OT: The OT Self-Isolation Thread 2: Self Isolate Harder

[timw33]

Internal affairs will investigate and then they will be fired. At least they're not being paid while suspended

The cops should not be investigated by other cops. They should be investigated by a third-party body.

 

[rypper]

The cops should not be investigated by other cops. They should be investigated by a third-party body.

I think that's a big component of what people are looking for in police reform, but for right now it's the process that's in place.

 

[Pip]

this video does a good job explaining the barriers to police accountability

 

[Pastor Of Muppetz]

"Tripped and fell" according to the cops. Not hard to figure out what has been going on for centuries before camera phones.

Agreed..its 2020...a lot of brutality will caught on camera phones (with clear precise quality),CCTV,go- pros' etc...One can only imagine what law enforcement got away with in the 20th century.

 

[xtra]

I think one of the big things that does need to happen is to take money out of politics.

Police unions (and many others) have too much power based on the money they donate.

in fact I would put limitS on donations to:
- no corporation donations
- no union donations
- donations only by individuals
- maximum donations of $2500
- donations tracked to you SIN/Social security number

 

[Nuckles]

When all the cops turn a blind eye to or support the bad apples, they're all bad apples.


Edit: Wasn't talking about every single cop in the world/USA, but I was referring to this unit/department and other instances of things like this happening.

 

[xtra]

When all the cops turn a blind eye to or support the bad apples, they're all bad apples.

Bruh what....

 

[xtra]

Here’s a great article on Dr. Henry and her words “Be calm, be kind, be safe” are some we should all take to heart right now for more than just the virus we are going through


The Top Doctor Who Aced the Coronavirus Test

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

omg it is really happening

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

... continued...







for reference, and responding implicitly to the last bunch of posts about accountability and police policing the police and the impenetrability of police union-led blue shield, minneapolis has a democratic mayor. st paul has a black democratic mayor. the governor is a democrat. the chief of minneapolis pd is a black man who once sued MPD for discrimination, a suit that named the current head of the police union. what have they collectively accomplished? you all saw how MPD has behaved in the last week and a half.

the former minneapolis mayor, who was not blameless, was also a democrat who went out of her way to enact police reform even before the murder of jamar clark. the police union waged war on her and alleged that she was in the pocket of black gangs. the former police chief, who was far from blameless, also attempted to spearhead many reforms, which of course she did being that she presided over two police murders of unarmed black men and finally stepped down after a blonde white woman was shot by an officer.

all to say, MPD

cannot

be

controlled.

the current head of the police union is a known member of a white supremacist organization (he has publicly admitted that he is a member, the organization and he don't recognize that they are a white supremacist organization), we have all known this for at least five years, he was recently RE-elected with a 70% majority.

 

[Mr. Canucklehead]

I’ve given a great deal of thought to the issues specifically pertaining to the police and their uses of force against members of the black community. Obviously it’s a systemic issue and their whole system is in need of a lot of reforms - no easy task. And I certainly don’t want to sit here and say “all police are bad apples”. But as I watch things like what is happening in Buffalo, with all 57 members of the riot unit resigning and the union adamantly stating it stands behind the suspended officers 100%, I’m reminded of a similar situation I had some personal exposure to that gives me pause. I usually search through my own lived experiences to find empathy in situations that I’m far removed from, and this one came to mind. Apologies if it’s a bit of a ramble. This story does have a point.

There was an instance in Northwest BC a few years back where a young man was arrested outside an ice rink. He was brought back to the local detachment where he was taken to a holding room and all the recording devices were turned off. This man - who had no prior criminal record - was subsequently killed, via a gunshot wound to the skull. The police officer who had brought him in claimed that the man had attacked him and, fearing for his life, be shot him. I’m not passing judgement on the situation one way or another, but there was certainly enough information to give someone - anyone - pause: the fact that the police officer had had a run-in with the man before. The fact that the recording devices were shut off. The fact that the police officer claimed he managed to shoot the man in the back of the head while the man was laying on his back.

Was it all possible? Yes. But there was enough information for doubt.

I have family in the RCMP, and at the time, some of them worked in our community of Kitimat. Frequently they would host dinner parties and other RCMP members would attend. I hold a lot of these officers in high regard; I observed a lot of their work in the community both in terms of establishing rapport and performing community service, but also in the somewhat unavoidable “sometimes you see shit go down in a small town” sense. Long and short, I felt these guys and girls were good cops.

At one of these parties, the aforementioned incident was a hot topic of conversation. In several different conversations with several different officers, they all said the same words - the exact same words, and that always stuck with me; “That guy (the officer) is a damn hero.”

So why does this story come to mind for me now? Sure, that officer was later - controversially - exonerated. But at the time, he hadn’t been. But the RCMP closed ranks around him before due process had even been completed and backed up his version of events - even force members from other communities who didn’t know him or the situation at all. Cops have a tough job, and it’s made tougher by the fact that they frequently have to rely on their fellows to have their backs, especially in matters of life and death - And they do the same in return. But I think somewhere along the way that line has become somewhat blurred, and it’s changed merely from having your fellow officers’ backs in bad situations, to potentially looking the other way during dubious ones as well. Which brings us to situations unfolding in the States now. The cops who looked on while Mr. Floyd was suffocated, the cops who resign in solidarity to protect cops who battered an old man, and so on and so forth...this whole situation is exposing an ugly side to policing which isn’t just that bad cops exist, but that good cops enable them by looking the other way or doing nothing.

 

[The Vasili Jerry]

I’ve given a great deal of thought to the issues specifically pertaining to the police and their uses of force against members of the black community. Obviously it’s a systemic issue and their whole system is in need of a lot of reforms - no easy task. And I certainly don’t want to sit here and say “all police are bad apples”. But as I watch things like what is happening in Buffalo, with all 57 members of the riot unit resigning and the union adamantly stating it stands behind the suspended officers 100%, I’m reminded of a similar situation I had some personal exposure to that gives me pause. I usually search through my own lived experiences to find empathy in situations that I’m far removed from, and this one came to mind. Apologies if it’s a bit of a ramble. This story does have a point.

There was an instance in Northwest BC a few years back where a young man was arrested outside an ice rink. He was brought back to the local detachment where he was taken to a holding room and all the recording devices were turned off. This man - who had no prior criminal record - was subsequently killed, via a gunshot wound to the skull. The police officer who had brought him in claimed that the man had attacked him and, fearing for his life, be shot him. I’m not passing judgement on the situation one way or another, but there was certainly enough information to give someone - anyone - pause: the fact that the police officer had had a run-in with the man before. The fact that the recording devices were shut off. The fact that the police officer claimed he managed to shoot the man in the back of the head while the man was laying on his back.

Was it all possible? Yes. But there was enough information for doubt.

I have family in the RCMP, and at the time, some of them worked in our community of Kitimat. Frequently they would host dinner parties and other RCMP members would attend. I hold a lot of these officers in high regard; I observed a lot of their work in the community both in terms of establishing rapport and performing community service, but also in the somewhat unavoidable “sometimes you see shit go down in a small town” sense. Long and short, I felt these guys and girls were good cops.

At one of these parties, the aforementioned incident was a hot topic of conversation. In several different conversations with several different officers, they all said the same words - the exact same words, and that always stuck with me; “That guy (the officer) is a damn hero.”

So why does this story come to mind for me now? Sure, that officer was later - controversially - exonerated. But at the time, he hadn’t been. But the RCMP closed ranks around him before due process had even been completed and backed up his version of events - even force members from other communities who didn’t know him or the situation at all. Cops have a tough job, and it’s made tougher by the fact that they frequently have to rely on their fellows to have their backs, especially in matters of life and death - And they do the same in return. But I think somewhere along the way that line has become somewhat blurred, and it’s changed merely from having your fellow officers’ backs in bad situations, to potentially looking the other way during dubious ones as well. Which brings us to situations unfolding in the States now. The cops who looked on while Mr. Floyd was suffocated, the cops who resign in solidarity to protect cops who battered an old man, and so on and so forth...this whole situation is exposing an ugly side to policing which isn’t just that bad cops exist, but that good cops enable them by looking the other way or doing nothing.

The only thing necessary for the triumph of evil is for good men to do nothing.

 

[VanJack]

Most Canadians have absolutely no idea what happens every day on the mean streets of America. In Chicago alone, one person is shot every 2.59 minutes and a person murdered every 14.38 minutes. You can look it up. And that's only one major U.S. City. Of course since there are now six guns for every man, woman and child in America, I suppose this shouldn't come as a shock.

Into this war zone every day go the police; probably poorly trained; dramatically underpaid and often badly equipped mentally to handle the stress they're facing. In many U.S. cities, it's not uncommon for a front line patrol officer to have to work two jobs to support their families, the pay is so bad.

So they work as mall security; parking lot attendants; construction or whatever else they can find. And often when they report to duty at the Precinct, they're starting their second shift of the day.

The bottom line is this. Until the U.S. gets serious about reforming its tax system and providing counties, towns, cities and states with the resources they need to pay workers like police, firemen, health care professionals; ambulance drivers and other front line workers a livable wage, with better training and resources, then I can't see how anything will really change.

Of course 'reforming the tax system' basically means redistribution of wealth away from the top five percent of Americans. Good luck with that.

 

[MS]

I’ve given a great deal of thought to the issues specifically pertaining to the police and their uses of force against members of the black community. Obviously it’s a systemic issue and their whole system is in need of a lot of reforms - no easy task. And I certainly don’t want to sit here and say “all police are bad apples”. But as I watch things like what is happening in Buffalo, with all 57 members of the riot unit resigning and the union adamantly stating it stands behind the suspended officers 100%, I’m reminded of a similar situation I had some personal exposure to that gives me pause. I usually search through my own lived experiences to find empathy in situations that I’m far removed from, and this one came to mind. Apologies if it’s a bit of a ramble. This story does have a point.

There was an instance in Northwest BC a few years back where a young man was arrested outside an ice rink. He was brought back to the local detachment where he was taken to a holding room and all the recording devices were turned off. This man - who had no prior criminal record - was subsequently killed, via a gunshot wound to the skull. The police officer who had brought him in claimed that the man had attacked him and, fearing for his life, be shot him. I’m not passing judgement on the situation one way or another, but there was certainly enough information to give someone - anyone - pause: the fact that the police officer had had a run-in with the man before. The fact that the recording devices were shut off. The fact that the police officer claimed he managed to shoot the man in the back of the head while the man was laying on his back.

Was it all possible? Yes. But there was enough information for doubt.

I have family in the RCMP, and at the time, some of them worked in our community of Kitimat. Frequently they would host dinner parties and other RCMP members would attend. I hold a lot of these officers in high regard; I observed a lot of their work in the community both in terms of establishing rapport and performing community service, but also in the somewhat unavoidable “sometimes you see shit go down in a small town” sense. Long and short, I felt these guys and girls were good cops.

At one of these parties, the aforementioned incident was a hot topic of conversation. In several different conversations with several different officers, they all said the same words - the exact same words, and that always stuck with me; “That guy (the officer) is a damn hero.”

So why does this story come to mind for me now? Sure, that officer was later - controversially - exonerated. But at the time, he hadn’t been. But the RCMP closed ranks around him before due process had even been completed and backed up his version of events - even force members from other communities who didn’t know him or the situation at all. Cops have a tough job, and it’s made tougher by the fact that they frequently have to rely on their fellows to have their backs, especially in matters of life and death - And they do the same in return. But I think somewhere along the way that line has become somewhat blurred, and it’s changed merely from having your fellow officers’ backs in bad situations, to potentially looking the other way during dubious ones as well. Which brings us to situations unfolding in the States now. The cops who looked on while Mr. Floyd was suffocated, the cops who resign in solidarity to protect cops who battered an old man, and so on and so forth...this whole situation is exposing an ugly side to policing which isn’t just that bad cops exist, but that good cops enable them by looking the other way or doing nothing.

Good post.

One thing I'll add to this is that it's not just a case of a 'few bad apples'. I don't think it's a majority, but just as studies show that a disturbing amount of arsonists seek out jobs in fire protection, there are *a lot* of sociopathic bullies who seek out policework as a career more for the power and badge and gun and the authority they provide than they do to help communities. Like, if you're a dick who wants to have power over people, there is no better career.

And like you say, over decades and generations there has become a culture where you have the backs of your fellow cops *no matter what* and any and all behavior is excused internally. And if 10% of your police force are assholes exploiting their badge and they're always protected by the people around them, you have an absolutely massive problem.

 

[xtra]

https://www.theplayerstribune.com/en-us/articles/mark-fraser-racism-george-floyd-hockey-nhl


this is a great article by mark fraser but the thing that stuck out the most at me was at age 33 A gm wondered if signing a Black man would be bad for team morale. That’s literally last year; that gm needs to be outed and fast

 

[MS]

https://www.theplayerstribune.com/en-us/articles/mark-fraser-racism-george-floyd-hockey-nhl


this is a great article by mark fraser but the thing that stuck out the most at me was at age 33 A gm wondered if signing a Black man would be bad for team morale. That’s literally last year; that gm needs to be outed and fast

View attachment 348954

Fraser was moving between the Czech league and the German league last year, so that was probably a European GM. Not that it makes it any better, but at least it wasn't an NHL GM.

 

[xtra]

Fraser was moving between the Czech league and the German league last year, so that was probably a European GM. Not that it makes it any better, but at least it wasn't an NHL GM.

Thank you for that; I didn’t know that; it doesn’t make it better but you know it won’t change over there

 

[Canuckle1970]

I remember watching the civil rights movement in the US blow wide open on live tv in the 60's. Ugly scenes of water hoses blasting citizens, police dogs snarling and ready to attack, and police batons bashing skulls. Now, it's tear gas and rubber bullets, and incidents of callous disregard for human safety and civil rights.

An African American was elected president - for two terms, no less - only to be followed by a president who joked in front of a police academy that they shouldn't be "too nice" when putting an arrested citizen into a police car. His attitude was no surprise, but the smiles and applause from the faces behind him was disheartening and disturbing.

Still a long way to go. Changing hearts and minds is a major slog. Legislate and enforce civil rights, especially voting rights. I won't give up hope that young people, after having their eyes and ears opened in recent times, but especially these past few days, will make their own decisions about what is fair and just, and vote accordingly.

 

[ProstheticConscience]

Good post.

One thing I'll add to this is that it's not just a case of a 'few bad apples'. I don't think it's a majority, but just as studies show that a disturbing amount of arsonists seek out jobs in fire protection, there are *a lot* of sociopathic bullies who seek out policework as a career more for the power and badge and gun and the authority they provide than they do to help communities. Like, if you're a dick who wants to have power over people, there is no better career.

And like you say, over decades and generations there has become a culture where you have the backs of your fellow cops *no matter what* and any and all behavior is excused internally. And if 10% of your police force are assholes exploiting their badge and they're always protected by the people around them, you have an absolutely massive problem.

You ever see the Stanford Prison Experiment? Very eye-opening expose of human nature.

For those who haven't heard of it, in 1971 researchers at Stanford university were examining why otherwise normal Germans in WWII could send millions of people to the gas chambers, and their hypothesis was that Germans were naturally more obedient to authority figures than other cultures. The set up a fake prison at Stanford and had the student participants draw random lots to be either guards or prisoners. Originally they were going to run it for something like 6 weeks in the US, then go to Germany and run the same thing there. They ended up shutting it down after six days, and it's still taught in the first semester psych and soc classes in any community college or uni in the world.

Turns out just being assigned the roles plays a big part in behaviour. The guards quickly took to authoritarian and even downright sadistic conduct, and the prisoners became submissive and some conspiratorial with the guards.

Recent dramatization: The Stanford Prison Experiment (2015) - IMDb

 

[Aphid Attraction]

You ever see the Stanford Prison Experiment? Very eye-opening expose of human nature.

For those who haven't heard of it, in 1971 researchers at Stanford university were examining why otherwise normal Germans in WWII could send millions of people to the gas chambers, and their hypothesis was that Germans were naturally more obedient to authority figures than other cultures. The set up a fake prison at Stanford and had the student participants draw random lots to be either guards or prisoners. Originally they were going to run it for something like 6 weeks in the US, then go to Germany and run the same thing there. They ended up shutting it down after six days, and it's still taught in the first semester psych and soc classes in any community college or uni in the world.

Turns out just being assigned the roles plays a big part in behaviour. The guards quickly took to authoritarian and even downright sadistic conduct, and the prisoners became submissive and some conspiratorial with the guards.

Recent dramatization: The Stanford Prison Experiment (2015) - IMDb

Yea but they were untrained uni aged students, told to humiliate and abuse (without touching) the "Prisoners" in order to see how far they would go before they broke, (both how far the guards would take it and how far the prisoners could handle).

The study shows that if you take a person and tell them to be abusive it is shockingly easy to get uni students to comply. and why training the best people for the job is important.

Trevor Noah does a good job of showing how much better the police are in SA and how crazy the "policing strategy" is in the USA, in one of his specials.

 

[Hit the post]

Trevor Noah does a good job of showing how much better the police are in SA and how crazy the "policing strategy" is in the USA, in one of his specials.

OT - crazy anti-car jacking device in SA:

 

[rypper]

OT - crazy anti-car jacking device in SA:

I'm sure you don't need me to tell you this but you literally have a video for everything, don't you?

 

[ProstheticConscience]

Yea but they were untrained uni aged students, told to humiliate and abuse (without touching) the "Prisoners" in order to see how far they would go before they broke, (both how far the guards would take it and how far the prisoners could handle).

The study shows that if you take a person and tell them to be abusive it is shockingly easy to get uni students to comply. and why training the best people for the job is important.

Trevor Noah does a good job of showing how much better the police are in SA and how crazy the "policing strategy" is in the USA, in one of his specials.

Well, uni students aren't exactly a singular bunch. Look at the ages of the average cop joining the force in the US. In South Africa of course the cops have undergone a rather major shift in the last few decades; they'd have to, wouldn't they. Ditching apartheid, black police chiefs...the US hasn't had to go through anything like that.

People are much more impressionable that most of us realize. Training is absolutely important. Too bad most of the US cops don't seem to get much of it.

 

[xtra]

Well, uni students aren't exactly a singular bunch. Look at the ages of the average cop joining the force in the US. In South Africa of course the cops have undergone a rather major shift in the last few decades; they'd have to, wouldn't they. Ditching apartheid, black police chiefs...the US hasn't had to go through anything like that.

People are much more impressionable that most of us realize. Training is absolutely important. Too bad most of the US cops don't seem to get much of it.

in Canada isn’t is also just 6 months training to become a police officer?

hair stylist courses are like a year;
dog grooming courses are like 14 weeks;

some how I think we should require at least the training equivalent to a hairstylist For our cops

 

[VanillaCoke]

Its a years long process and continual training to become A cop in Canada, including personality testing, over 10 years history checks and multiple family member interviews.

It's not nearly as complicated in the USA, and maybe even the 6 month figure you refer to. Which is part of the problem, another part is the salaries in America are nearly half that of Canada.