The San Jose first?

[BondraTime]

I think DeMelo has at least worked his way into the "top 4D" conversation with his play this year (how he's managed to be a +8 on the most atrocious defensive team I've ever seen is nothing short of a miracle). Tierney on the other hand, I have no idea where he fits in with Pageau back and Brown on his way, assuming he can stay healthy.

If we are slotting Demelo into a top 4 role in the future we are doomed

 

[billpo]

I realize it's a long shot, but what do you think the odds are that the sharks tank this year, miss the playoffs and this pick turns into something solid for us?

the same odds of us going to the playoffs and winning the cup....

 

[bert]

I think DeMelo has at least worked his way into the "top 4D" conversation with his play this year (how he's managed to be a +8 on the most atrocious defensive team I've ever seen is nothing short of a miracle). Tierney on the other hand, I have no idea where he fits in with Pageau back and Brown on his way, assuming he can stay healthy.

Demelo is the 2nd best d man on the team they need him badly. Really just outlines the real problems with this team.

They need a top pairing RD and to get Ceci the hell out of here. A true number 1 RD would change everything for this team and would let the right side slot in properly.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Tierney and DeMelo seem like nothing more than stop gaps that will inevitably be moved in the next couple years.

 

[Burrowsaurus]

If we are slotting Demelo into a top 4 role in the future we are doomed

Are you a Bernard Docker believer?

 

[InTkachukWeTrust]

Demelo is the 2nd best d man on the team they need him badly. Really just outlines the real problems with this team.

They need a top pairing RD and to get Ceci the hell out of here. A true number 1 RD would change everything for this team and would let the right side slot in properly.

Hamilton for Duche

 

[bert]

Hamilton for Duche

I could see them doing Ceci and Duchene for Hamilton potentially. Which I would do.

 

[InTkachukWeTrust]

I could see them doing Ceci and Duchene for Hamilton potentially. Which I would do.

I guess we need to hope Carolina climbs their way up to the wild card spot and pick up Duchene for the playoffs (which will help them resign him)

 

[BonkTastic]

If we are slotting Demelo into a top 4 role in the future we are doomed

I can buy Demelo as a #4 guy because RD's are scarce, and evaluating based on replacement value of right-shot defencemen, you could make a case that he's a low-end-but-passable #4 guy.

If he's your #4 guy, you'd better have a great #3 guy to pair with him though.

 

[BondraTime]

I can buy Demelo as a #4 guy because RD's are scarce, and evaluating based on replacement value of right-shot defencemen, you could make a case that he's a low-end-but-passable #4 guy.

If he's your #4 guy, you'd better have a great #3 guy to pair with him though.

I don't see it, he's like a reverse Priessing; better in his own end than the offensive, but not good enough at either to play meaningful minutes on a successful team. I think any team that has him in their top 4 is in trouble.

 

[h2]

I don't see it, he's like a reverse Priessing; better in his own end than the offensive, but not good enough at either to play meaningful minutes on a successful team. I think any team that has him in their top 4 is in trouble.

I see him as a solid #6, nothing more or less.

 

[BonkTastic]

I don't see it, he's like a reverse Priessing; better in his own end than the offensive, but not good enough at either to play meaningful minutes on a successful team. I think any team that has him in their top 4 is in trouble.

I admit I'm grading on a curve, here.

RD is the hardest position in hockey to fill, and the least deep of skill by far.

If he were a LD, I'd agree completely with you. I'm just comparing him with replacement value at his position.

I think we are seeing the same player here. The difference apparently is just in how we approach the scarcity of top-4 right shot defencemen.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

Ya, i don't think he'll exceed McDavid's overall contract value, just the yearly value.

Karlsson is the best player to ever hit UFA in the modern high paid era that I can think of and we saw what happened with Tavares when he was made available.

So an AAV of more than $12.5 ?

 

[aragorn]

Karlsson is way better and quite a bit younger.

I don't think EK is way better than Burns who won a Norris with EK in the running, he is younger though. I would argue that EK is slightly better offensively & Burns is better defensively & Burns has been right up there with EK & Doughty for a number of yrs challenging for Norris awards & they are all comparable. In fact, this yr Burns leads SJ in scoring with 49 pts to EK's 41 pts in two less games, so again EK is not way better but he is younger.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

What does that have to do with Tierny and Demelo's value in a rebuild? Are you saying they are just providing what we could have gotten for free in free agency?

Tell me, where did the Leafs get these players? They are all retired, as they served their purpose of filling in a rebuilding roster at no cost to the franchises assets. Where do you see Demelo and Tierny in 3 years?

Bolland
Lombardi
McClement
Fraser
Connolly
Frattin
Komisarek
Colbourne
MacArthur
Raymond
Gunnersson
Ranger
Winnik
Santorelli
Booth
Robidas

Hint: They got these guys for free, as we easily could have got guys similar to Tierny and Demelo

Let's look at what the Leafs brought in for their guy in Kessel (with a bad contract, and nowhere near as good). They have Kasperi Kapanen, who is 22 and on pace for 27 goals and 50 points, future draft picks they turned into Fredrick Anderson, and later used Spaling for 2 2nd round picks.

So, we can hope for Norris/Balcers to develop like Kapanen has, we can hope to turn SJ's pick into a 26 year old #1 goalie, and then hope to trade Demelo and Tierny for a couple of 2nd rounders.

You do know that the Senators have to dress 18 skaters each game, and have enough organizational depth to provide call ups for injuries, and to keep prospects playing everyday in the AHL, until they're ready for the NHL.

This is what the Tierny and Demelo type of players allow the Senators to do.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

Tierney and DeMelo seem like nothing more than stop gaps that will inevitably be moved in the next couple years.

Exactly, they're both in the second last year of their contracts, so next year, they could very well be traded at the TDL, if the Senators decide it's time to move on from them.



I find it a bit strange that a lot of people still have their knickers in a knot, from having Methot selected in the Expansion draft, and seem to think he was valuable enough to have been protected at the expense of Cody Ceci ............... never mind that he was older, and had a history of injuries, and has only played 45 games, in two seasons for the Stars .............. but they don't see the value in DeMelo, who I would choose over Methot, to play the next few seasons with the Senators.

 

[branch]

You do know that the Senators have to dress 18 skaters each game, and have enough organizational depth to provide call ups for injuries, and to keep prospects playing everyday in the AHL, until they're ready for the NHL.

This is what the Tierny and Demelo type of players allow the Senators to do.

So they can play for the team as a pure logistical need, whilst not providing any notable hockey contributions. Gotcha.

 

[stempniaksen]

I don't think EK is way better than Burns who won a Norris with EK in the running, he is younger though. I would argue that EK is slightly better offensively & Burns is better defensively & Burns has been right up there with EK & Doughty for a number of yrs challenging for Norris awards & they are all comparable. In fact, this yr Burns leads SJ in scoring with 49 pts to EK's 41 pts in two less games, so again EK is not way better but he is younger.

There is no world where Brent Burns is better than Karlsson defensively.

People liked to use the old "4th forward" line to slag Karlsson, but that's literally what Burns is out there. He's the definition of a rover, and I'm saying this as a noted Burns fan.

Brent Burns is better at body checking and scoring goals and that's about it.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

So an AAV of more than $12.5 ?

I think it will be offered by at least one team. That said, I think he will accept a lesser aav with a more competitive team or a preferred location.

This is arguably the greatest UFA of all time if he makes it to July 1 (during the era of overpaid rich ass hockey players) and it is going to be damn silly. The one thing that could throw a wrench in this is if Duchene and Stone hit the open market at the same time. That's 3 of the best UFA's ever to actually make it to July 1, it'll be happening all at once and most teams would only be able to fit 1 of them.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

There is no world where Brent Burns is better than Karlsson defensively.

People liked to use the old "4th forward" line to slag Karlsson, but that's literally what Burns is out there. He's the definition of a rover, and I'm saying this as a noted Burns fan.

Brent Burns is better at body checking and scoring goals and that's about it.

Actually Brent Burns has an NHL regular season goals per game ave of .188, while Karlsson is at .192

So pretty much the same at scoring goals, in the NHL, during the regular season.

I don't remember EK65 playing to much on the PK, while in Ottawa, and don't know if Burns plays on the PK in SJ ....... perhaps someone else knows of a site to find this data, as that might shed some light on who is the better defensively.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

I think it will be offered by at least one team. That said, I think he will accept a lesser aav with a more competitive team or a preferred location.

This is arguably the greatest UFA of all time if he makes it to July 1 (during the era of overpaid rich ass hockey players) and it is going to be damn silly. The one thing that could throw a wrench in this is if Duchene and Stone hit the open market at the same time. That's 3 of the best UFA's ever to actually make it to July 1, it'll be happening all at once and most teams would only be able to fit 1 of them.

there are a couple of guys in Columbus that are set to become UFAs that might be just as coveted as Stone or Duchene may be

 

[aragorn]

There is no world where Brent Burns is better than Karlsson defensively.

People liked to use the old "4th forward" line to slag Karlsson, but that's literally what Burns is out there. He's the definition of a rover, and I'm saying this as a noted Burns fan.

Brent Burns is better at body checking and scoring goals and that's about it.

Of course there is, he is 6'5' 230 lbs, he has the size & weight to push forwards away from the front of the net, something EK can't do, he blocks tons of shots, he can punish them along the boards & in the corners & he can drop them if need be all the while he still puts up plenty of pts.

 

[stempniaksen]

Actually Brent Burns has an NHL regular season goals per game ave of .188, while Karlsson is at .192

So pretty much the same at scoring goals, in the NHL, during the regular season.

I don't remember EK65 playing to much on the PK, while in Ottawa, and don't know if Burns plays on the PK in SJ ....... perhaps someone else knows of a site to find this data, as that might shed some light on who is the better defensively.

In regards to BB vs EK goal scoring, your stats may be valid, but it would be interesting to see the numbers without Burns' time in Minnesota. He's been a vastly different player in San Jose and has reached a level recently (27 goals, 29 goals) that Karlsson has yet to reach (and probably won't ever in all honesty).

As far as your 2nd point, I think we've finally reached a point where we can accept that PK time isn't a good indicator of defensive prowess. Guys with offensive skills will obviously be utilized more on the PP and 5 on 5, and there's only so much time they can spend on the ice. Usually this means they don't play the PK. I'm sure Ceci and Boro have played more PK time than Chabot, but that certainly doesn't mean they're better defensively.

 

[BondraTime]

You do know that the Senators have to dress 18 skaters each game, and have enough organizational depth to provide call ups for injuries, and to keep prospects playing everyday in the AHL, until they're ready for the NHL.

This is what the Tierny and Demelo type of players allow the Senators to do.

That is my point, you don't take guys who serve nothing to the team other than a year or two place holder, that is just absolutely terrible thing to get back for Karlsson when you can just sign guys from Europe/UFA to do the exact same thing for free. We could have kept Paul up and he'd provide the same place holder position that Tierny is, albeit a worse player, which doesn't matter as we are not competing.

We could sign Viktor Stalber for 3 million over the next 2 years and he'd be a placeholder in the same vein. Holds no value to the team when it will compete, but lets the kids stay in the AHL to develop.

Likewise with Boedker. What would have been better? Take a 2nd, 4th and 5th from Florida (we are actually getting their 2nd as Wilson schooled Dorion by getting it from Florida and then using it in the Karlsson trade) and signed a placeholder, or take a placeholder in Boedker and give up a 5th for a 6th? Is the difference in talent between Boedker and the UFA/Europe signing at a time we are nowhere near competing worth more than a 2nd, 4th and (2) 5ths? I certainly don't think so.

 

[stempniaksen]

Of course there is, he is 6'5' 230 lbs, he has the size & weight to push forwards away from the front of the net, something EK can't do, he blocks tons of shots, he can punish them along the boards & in the corners & he can drop them if need be all the while he still puts up plenty of pts.

Size =/= defensive prowess.

Might be wasting my time here given your posting history, but it seems obvious to me that they don't necessarily go hand in hand.

Blocked shots also isn't the best metric, but EK led the league in blocked shots 2 years ago if you want to put some weight into that.

And being able to drop the gloves is a sign of good defence? You're reaching here.