The San Jose first?

[aragorn]

Size =/= defensive prowess.

Might be wasting my time here given your posting history, but it seems obvious to me that they don't necessarily go hand in hand.

Blocked shots also isn't the best metric, but EK led the league in blocked shots 2 years ago if you want to put some weight into that.

But we're not talking about everyone we are talking about Brent Burns versus EK & Burns has been at the top of the Norris trophy talk for at least five yrs now & considered to be one of the best defencemen in the NHL. And having that size & weight gives him much more leverage & strength to deal with the big NHL forwards that push smaller defencemen away. You can make fun of it, but it's a fact.

EK is also in the running yr after yr for the Norris because of his offensive pt production & yr after yr it's his defensive game that constantly comes into question, not so with Burns although he makes defensive gaffes too as all defencemen do. It's Burn's size, weight & strength IMO that gives him a big advantage over EK defensively.

 

[Sensmileletsgo]

But we're not talking about everyone we are talking about Brent Burns versus EK & Burns has been at the top of the Norris trophy talk for at least five yrs now & considered to be one of the best defencemen in the NHL. And having that size & weight gives him much more leverage & strength to deal with the big NHL forwards that push smaller defencemen away. You can make fun of it, but it's a fact.

EK is also in the running yr after yr for the Norris because of his offensive pt production & yr after yr it's his defensive game that constantly comes into question, not so with Burns although he makes defensive gaffes too as all defencemen do. It's Burn's size, weight & strength IMO that gives him a big advantage over EK defensively.

Watching the game last night against Edmonton, EK got a lot of time against McDavid and completely shut him down. EK matches up far better against fast forwards then Burns.

 

[stempniaksen]

But we're not talking about everyone we are talking about Brent Burns versus EK & Burns has been at the top of the Norris trophy talk for at least five yrs now & considered to be one of the best defencemen in the NHL. And having that size & weight gives him much more leverage & strength to deal with the big NHL forwards that push smaller defencemen away. You can make fun of it, but it's a fact.

EK is also in the running yr after yr for the Norris because of his offensive pt production & yr after yr it's his defensive game that constantly comes into question, not so with Burns although he makes defensive gaffes too as all defencemen do. It's Burn's size, weight & strength IMO that gives him a big advantage over EK defensively.

They're both in the Norris talk primarily for their offence. Burns never finished top-20 in Norris voting until the 2015-16 season (the year he flirted with 30 goals and put up his first season over 60 points) and he's been one of the top contenders every year since because he's continue to put up offensive numbers. The guy is a sub-par defender through and through and only began to gain recognition when he started putting up (borderline historic) goal scoring.

You're letting your biases form your opinion in this case instead of looking at the facts. The fancy stats back up my claims, the eye test backs up my claims. I'm not sure what to tell you. You are vastly overrating Burns' defensive game, it's just not that good.

You're stuck in an "old school" way of thinking when it comes to what a defenceman in today's NHL should be. Karlsson is arguably the best transition defender in the league, something Burns struggles with. Sure BB is better at clearing the front of the net, but that's such a small specific part of playing defence, there's so much more to it than that.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Exactly, they're both in the second last year of their contracts, so next year, they could very well be traded at the TDL, if the Senators decide it's time to move on from them.



I find it a bit strange that a lot of people still have their knickers in a knot, from having Methot selected in the Expansion draft, and seem to think he was valuable enough to have been protected at the expense of Cody Ceci ............... never mind that he was older, and had a history of injuries, and has only played 45 games, in two seasons for the Stars .............. but they don't see the value in DeMelo, who I would choose over Methot, to play the next few seasons with the Senators.

Ya, they're movable pieces for a couple draft picks for sure, just doubt it happens this year. I think they're more likely to move Pageau than Tierney since JGP will be UFA after next year and likely get a raise.

I don't think many argue Methot should have been protected over him in the draft itself, I know that's not my argument because I do believe Ceci held more "value" as an asset to move in the future. That value was dictated by age alone though and we just wanted to keep the significantly better dman some how, some way regardless of age and contract and would have preferred the organization be more pro-active moving on from Ceci much sooner.

Yes, he got injured after going to Dallas, but that's unpredictable and Methot was such a better player for us and it's not particularly close. You might choose DeMelo over Methot now maybe, but you'd be a fool to choose him over the Methot we had. Crazy for us to think he might continue that and not get injured almost immediately.

This is another one of those situations, like the Hoffman and Karlsson trades, where some real circumstances will be pointed to as at least some of the reasoning, but that doesn't help the fact that we got worse by keeping the lesser player/sending out the better one and that there may have been other routes to take without such significant downgrades in talent. That kind of shit is bound to make fans bitter when it happens over and over and over, even if there are legitimate points of argument for each move in a bubble.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

there are a couple of guys in Columbus that are set to become UFAs that might be just as coveted as Stone or Duchene may be

Good call, them too. Could be the best UFA class ever this year.

 

[aragorn]

They're both in the Norris talk primarily for their offence. Burns never finished top-20 in Norris voting until the 2015-16 season (the year he flirted with 30 goals and put up his first season over 60 points) and he's been one of the top contenders every year since because he's continue to put up offensive numbers. The guy is a sub-par defender through and through and only began to gain recognition when he started putting up (borderline historic) goal scoring.

You're letting your biases form your opinion in this case instead of looking at the facts. The fancy stats back up my claims, the eye test backs up my claims. I'm not sure what to tell you. You are vastly overrating Burns' defensive game, it's just not that good.

You're stuck in an "old school" way of thinking when it comes to what a defenceman in today's NHL should be. Karlsson is arguably the best transition defender in the league, something Burns struggles with. Sure BB is better at clearing the front of the net, but that's such a small specific part of playing defence, there's so much more to it than that.

Everyone has biases, people like what they like & vice-a-versa. Teams are playing in front of the net almost every shift, it's not a small part of the game it's a huge part of the game to defend in front of your own net & can happen almost every shift. Ottawa seems to spend have the game in their own end defending in front of the net these days.

I like what I see from Burns defensively, I don't get to see him as often obviously because he plays in the west but I always went to SJ games when they came to town over the yrs & would take him over EK. He does make mistakes as every NHL defencemen does. I don't think I'm vastly over rating Burns defensive game I'm simply saying it's better than EK's IMO. I've criticized EK's defensive game hundreds of times on here & I wasn't the only one criticizing his game last yr. Anyway, thanks it was fun.

 

[Micklebot]

Taking an AAV less than McDavid's, as an UFA, would mean he's taking less than the $88 Million he was offered by Ottawa.

But I agree, I think he's had a destination in mind for over a year now, and will be happy with the change of address, as the approximately $49 Million he earned in Ottawa is more than enough to support him and his family for a number of generations, and anything else is just icing on the cake.

I've seen you float this argument before, but it essentially assumes Karlsson will retire after his next deal. By taking a 7 year deal, he's not foregoing salary in year 8, he's just deferring it to future negotiation. If the salary cap keeps going up 2% to 5% a year, we could easily see a salary cap of 100+ mil by the time he needs to sign a deal for that 8th year he deferred by taking a 7 year deal. In that kind of environment, a 36 year old Karlsson could still get a pretty lucrative deal

If he were to sign a 7 year deal at 12.5, a league minimum deal would be enough to put him on par with the reported 11 mil per deal ottawa offered. If he signed a deal for say 7.5 mil in year 8, it would only take a deal with above an 11.5 mil cap hit now for him to make more over the combined 8 year period.

Signing a 7 year deal at a higher cap hit now might mean not being guaranteed money in year 8, but by accepting that risk he can greatly increase his potential earnings over the same period with minimal risk, while also having the advantage of time value of money (money now can be invested, so is worth more than the same amount over a longer period of time).

 

[Micklebot]

Good call, them too. Could be the best UFA class ever this year.

They might be coveted, but Columbus is likely to be in the playoff hunt and unwilling to move them at the deadline. Might be more of a Jul target for teams

 

[Sentron5000]

My guess is Karlsson signs with the Rangers, and they'll somehow move some money out of that atrocious D. Maybe flip Shattenkirk (with some money held) for the rights to Karlsson right after the finals....assuming he doesn't resign with SJ.

 

[pzeeman]

My guess is Karlsson signs with the Rangers, and they'll somehow move some money out of that atrocious D. Maybe flip Shattenkirk (with some money held) for the rights to Karlsson right after the finals....assuming he doesn't resign with SJ.

I wonder how that "trade him to the East" is worded. Does it end when the TDL passes, when the regular season is done, SJ's season is done, when the Cup finals are over, July 1, 2019?

 

[BondraTime]

I wonder how that "trade him to the East" is worded. Does it end when the TDL passes, when the regular season is done, SJ's season is done, when the Cup finals are over, July 1, 2019?

During the season, so by the trade deadline

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

They might be coveted, but Columbus is likely to be in the playoff hunt and unwilling to move them at the deadline. Might be more of a Jul target for teams

Right you are, July 1 silly season was the context we were discussing. It started with my opinion that on the open market Karlsson will get offers with the largest AAV we've seen yet, even McDavid. Usually the best guys end up being re-signed, but at this point we could be looking at a UFA class with these 5 names at the top...

Karlsson
Stone
Duchene
Bobrovsky
Panarin

 

[Micklebot]

Right you are, July 1 silly season was the context we were discussing. It started with my opinion that on the open market Karlsson will get offers with the largest AAV we've seen yet, even McDavid. Usually the best guys end up being re-signed, but at this point we could be looking at a UFA class with these 5 names at the top...

Karlsson
Stone
Duchene
Bobrovsky
Panarin

Oh, my bad, I was thinking trade deadline sillyness.

OT but I can't recall a team heading into the season like Ottawa was with it's 3 best players all UFA to be by season's end. When has a team moved on from 3 guys at that level in the prime of their careers all in the span of 6 months... and that's not even counting ditching Hoffman for scraps...

Anyhow, I hope the SJ first is next years, and Karlsson goes to UFA, or alternatively SJ wins the cup and he re-signs. One way we get a second chance at the pick being a non-playoff pick, and the other we get an extra 1st.

 

[hawthy]

I wonder how that "trade him to the East" is worded. Does it end when the TDL passes, when the regular season is done, SJ's season is done, when the Cup finals are over, July 1, 2019?

Definitely trade deadline, otherwise imagine the scenario where Karlsson leaves SJ, comes back to OTT (an eastern team) on July 1st, thereby entitling Ottawa to that conditional, additional 1st round pick? Lol! Dorion isn’t clever enough, even if it were a possibility. Definitely trade deadline.

 

[BonHoonLayneCornell]

Oh, my bad, I was thinking trade deadline sillyness.

I can't recall a team heading into the season like Ottawa was with it's 3 best players all UFA to be by season's end. When has a team moved on from 3 guys at that level in the prime of their careers all in the span of 6 months... and that's not even counting ditching Hoffman for scraps...

When we were looking to be entering the season with our 4 best players in Karlsson, Duchene, Stone & Dzingel all as pending UFA's, I tried to lookup examples in the 4 major pro sports in NA that even came close. I could not find anything remotely comparable. The worst seems to have been baseball in markets like Oakland and Kansas City, but that's in part because it's such an advanced stats dominated sports now that teams are pretty well aware of how it will play out. MLB isn't a great comparable either because it's the worst for have's/have not's and many teams go in to the season knowing full well they have zero chance. Teams have obviously torn it down to rebuild, but they don't seem to allow a complete contract nightmare like that.

If you include Dzingel and Hoffman, and we do in fact move the UFA line at the deadline, we have imo moved our 5 best players in the course of about 7 or 8 months. That is absolutely insane and unprecedented

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

Good call, them too. Could be the best UFA class ever this year.

2019 NHL Free Agents Tracker

 

[NorthCoast]

2019 NHL Free Agents Tracker

Looking over the list, if you take away the old guys, can't help but see a trend of which teams have not resigned star players.

Call me a conspiracy nut...but it's awfully convenient that so many small market teams cannot afford to resign their stars a year before a lockout.

Both for the small market teams and the league that will claim small markets can't compete without more revenue from the players. (Which very well may be true, but also may very well be intentional by the NHL to give them leverage in lockouts)

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

Looking over the list, if you take away the old guys, can't help but see a trend of which teams have not resigned star players.

Call me a conspiracy nut...but it's awfully convenient that so many small market teams cannot afford to resign their stars a year before a lockout.

Both for the small market teams and the league that will claim small markets can't compete without more revenue from the players. (Which very well may be true, but also may very well be intentional by the NHL to give them leverage in lockouts)

I think you're right.

Some of us have been pointing out the inability of small market teams, to pony up the dough for Huge signing bonuses, in the early years of contracts being signed by the likes of Doughty and Tavares.

As much as some people don't like me saying this, but the small market teams can easily be outgunned by the larger market teams, by exploiting this loophole in the CBA.

Canadian small market team are at an additional disadvantage, when their expenses are almost all in US dollars, while their revenues are all in CDN dollars, when the exchange rate drops. This only get worse when the Salary Cap rises every year. Anyone who has traveled south to Florida, on the regular basis for a number of years knows this to be a fact.

 

[NorthCoast]

I think you're right.

Some of us have been pointing out the inability of small market teams, to pony up the dough for Huge signing bonuses, in the early years of contracts being signed by the likes of Doughty and Tavares.

As much as some people don't like me saying this, but the small market teams can easily be outgunned by the larger market teams, by exploiting this loophole in the CBA.

Canadian small market team are at an additional disadvantage, when their expenses are almost all in US dollars, while their revenues are all in CDN dollars, when the exchange rate drops. This only get worse when the Salary Cap rises every year. Anyone who has traveled south to Florida, on the regular basis for a number of years knows this to be a fact.

Totally off topic...but you have to wonder if this is actually effecting the Ottawa situation.

Toronto, NYR, LA, Boston, Montreal, etc. etc. cannot go the players asking for more money when they are making record profits.

Therefore the NHL needs the Ottawa's, Florida's, Arizona's, Columbus's, etc. to seemingly be losing money in order to ask the players for more of the total share. Of course the players will tell them to fix it through rev share, but if all teams were "profitable" then what leverage would the league have.

Put another way: How much would the large markets lose out in new revenue during the next CBA negotiation if new owners/management came into some of these small markets and made them profitable? (Maybe not wildly profitable. Maybe just break-even as i agree with you that their are some disadvantages that cannot be overcome without greater rev. share, or tightening contract loopholes)


If I was to go full Mel Gibson then I might even suggest the NHL told Melnyk to turn down the spring offer because it would hurt their barganing position for a struggling team to be bought up and invested heavily in...right as they are trying to claim that there is not enough money to be made by small market teams

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

If I was to go full Mel Gibson then I might even suggest the NHL told Melnyk to turn down the spring offer because it would hurt their barganing position for a struggling team to be bought up and invested heavily in...right as they are trying to claim that there is not enough money to be made by small market teams

The NHL is the owners AKA BoGs, they hired Bettman to be commissioner, and he,or anyone else outside of the BoGs have anything to say to an individual owner, on what offer they should or should not take.

Any offer EM gets, is for him to consider or reject.

As far as the struggles the small market teams are having with the rising Salary Cap and the exchange rate and other issues, I'm pretty sure the BoGs/Owners discuss this all the time, as too may weak sisters is not good for the overall health of the league, and that's why I expect a lockout, as soon as September this year.

Also, I don't there are any potential owners, that would come into Ottawa, without doing their due diligence.

"Investing heavily" by a new owner is not going to happen, as they know what revenues the market is capable of generating, and they'd be foolish to squander away their own money, never to see it come back through increased revenues.

I keep going back to this Citizen article, and I know a lot of people want to believe it totally "fake news", but it comes from reliable sources, and reflects on how the Franchise has been run ( on revenues generated) since the owner decided to stop "Floating" the franchise.

Under Eugene Melnyk, Senators have lost $94 million

 

[RaMai]

The NHL is the owners AKA BoGs, they hired Bettman to be commissioner, and he,or anyone else outside of the BoGs have anything to say to an individual owner, on what offer they should or should not take.

Any offer EM gets, is for him to consider or reject.

As far as the struggles the small market teams are having with the rising Salary Cap and the exchange rate and other issues, I'm pretty sure the BoGs/Owners discuss this all the time, as too may weak sisters is not good for the overall health of the league, and that's why I expect a lockout, as soon as September this year.

Also, I don't there are any potential owners, that would come into Ottawa, without doing their due diligence.

"Investing heavily" by a new owner is not going to happen, as they know what revenues the market is capable of generating, and they'd be foolish to squander away their own money, never to see it come back through increased revenues.

I keep going back to this Citizen article, and I know a lot of people want to believe it totally "fake news", but it comes from reliable sources, and reflects on how the Franchise has been run ( on revenues generated) since the owner decided to stop "Floating" the franchise.

Under Eugene Melnyk, Senators have lost $94 million

While also increasing the value of the franchise by quite a higher margin as the money lost.
He simply can't afford owning this team, but he's so stubborn that he is now decreasing the value in a much more rapid pace as it went up...that's why the majority in here says he should sell and better yesterday. You, on the other hand, are looking for excuses and reasoning behind things him and his GM are doing...but there is none except reducing cost by all means.
Once you understand this you don't need to post your "views" in each and every thread! You're welcome

 

[harrisb]

The NHL is the owners AKA BoGs, they hired Bettman to be commissioner, and he,or anyone else outside of the BoGs have anything to say to an individual owner, on what offer they should or should not take.

Any offer EM gets, is for him to consider or reject.

As far as the struggles the small market teams are having with the rising Salary Cap and the exchange rate and other issues, I'm pretty sure the BoGs/Owners discuss this all the time, as too may weak sisters is not good for the overall health of the league, and that's why I expect a lockout, as soon as September this year.

Also, I don't there are any potential owners, that would come into Ottawa, without doing their due diligence.

"Investing heavily" by a new owner is not going to happen, as they know what revenues the market is capable of generating, and they'd be foolish to squander away their own money, never to see it come back through increased revenues.

I keep going back to this Citizen article, and I know a lot of people want to believe it totally "fake news", but it comes from reliable sources, and reflects on how the Franchise has been run ( on revenues generated) since the owner decided to stop "Floating" the franchise.

Under Eugene Melnyk, Senators have lost $94 million

Great article it just misses a couple points. How much has the arena, ticketing, parking and concessions earned during that same period? Any potential new owner will have done this due diligence as the majority of "teams" in the NHL lose money. I'll post this article up for you and it only considers the arena, I posted it before and somehow you must have missed it.

NHL Lockout: Why do billionaires keep buying teams that lose money? (Updated)

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

While also increasing the value of the franchise by quite a higher margin as the money lost.
He simply can't afford owning this team, but he's so stubborn that he is now decreasing the value in a much more rapid pace as it went up...that's why the majority in here says he should sell and better yesterday. You, on the other hand, are looking for excuses and reasoning behind things him and his GM are doing...but there is none except reducing cost by all means.
Once you understand this you don't need to post your "views" in each and every thread! You're welcome

How can you say in your first sentence "While also increasing the value of the franchise", and then in the very next sentence say to opposite, "he is now decreasing the value"??

Which is it?

Is the Franchises' value increasing, or decreasing, it can't be doing both at the same time?


Annual Forbes NHL ranking values Ottawa Senators at $435M, 23rd in the league | Ottawa Business Journal


Also, the majority in here, hate the owner, and that's why they want his sell, as they believe that a sugar daddy owner is going to come in and float the team with his or hers' own money, at no cost to the fans, which at best is a pipe dream.

 

[Tnuoc Alucard]

Great article it just misses a couple points. How much has the arena, ticketing, parking and concessions earned during that same period? Any potential new owner will have done this due diligence as the majority of "teams" in the NHL lose money. I'll post this article up for you and it only considers the arena, I posted it before and somehow you must have missed it.

NHL Lockout: Why do billionaires keep buying teams that lose money? (Updated)

Oh I've not missed it. It too, is a good read.

Yes the CTC is run separately from the Franchise, as are all NHL Franchise and Arenas, and over all the two separate entities combined probably turn a descent profit for EM.

 

[GrantLemons]

How can you say in your first sentence "While also increasing the value of the franchise", and then in the very next sentence say to opposite, "he is now decreasing the value"??

Which is it?

Is the Franchises' value increasing, or decreasing, it can't be doing both at the same time?


Annual Forbes NHL ranking values Ottawa Senators at $435M, 23rd in the league | Ottawa Business Journal


Also, the majority in here, hate the owner, and that's why they want his sell, as they believe that a sugar daddy owner is going to come in and float the team with his or hers' own money, at no cost to the fans, which at best is a pipe dream.

Actually, I believe the majority of fans here would just like an owner to come in and inject some organizational excellence, professionalism and integrity back into the franchise.