Salary Cap: The Salary Cap Thread | Trust me... nothing has changed.

[madinsomniac]

at 4C we had an advantage because Cullen at this stage was a 3c, and his faceoffs were outstanding. Bonino really has only been great at faceoffs one season. his biggest asset was the willingness to clog passing and shot lanes with the IQ to read a play developing well... as for his offense he really isnt the guy who drives offense, he mostly just made heady palys to guys who did more creating than he really did... He was OK at offense.. not a liability, not a star.

Assuming that the ist line is GCS and the second stays HMK, that puts Rust and Hornqvist on the third line... Horny is a netfront crap guy... they just need rebounds and honestly their offense can be defense driven... Rust is a speedster who teamed with a guy like Kegger might be able to strain defensive strategies. even with another slower center he just needs them to get the puck into an area where he can win a foot race to it to create offense...

The 4th line is more problematic... we dont need offense from it, but if its going to be a real defensive line that eats real minutes then:
A.) the center needs to be over 50% on faceoffs
B.) The wingers need to be able to clear the puck out consistantly without icing
C.) they have to be able to sustain a cycle in the ozone and not be trapped perpetually in their own zone
d.) all of them must PK well
E.) they still have to have enough offense that they are a neutral contributer... they canot be a total liability offensively

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

Regardless of what happens with our situation at 3C and 4C, both lines are likely going to be entirely different in terms of how they play and how much they produce. Not necessarily bad, but certainly very different. We're looking at a much more possession-driven 3rd line with Hagelin/Rust-Hornqvist as the wingers, and a much more physical, grindy line for our 4th.

 

[OnMyOwn]

I’m just glad we took advantage of the last two years with our team. Getting 3 cups out of Fleury/Sid/Geno is amazing. I’m excited for this new team, but if we fall short I can accept that.

The 3C situation will impact a lot, IMO.

 

[Andy99]

Calgary needs RWs. We have plenty of that. They also have a young center Jankowski who's played well this preseason. Any chance JR could make a deal there?

 

[cheesedanish87]

I don't think fans realize how bad Nick Bonino was last year, especially in the playoffs.

He had 4 goals and 7 points in 21 playoff games, one of those 4 goals was an empty net goal, another one against Nashville was one of the luckiest goals you will see, it was an own goal for Nashville.

This isn't one of those cases where the box score doesn't tell the true story, almost every shift Bonino had no matter who his line mates were he would be stuck in his own zone.

I'm honestly not sure if the pens win cup if he doesn't get hurt.

 

[Jag68Sid87]

Since we are talking about trying to 3-peat without our No. 3 and 4 centers, here is the center situation for the last team to 3-peat in the NHL:

1980 Islanders
Trottier
Goring
Merrick
Henning
Tambellini
Kaszycki
MacGuigan

1981 Islanders
Trottier
Goring
Tambelllini
Merrick
Henning
Carroll
B. Sutter

1982 Islanders
Trottier
B. Sutter
Goring
Merrick
Carroll

As you can see, the Isles decided to keep the band together for as long as they could. But, there were still changes in the hierarchy at center even while they were repeating as champs. Tambellini was a decent C prospect that they decided to trade, largely because they had Brent Sutter ready to come into the picture. Now, Sutter was so good that he forced everybody else other than Trottier to move down a notch. We won't have that situation, regardless of who JR brings in to replace Bonino. Also, you could make an argument that our 'Tambellini' was Sundqvist, a C prospect that we decided to move to shore up a weakness elsewhere.

So, should we have kept Bonino and Cullen at all cost? I don't think so. Sure, it was easier to keep most of an entire team together in the 1980's, but remember what happened to the Islanders after they lost to the Oilers in 1984? They tried to keep the band together to get back to where they were, instead of initiating changes that may have sped up the retooling process. They even had the luxury of having drafted Pat LaFontaine WHILE they were on top. I suppose that is somewhat similar to Guentzel emerging last season for us, though if Sprong makes an impact on offense as well then the situations will truly be similar (because LaFontaine was a franchise talent).

My main point is this: the Islanders fell HARD because they were not interested in doing any retooling as long as they were on or close to the top. It hurt the franchise. Once they started trading away some of their aging vets like Bob Bourne to LA, John Tonelli to Calgary, etc...it was too late.

I believe this summer will be looked upon as a turning point in the continued success of the Penguins for the next five years. Maybe more. Sure, a LOT depends on the No. 3 center than JR is able to land, and other moves that are made. But the decision not to bring back Bonino and Cullen at all cost was a sage one. As, hopefully, will be the decisions not to re-sign Hornqvist and Cole. We need to keep the chains moving. It is the best way to continue down the path of success once already there. Younger players provide the hunger to keep the success going, and they provide the cap relief needed to add other missing pieces (who will be equally as hungry to win for the first time in many cases).

It's like the wheel that Khaleesi speaks of on GOT...except this wheel needs not to be broken. It should keep spinning for as long as we have a Cup contender.

 

[Pens x]

I think people here will just have to wait until the season starts to realize how badly we need help at center.

I will never understand the whole we can wait until the deadline approach. Games matter just as much in October as they do in April. Yes, you want to go into the playoffs playing great and don't want to peak too early. But a win is just as valuable in October as in April.

I also don't view the trade deadline as the best time to acquire a third line center. The deadline is great for acquiring depth defensemen or finding some vets to replace injured or struggling players. But you shouldn't wait until then to find a respectable center to play with Rust and Hagelin or whoever plays on he line. This should have been addressed at the draft, free agency or during the offseason.

You are not putting your team in the best possible position to compete right now. A third line center should have been addressed months ago.

Bur good for you if you are happy with Carter friggin Rowney and McKegg holding down the fort for 6 months.

Maybe someone here can take over Riley Sheahan's website from last season: http://didrileysheahanscore.com

 

[Jaded-Fan]

Define 'need' help at center before the deadline.

Are the Pens in danger of missing the playoffs if they wait until the deadline to address the issue and go with the team as it currently is constructed?

 

[billybudd]

I don't think fans realize how bad Nick Bonino was last year, especially in the playoffs.

He had 4 goals and 7 points in 21 playoff games, one of those 4 goals was an empty net goal, another one against Nashville was one of the luckiest goals you will see, it was an own goal for Nashville.

This isn't one of those cases where the box score doesn't tell the true story, almost every shift Bonino had no matter who his line mates were he would be stuck in his own zone.

I'm honestly not sure if the pens win cup if he doesn't get hurt.

I think Bones had like a 70% D zone deployment last playoffs. Still ended up a net plus. Even if he wasn't scoring a lot, those are still minutes that someone now needs to play and be able to do at least that.

Not liking people panicking about the situation at center is one thing, but we shouldn't let that mission creep into thinking that Nick Bonino was bad for us.

 

[Riptide]

Colorado fans have the right to be salty, I think. They have a team that's fallen off of a cliff after a promising season a couple years ago, an incompetent GM that's so terrified to do something wrong that he's doing nothing at all, and an extremely valuable asset that's VERY clearly unhappy with the situation and how it's played out.

That's a shitty situation. But, as a lifelong Bills fan, it's tough for me to really feel bad for them.

That promising season was based off of great goaltending and poor percentages. Any real expectation to sustain that was unrealistic. Which of course only makes matters worse. They've had six top 10 picks in the last seven years. You'd think by then, they'd be making some sort of progress. Unfortunately other than their 1st/2nd most of the rest have bombed. It hasn't been since 2009 that they've had successful 2nd+ round picks.

 

[Riptide]

But we will have injuries and we will need a center that can move up. No idea why you are discounting the importance of Cullen because he scored a lot of points when forced up the lineup. That's one of the reasons he was so important.

It's not about discounting him - and I agree we will have injuries, and that that is where we'll really miss him. It's just pointing out the flaw behind the statement "we had a #4C that scores like a #3C" - because we didn't. When he's on the #4th line, he scores like a 4th liner. He was a legitimate #3C - that's what made things so great. But his scoring when he was actually on the 4th line was very meh.

Also, I'd put good money on Rowney not scoring 22 points if he plays exclusively on the 4th line with Reaves and Wilson/Archibald/Kuhnhackl. Remember Rowney played some time on the wing both on the 3rd and 4th line. It's far from a guarantee as a primary center playing 11 minutes a night that he can put up 20+ points

75% of that is ~16 points. I think Rowney can do that. Hitting 20+ might be a little ambitious, but I don't think it's completely out of reach, but I guess we'll see.

 

[Gurglesons]

Reasons why we are going to 3peat:

1. Bonino wasn't even that good. He only scored in March.
2. Rutherford has said he has trade options, he has won back to back cups.
3. J Schultz on the PP.

 

[Peat]

I think people here will just have to wait until the season starts to realize how badly we need help at center.

I will never understand the whole we can wait until the deadline approach. Games matter just as much in October as they do in April. Yes, you want to go into the playoffs playing great and don't want to peak too early. But a win is just as valuable in October as in April.

I also don't view the trade deadline as the best time to acquire a third line center. The deadline is great for acquiring depth defensemen or finding some vets to replace injured or struggling players. But you shouldn't wait until then to find a respectable center to play with Rust and Hagelin or whoever plays on he line. This should have been addressed at the draft, free agency or during the offseason.

You are not putting your team in the best possible position to compete right now. A third line center should have been addressed months ago.

Bur good for you if you are happy with Carter friggin Rowney and McKegg holding down the fort for 6 months.

Maybe someone here can take over Riley Sheahan's website from last season: http://didrileysheahanscore.com

And plenty were saying similar things about not trading MAF last season. I learned a valuable lesson about assuming a GM taking a risky path will definitely lead to the worst case scenario last season.

This team can win games with parts missing from the roster. We won a crap ton of games without Geno and Letang last season. We won a crap ton with MAF in full on meltdown over his last chance saloon to stay at the org - and we won some of those without Sid too. We even won a playoff game without Muray, Letang and Sid, which I didn't think was possible. We won games with a defence half full of AHLers and on and on and on.

Sub-optimal bottom 6 centres looks a lot less on paper than what we've struggled through. Maybe its different when on ice - we will see. But all they've got to do is keep the score score roughly even for 24 minutes of ES ice time and the PK above 80%, and Sid & Geno will win us more than we lose without a rise in duties from last season. All evidence points to us winning more than we lose in this scenario.

Are we in the best possible place to compete now? No, but we're in a good enough one, and the roster will get strengthened at some point.

 

[Allie Kitsune]

I think people here will just have to wait until the season starts to realize how badly we need help at center.

I will never understand the whole we can wait until the deadline approach. Games matter just as much in October as they do in April. Yes, you want to go into the playoffs playing great and don't want to peak too early. But a win is just as valuable in October as in April.

I also don't view the trade deadline as the best time to acquire a third line center. The deadline is great for acquiring depth defensemen or finding some vets to replace injured or struggling players. But you shouldn't wait until then to find a respectable center to play with Rust and Hagelin or whoever plays on he line. This should have been addressed at the draft, free agency or during the offseason.

You are not putting your team in the best possible position to compete right now. A third line center should have been addressed months ago.

Bur good for you if you are happy with Carter friggin Rowney and McKegg holding down the fort for 6 months.

Maybe someone here can take over Riley Sheahan's website from last season: http://didrileysheahanscore.com

If only the HFBoards had complained harder, top-tier 3Cs on favorable deals would have been beating feet to JR's door.

If only we'd listened.

 

[Shady Machine]

I never said he was a laughable 3C, didn't even hint at it, but he's nowhere near the best in the league at what he does either. Middle of the pack depth center that thrived at times because of the matchups he faced and the linemates he was able to play with. That's my two cents on the guy. We will absolutely miss his faceoff ability and play on the PK, But his passing, skating and goal scoring were nothing to lose sleep over. /shrug

I don't think it'll be hard to find a guy who can do what we need from our 3C, but there are obviously guys who will fit better than others. I think all we really need is a guy who can win faceoffs, skate pretty well and get his wingers the puck--doesn't have to be a great passer, just someone who isn't wholly incapable with the puck on his stick. Now, I still think JR and Sully have a couple of guys in mind, several of which we don't have any clue about. I'm almost positive something gets done by Christmas. I'm just hoping it's not going to be a player that costs a ton (unless it's Duchene, but without including Sprong or Guentzel that's likely impossible) and it's a guy that fits our style/system moreso than it's a guy that has a fancy stat line.

As for replacing the combined impact of Bonino and Cullen, I think we do that through wingers and Letang--at least production-wise. A full year of Sid flanked by Guentzel and Sheary is likely going to produce far more than Sid's line did last season before Guentzel came up. Letang's presence, if he doesn't get injured and miss his annual 25 games, should be a huge boost to our production from the blueline as well. We're still going to feel the loss in the faceoff dot, and likely on the PK, but production-wise I don't think it'll be that big of a deal at all.

You are downplaying the importance of centers helping their wingers produce offense. If what you are suggesting is true, we could plug Kessel in with Greg McKegg and not see much of a drop off. That's just not the case.

I also think some posters exaggerate how good our wingers are. It's true we have great depth, but without quality pivots, what's Wilson, Kuhn, Hagelin, etc really going to do? Replacing Bones and Cullen with McKegg and Rowney is going to lead to a ripple effect in lower production for the entire bottom 6. JR has time to replace those holes, but it's not going to be easy or cheap.

 

[vodeni]

I heard there was a good RW on waivers, good possession numbers that can play with geno

 

[Corvidae]

Reasons why we are going to 3peat:

1. Bonino wasn't even that good. He only scored in March.
2. Rutherford has said he has trade options, he has won back to back cups.
3. J Schultz on the PP.

1. He was great in both playoffs runs. I don't care how he was before March. Not at all irreplaceable but Rowney and McKegg aren't even close to him or Cullen. Major downgrade that can't be scoffed at and I'm assuming JR is aware of that and doesn't write off his contributes to the 3rd line like you are here. But...

2. Not banking on a trade that hasn't been made and an inevitable injury to Crosby or Malkin could force his hand into something less than ideal.

3. We'll see how long he stays on the #1 unit. Lepass seems to always find a way back.

 

[xxxxxxxxxxxxxx]

You are downplaying the importance of centers helping their wingers produce offense. If what you are suggesting is true, we could plug Kessel in with Greg McKegg and not see much of a drop off. That's just not the case.

I also think some posters exaggerate how good our wingers are. It's true we have great depth, but without quality pivots, what's Wilson, Kuhn, Hagelin, etc really going to do? Replacing Bones and Cullen with McKegg and Rowney is going to lead to a ripple effect in lower production for the entire bottom 6. JR has time to replace those holes, but it's not going to be easy or cheap.

I've said as much several times throughout different threads, you're arguing with nothing, my man.

And no, McKegg isn't as good as Bonino--at least we don't think so. He could surprise and go way above and beyond what we expect, but I doubt it. We still need a 3C, but people are losing their shit about "Well, where are we gonna find somebody who can fill Bonino's shoes?!" I'm saying that's not very difficult to do, and I'd guess JR has about half a dozen guys on his list, with 3 or 4 of them very likely available. Now, who they might be, I have no idea, but the fact that JR hasn't pulled the trigger on a deal thus far says to me A. he's patient, and he will go after the right guy as opposed to a guy, and B. he's aware of several players that are available, whether publicly or behind the scenes with GMs. As long as we don't fall too far behind in the standings, and I doubt we will with this roster--even without a legitimate 3C or 4C, I'm gonna be patient and defer judgment until I see who JR/Sully target. We saw JR's willingness to go out and get guys to fill holes and address needs over the past few years, so that shouldn't really be a concern. He knows there's a big issue and I'm sure he's on the phone every day checking around and kicking tires. We also saw JR and Sully's willingness to pinpoint guys that aren't a good fit and replace them with guys that are, a la Perron <-> Hagelin. So I think it's sort of a situation where we just have to wait and see who JR goes after, and hope it all works out.

In any event, it's tough to imagine JR and Sully can't/won't be able to find a significant upgrade over McKegg and Rowney.

 

[madinsomniac]

Define 'need' help at center before the deadline.

Are the Pens in danger of missing the playoffs if they wait until the deadline to address the issue and go with the team as it currently is constructed?

You are downplaying the importance of centers helping their wingers produce offense. If what you are suggesting is true, we could plug Kessel in with Greg McKegg and not see much of a drop off. That's just not the case.

I also think some posters exaggerate how good our wingers are. It's true we have great depth, but without quality pivots, what's Wilson, Kuhn, Hagelin, etc really going to do? Replacing Bones and Cullen with McKegg and Rowney is going to lead to a ripple effect in lower production for the entire bottom 6. JR has time to replace those holes, but it's not going to be easy or cheap.

but look at our wingers.... jake looks like a legit playmaker/scorer in his own right... Kessel is one of the best playmaking wingers in the NHL... Hornqvist is a great power forward... Rust and Hagelin are both in the Pascal Dupuis model, that is to say they play defense well and create offense from speed, often insdependant of the Center's contribution... even scott wilson is a notch above a bylsma era 4th liner... probably on par with a 3rd line TK... thats not even factoring in Sprong... or that the team will have Crosby and malkin driving offense for nearly 2/3rds of the game...

 

[Peat]

You are downplaying the importance of centers helping their wingers produce offense. If what you are suggesting is true, we could plug Kessel in with Greg McKegg and not see much of a drop off. That's just not the case.

I also think some posters exaggerate how good our wingers are. It's true we have great depth, but without quality pivots, what's Wilson, Kuhn, Hagelin, etc really going to do? Replacing Bones and Cullen with McKegg and Rowney is going to lead to a ripple effect in lower production for the entire bottom 6. JR has time to replace those holes, but it's not going to be easy or cheap.

Small sample, but Wilson's production with Rowney was equal to his production with Sid.

I'm not saying you're definitely wrong, just I'm not sure you're definitely right, or that if you are right the ripple will be that pronounced.

Although its worth noting that with a loaded top 6 and Reaves adjusting to the system, our bottom 6 wingers definitely aren't as good as they were either.

 

[madinsomniac]

And the ultimate thing to remember is that this team has a limited amount of tradeable resources, a limited amount of cap space, and a long history of injuries that can require the roster to be altered later... couple that with the fact that at the start of the season more teams will be holding on to players they need to contend than later in the season, when it becomes clear injuries or poor talent is going to keep them out of the playoffs and they want to try younger cheaper options out....

blowing assets on a fill in over panic move may mean when a legit great fit is made available, we dont have the assets or roomm to add them, and in a best case scenerio, a Rowney or Kegger shows enough promise at C to be a key part of the trade and lessen the cost for us...

 

[Shady Machine]

I've said as much several times throughout different threads, you're arguing with nothing, my man.

And no, McKegg isn't as good as Bonino--at least we don't think so. He could surprise and go way above and beyond what we expect, but I doubt it. We still need a 3C, but people are losing their shit about "Well, where are we gonna find somebody who can fill Bonino's shoes?!" I'm saying that's not very difficult to do, and I'd guess JR has about half a dozen guys on his list, with 3 or 4 of them very likely available. Now, who they might be, I have no idea, but the fact that JR hasn't pulled the trigger on a deal thus far says to me A. he's patient, and he will go after the right guy as opposed to a guy, and B. he's aware of several players that are available, whether publicly or behind the scenes with GMs. As long as we don't fall too far behind in the standings, and I doubt we will with this roster--even without a legitimate 3C or 4C, I'm gonna be patient and defer judgment until I see who JR/Sully target. We saw JR's willingness to go out and get guys to fill holes and address needs over the past few years, so that shouldn't really be a concern. He knows there's a big issue and I'm sure he's on the phone every day checking around and kicking tires. We also saw JR and Sully's willingness to pinpoint guys that aren't a good fit and replace them with guys that are, a la Perron <-> Hagelin. So I think it's sort of a situation where we just have to wait and see who JR goes after, and hope it all works out.

In any event, it's tough to imagine JR and Sully can't/won't be able to find a significant upgrade over McKegg and Rowney.

How am I arguing with nothing when I'm disagreeing with what you are actually saying?

I believe it is difficult to replace Bonino. Plus, like I said, you have to replace Bonino and Cullen. Yes give it time, but I'm allowed to disagree with you and talk about my disagreement. Also, the people "losing their shit" on this board is like 1 person.

 

[Shady Machine]

Small sample, but Wilson's production with Rowney was equal to his production with Sid.

I'm not saying you're definitely wrong, just I'm not sure you're definitely right, or that if you are right the ripple will be that pronounced.

Although its worth noting that with a loaded top 6 and Reaves adjusting to the system, our bottom 6 wingers definitely aren't as good as they were either.

That's fair and I agree with it. I'm not definitely saying that our wingers will all see declines in production. I'm just trying to provide a counter point to the "our wingers are so good we can have worse centers" argument.

 

[billybudd]

Wait, we can say 'shit' now? I feel like I've seen what's coming on an old episode of South Park.

 

[Gurglesons]

Wait, we can say 'shit' now? I feel like I've seen what's coming on an old episode of South Park.

I want more posts like this.

Can we say f*** too?