs Annual December Slump. Every frikkin year the team sucks around this time of year, we all moan and complain and want changes, yet a few weeks from now we'll be winning and the chemistry will be back. But man... right now we're a mess.

 

[Sorinth]

As far as the system, I can't even tell what I'm seeing anymore. Is it dump-&-chase that keeps being pinched and short-circuited? Or is it quick breakout passes that keep missing and end up dumped in or iced? I can no longer tell if it's the players having trouble executing the system, or a wimpy overly-cautious system that's short-circuiting the players. We're not in the locker so it's hard to say which one is the chicken and which is the egg.

Does it matter? Either way it comes down to Therrien not doing his job, he either doesn't have a good system or he can't get the players to follow the system. It's a coaching issue either way.

 

[Tourist]

There's enough data available to make a sound analysis, and there could be major differences between coaching staffs. Ask Vancouver how they feel with Desjardins vs Tortorella.

Which is why it is important to understand what the criticism is about.
In Therrien's case, it's valid. In Carbo's case, it was valid as well. In Martin's case, it wasn't.
There's always some things you can criticize someone on. The style of the team is boring, the misusage of a certain player. But when your team generally outplays your opposition, which is what happened under Martin, you have no need to want the coach to be replaced.
Sometimes a change is just in order, like Ruff in Buffalo or Trotz in Nashville.

I watch tons of hockey and frankly I don't see significant differences in systems. I can see significant differences in roster quality but I simply don't see any revolutionary systems out there. Or systems that stick out in a good or bad way. I acknowledge that some coaches employ styles that maybe better suited to be employed with certain lineups but generally the differences aren't that big. To me, tactics in hockey at this level simply aren't as influecial as tactics in football, for example.

Tortorella was once believed to be a very good coach. He even won the cup. Now he sucks. Desjardins is awesome. Boucher reinvented sliced bread a couple of years ago and convinced us it never existed. Now he sucks in Europ. Trotz was amazing for years in Nashville but frankly his system sucks now in Washington. We should have hired Roy. He did wonders with the Avalanche last season. Wait, he is destroying Mackinnon, he sucks. A young prodigy from the minors would be awesome, like Eakins. Naw he's ruining the development of his young players and sucks too. Julien, here's a good coach! Wait we had him and he sucked. Plus he chased Seguin out of B town with his stupid defense first system so yeah he definetely sucks.

See a pattern. I use to blame the coach. I'm just not buying it anymore. I couldn't care less about Therrien. He's not extraordinary enough in a good or bad way to make a significant difference.

Sometimes it's the players, sometimes it's the system. It's your job to figure out which one it is. If you can't, then read other people.
With our current group, it's easy. We have 12-13 season to go by. With a similar or even worse roster, we played a way more upbeat game and it lead us to having some pretty strong possession numbers. So we know this group can play better and it's not about the players.
In any even, we're not really fighting for the puck with the opposition, we're fighting with ourselves. As soon as we get the puck, our strategy is to get rid of it.
Get it in our zone, we either chip it out, or we try low percentage passes all the time. Get it in the neutral zone, and our play is to dump it most of the time.
You'll never get good possession with that strategy.

The main difference is players yes, but not the only one. We have already played a good possession game with the roster. We did so in 12-13 season, which is where people gave props to Therrien for being a different coach. We were doing the same for the first 20 games last year, but weren't winning as much. There was a drastic change after. It was evident to many here. Ever since then, our possession numbers dropped.

Our players is not the problem.

We had a different lineup in 2012-2013. Even the players that are still here aren't in the same place in their development, for better or worse. What did we win that year anyway? I don't think Therrien all of a sudden started telling guys to dump the puck and stop being creative with it. Fans always think that, no matter who is the coach. It makes me smile. He probably tells them things like to not take risks if a play isn't there, which is what the vast majority of coaches say. In my humble opinion, at this level, the main reason a group of players doesn't execute as well as another group is simply because they aren't as good. In our case though, a lot of our key players are young. Some are on the verge of breaking out. I think this group has in them to take big steps on an individual level, regardless of the system. If that happens the players will be in turn more confident, the ball will roll, we'll look much better as a team and most importantly, the infamous system and line combos will be good again.

 

[Kriss E]

I've defended Desharnais, but there's no question he's been awful. I'd love him to turn around his season as he did last year -- and he might -- just as long as it doesn't mean automatically falling back into Pacioretty's orbit. It would be great if he regains some swagger and puts up points on the 3rd line.

As far as the system, I can't even tell what I'm seeing anymore. Is it dump-&-chase that keeps being pinched and short-circuited? Or is it quick breakout passes that keep missing and end up dumped in or iced? I can no longer tell if it's the players having trouble executing the system, or a wimpy overly-cautious system that's short-circuiting the players. We're not in the locker so it's hard to say which one is the chicken and which is the egg.

But one thing I'm pretty sure of: It's the Habs Annual December Slump. Every frikkin year the team sucks around this time of year, we all moan and complain and want changes, yet a few weeks from now we'll be winning and the chemistry will be back. But man... right now we're a mess.

You don't really have to pin point the strategy. You can notice that things aren't going well when you watch the games, then you look at the stats and realize that ya, they're pretty bad, and they've been bad like this for quite some time but we were somehow winning.
Those wins are a testament to how talented and deep this team is. Somehow though, some people will look at it the other way around. They'll look at our current bad stretch and say ''ya we're not that good..missing this or that''. However the 12-13 season showed us that ya, we are good enough to get good possession stats and it was reflected with our position in standings.
Our talent is the only thing that has kept this thing afloat since the 20ish game mark of last season but people can't see this.

I'm convinced we'd be as good as anyone else in the East if we got a strong strategic coach in here.

 

[Lshap]

Does it matter? Either way it comes down to Therrien not doing his job, he either doesn't have a good system or he can't get the players to follow the system. It's a coaching issue either way.

Well, no, it's not the coach's fault if the players are cold. A coach can adapt, mix it up, push harder or ease up, but sometimes there are no magic words or actions a coach can add.

It's the same with hot streaks. I'm guessing you won't credit Therrien for our first two months, so why blame him entirely for our last two weeks? Does he deserve some blame? Absolutely. All of it? No.

 

[Habitant#1]

You realize that you don't really need to get into a hypothetical with Stamkos right?
Therrien's time in Pittsburgh eventually came to a halt because of the same reasons he's being criticized here on. People have discussed the numerous similarities between how he's coaching our team and Pittsburgh. This is also not made up out of thin air, articles of his time back in Pittsburgh were posted to back up these claims.
Even with guys like Crosby, Malkin, Staal and Gonchar, his possession numbers were bad. You're talking about a team that had gone to the SC the year prior, mostly due to their massive talent, and that came crashing down the following year.
That instantly changed when Bylsma came in and their possession numbers improved. They went from about a .500 team to winning the cup.
So, no, if we added Stamkos, it wouldn't necessarily fix anything.

I don't necessarily disagree, but Bylsma benefitted from the return of a prime Gonchar as well. I don't have any numbers to back it up, but I'm certain he alone would have had a huge impact on possession!

 

[Sorinth]

Well, no, it's not the coach's fault if the players are cold. A coach can adapt, mix it up, push harder or ease up, but sometimes there are no magic words or actions a coach can add.

It's the same with hot streaks. I'm guessing you won't credit Therrien for our first two months, so why blame him entirely for our last two weeks? Does he deserve some blame? Absolutely. All of it? No.

I gave Therrien plenty of credit in 2012-2013 because we were actually outplaying the opponents. He was getting pretty much the best out of every player on the roster. Last season he got career worsts from pretty much every player on the roster, and things haven't improved much at all this season.

Players go hot/cold and yes it has little to do with the coach, but when all players are having a bad year then yes it does fall on the coach. When things that are clearly under the coaches ability to do something like the PP yes he should get blamed for it sucking for months on end. When the coach continually uses cold players over hot players then yes the coach is deservedly blamed.

Maybe it's not Therrien's fault but if the players have tuned him out it doesn't matter whose fault it is. The only way to fix it is to fire the coach or trade a core player. And trading a core player almost never works out.

 

[Tourist]

You realize that you don't really need to get into a hypothetical with Stamkos right?
Therrien's time in Pittsburgh eventually came to a halt because of the same reasons he's being criticized here on. People have discussed the numerous similarities between how he's coaching our team and Pittsburgh. This is also not made up out of thin air, articles of his time back in Pittsburgh were posted to back up these claims.
Even with guys like Crosby, Malkin, Staal and Gonchar, his possession numbers were bad. You're talking about a team that had gone to the SC the year prior, mostly due to their massive talent, and that came crashing down the following year.
That instantly changed when Bylsma came in and their possession numbers improved. They went from about a .500 team to winning the cup.
So, no, if we added Stamkos, it wouldn't necessarily fix anything.

The lineups weren't equal. Players were not at the same place in their development. Where's Bylsma now anyway? We should hire him ASAP. But wait, based on the same Pen fans and media he's turned into a brutal coach too. Blame the coach. I've seen this movie so many times.

 

[Lshap]

You don't really have to pin point the strategy. You can notice that things aren't going well when you watch the games, then you look at the stats and realize that ya, they're pretty bad, and they've been bad like this for quite some time but we were somehow winning.
Those wins are a testament to how talented and deep this team is. Somehow though, some people will look at it the other way around. They'll look at our current bad stretch and say ''ya we're not that good..missing this or that''. However the 12-13 season showed us that ya, we are good enough to get good possession stats and it was reflected with our position in standings.
Our talent is the only thing that has kept this thing afloat since the 20ish game mark of last season but people can't see this.

I'm convinced we'd be as good as anyone else in the East if we got a strong strategic coach in here.

You're right about the talent being there. Yeah, the team has holes, but so does every other good team. Strategically, Therrien was pretty capable in the playoffs, so hopefully he'll adapt again when it counts. Right now I'm more worried about what assistant coach Daigneault is doing to fix the D and help Beaulieu when he's back.

One thing -- we were amazing in 2012/13, but part of the team's success is that other teams didn't know what to expect in Therrien's first season. We went from Martin's stifling defensive system to Therrien's speed and skate game, and it caught everyone napping. Unfortunately, other teams adapted, outmuscled our defence and hemmed us in, so by this time last year we were back to dump-and-chase. It's not that Therrien decided to change the system; it's that the opposition forced him to.

 

[Lshap]

I gave Therrien plenty of credit in 2012-2013 because we were actually outplaying the opponents. He was getting pretty much the best out of every player on the roster. Last season he got career worsts from pretty much every player on the roster, and things haven't improved much at all this season.

Players go hot/cold and yes it has little to do with the coach, but when all players are having a bad year then yes it does fall on the coach. When things that are clearly under the coaches ability to do something like the PP yes he should get blamed for it sucking for months on end. When the coach continually uses cold players over hot players then yes the coach is deservedly blamed.

Maybe it's not Therrien's fault but if the players have tuned him out it doesn't matter whose fault it is. The only way to fix it is to fire the coach or trade a core player. And trading a core player almost never works out.

Funny - one year ago I was saying the exact same thing: Fire Therrien because he's lost the room. But then the team turned it around. Not saying this year will be a carbon copy, but it's never wise to hire/fire based on a bad two weeks. If the team's still struggling in a month I'll reconsider.

 

[Kriss E]

I watch tons of hockey and frankly I don't see significant differences in systems. I can see significant differences in roster quality but I simply don't see any revolutionary systems out there. Or systems that stick out in a good or bad way. I acknowledge that some coaches employ styles that maybe better suited to be employed with certain lineups but generally the differences aren't that big. To me, tactics in hockey at this level simply aren't as influecial as tactics in football, for example.

No offense, but you can watch as much hockey as you want, it doesn't mean you actually can understand the underlying strategies. It doesn't even mean you can notice them.
I'm not saying you don't, just that saying you watch tons of hockey isn't much of an argument for understanding and noticing strategies.
I agree, Football is way more strategic, doesn't mean strategies aren't present or they don't impact the game in hockey. They are and they do.

Tortorella was once believed to be a very good coach. He even won the cup. Now he sucks. Desjardins is awesome. Boucher reinvented sliced bread a couple of years ago and convinced us it never existed. Now he sucks in Europ. Trotz was amazing for years in Nashville but frankly his system sucks now in Washington. We should have hired Roy. He did wonders with the Avalanche last season. Wait, he is destroying Mackinnon, he sucks. A young prodigy from the minors would be awesome, like Eakins. Naw he's ruining the development of his young players and sucks too. Julien, here's a good coach! Wait we had him and he sucked. Plus he chased Seguin out of B town with his stupid defense first system so yeah he definetely sucks.

Tortorella wasn't that great, he just put his best players out there the most as possible. His success came more than a decade ago. But hey, bad coaches have won before, unless you want to argue that Jean Perron was a good coach..?
Boucher is a good coach. He got fired for reasons that aren't really known to me. He's doing pretty well in Europe btw and he'd be my candidate if we were to replace Therrien tomorrow. Somehow he gets ridiculed because of the Flyers game. It's when his strategy was so efficient, it forced the opposition to completely be neutralized. So much so that they had to give up possession and take a faceoffs. If I were a ref I would have given a penalty to Pronger for delay of game/unsportsmanlike. But somehow, people make fun of Boucher and TB instead of Philly who had the puck and opted to do nothing.
Tortz had his time in Nashville, it was time to change it up. What he's done there with some seriously lack luster teams is impressive. How will he do in Wsh is unknown. I haven't watched them enough to know what system he's trying to implement there.
Roy many people were arguing that it was all smoke. That he isn't a strong coach and that the troubles in Colorado we're seeing today we're bound to happen. People predicted that. Care to guess what people told those posters?
Eakins is in a mess. Edmonton is a terrible place to be in. They have to change a lot of things there and it starts with management. Get rid of Kevin Lowe and MacT.
Get a decent GM that isn't lost like those two clowns.

See a pattern. I use to blame the coach. I'm just not buying it anymore. I couldn't care less about Therrien. He's not extraordinary enough in a good or bad way to make a significant difference.

Disagree completely. We saw the same thing in Pittsburgh and they improved instantly after his firing.

We had a different lineup in 2012-2013. Even the players that are still here aren't in the same place in their development, for better or worse. What did we win that year anyway? I don't think Therrien all of a sudden started telling guys to dump the puck and stop being creative with it. Fans always think that, no matter who is the coach. It makes me smile. He probably tells them things like to not take risks if a play isn't there, which is what the vast majority of coaches say. In my humble opinion, at this level, the main reason a group of players doesn't execute as well as another group is simply because they aren't as good. In our case though, a lot of our key players are young. Some are on the verge of breaking out. I think this group has in them to take big steps on an individual level, regardless of the system. If that happens the players will be in turn more confident, the ball will roll and we'll look much better as a team.

Well we know for a fact that you're wrong because otherwise, the best team would always win.
Also, yes, we are a better group than in 2012-2013. Even PK who's been criticized is producing at a career high at ES. We are better. Putting Allen in over Beaulieu is a roster decision that worsens us taken by the coach. Just like we saw an immediate improvement in the POs when we put NB in over Murray.
I don't know if Therrien told the guys to stop doing whatever. We did hear him repeat ''we are a grinding team'' on 24CH numerous times though, and we saw a different style of hockey in 2013-2014 vs most of last year + this year.