The Official Tank Thread III

[Dotter]

Well Holland certainly won't be getting an elite core any time soon, so he is clearly a good GM.

I look forward to seeing this great GM continue to build rosters that net the Wings the 7-10th overall pick in the draft for the next five years.

I just watched Steve Ott and Brendan Smith shake hands in the ceremonial handshake; two players he traded for picks to help better the team's future.

Saying he isn't doing anything to help plan for the future is a bold face lie.

 

[silkyjohnson50]

No random gratuitous amputation references? I am disappoint!

None of your posts disappoint, 1%er.

He was also working his butt off. Talent means nothing without effort and while the cap would simply just not allow for a team to have 12 superstars on it, you can always create and keep a culture of effort, effort for your team.

Holland also lost players that just simply don't grow on trees. Seguin was a 2nd OA, MacKinnon was 1st. You had Buffalo reshuffle their entire roster and filled it with young talent and still something's missing. Tampa just missed out as well... Mind you, most of HF praised those teams when the moves were made so, maybe, just maybe, for all the debating, the people that are clueless are the ones promoting the get rich quick scheme.

Mind you, this is the first time the team missed the playoffs. We have an almost entirely young roster. You know, 'let the kids play' and when they fall short, well, screw the kids, lets get younger kids and try again.

Look up the history on any NHL teams and show me one that went through a transition phase and was at the top of the standings at the same time. Oh well, just about the only one that comes to mind is Detroit on Hollands watch. Mind you, he had more to work with at the time hence the harder years now.

A lot of ramble.

Who said anything about expecting Detroit staying on top of the standings during the transition?

What I what is for Holland to show any sign that he understands that his team is not good and that they're not going to be suddenly good again overnight. Recognition really. Is that too much to ask? But all we hear from him is "oh, parity" and "if you get into the playoffs you've got a shot" and "are goal is to make the playoffs next season."

That's a plan that I don't agree with and quite frankly find awful and just seemingly delays the process of again building a contender.

 

[Jaromir Blogger]

Look, opinions are like *******s and everything's subjective and all that, but I have such a hard time fathoming how people really, truly believe that Holland is doing a good job as the Wings GM right now. And even when I read the arguments made on here by Holland apologists, it does nothing to lessen my bewilderment. The team has been steadily declining for years and Holland has done nothing to address its true deficiencies. He has handed out lengthy contracts like candy to undeserving players and he made such asinine moves as giving up more for David Legwand than the Kings did for Marian Gaborik in the same year. How do the past few years not reek of failure and ineptitude on his part? I am deeply appreciative of his tenure on the whole, but how one earth can we defend what he's done the past few years? It makes absolutely no sense to me.

 

[Pavels Dog]

The importance attached to 'the streak' was an insult to the intelligence of fans i.e. assuming that the average fan is too dumb to know the difference between a marginal playoff team and a contender.

We're arguing about something here that's nearly universally accepted across sports. If your stars are aging, you can't replace them from within, results are slipping, you're saddled with bad contracts and can't buy yourself out of it with elite FAs (either because you can't afford to or because there's a cap) there's a very straight forward course on how to handle this:

- Shed bad contracts if possible
- Trade players at their peak or past their peak for future assets i.e. prospects and picks
- Accept sucking for a few years
- Focus on acquiring your future core either via the draft or trades for youngsters
- Once you have the core in place, start looking for the players who can compliment it.

That is the rational behavior in this situation and that's not something fans made up, that's how 90% of organizations act in sports.

You have to be more specific. What bad contracts should we have moved, and when? What players in their peak or past their peak should we have moved?

Of course we could have rebuilt way quicker if we for example traded Lidstrom at the deadline in his last season, traded Datsyuk a few years ago, traded Kronwall when he was a legit #1D, traded Nyquist when he scored at a 40 goal pace.. all this could have landed us more picks and a better position in the draft.

But 90% of organizations in sports don't start dismantling their teams if they're in the playoffs. I would really like examples of teams that have consistently made the playoffs only to suddenly start trading away their best players. If 90% of teams work that way, it should be very, very easy to find countless examples of this.

How do the past few years not reek of failure and ineptitude on his part? I am deeply appreciative of his tenure on the whole, but how one earth can we defend what he's done the past few years? It makes absolutely no sense to me.

Because I think the grand total of every bad move he's made adds up to maybe 10% of why we are not currently contending for a cup. And that's me counting some missed draft picks to his list of mistakes, something you can do with literally all GMs , and Holland has made less egregious draft mistakes than most (simply because he's never had the opportunity to miss on a draft pick higher than 15).

90% is the gravitational pull of the salary cap, players getting old and 29 teams trying to get a piece of the success of the #1 most successful by draining talent from all levels of their organization, along with some pure dumb luck such as Franzen's career ending early and Suter's wife being dead set on Minnesota.

And for all his mistakes, we're at least not sitting here with Bogosian instead of Mantha and Myers instead of Larkin or some other combination of horrible outcomes of trades that people on this board once were screaming for. Mistakes that, imo, would have been much worse than overpaying Justin Abdelkader.

 

[Wingsfan 4 life]

I'll be happy if this team can just string two solid 60 minute games together next year. Win or lose.

I can stomach watching a losing cause if the efforts there game to game. My main gripe with this team was the fact that so many times the team only showed up for one or two periods in any given game.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

While it would have been proactive and advisable to get rid of the team's expensive, aging players 3-4 years ago. I don't actually consider his failure to do so a major failure.

The problem was that moves were made to *add* older players. Signing Weiss, Alfredsson, Green, Richardson and trading for Legwand, Cole, Zidlicky. These were bad moves designed to avoid the transition into the rebuilding phase.

This flew in the face of the evidence that (a) the defense never recovered after the departure of its stalwart players and no real fix was available near or mid term and (b) what was left of the forward core was on the way out and had already declined notably. In other words, the team's setup was closer to missing the playoffs than going on a deep run.

I believe Holland understood that but made those moves because preserving the streak had become an end in itself. I think Holland tried to do the impossible - transition with the 'bad years' being merely years of mediocrity rather than years of awfulness.

However, the wish for that to happen probably led to false evaluations regarding the roster and its talent level. This set the Wings back because it caused a significant delay in the transition to rebuilding mode. The coming off-season will indicate whether this delay is now over.

Unfortunately, it appears based on remarks recently made that the folly may still not be over. Unlike others I'd be willing to give Holland a chance to preside over the rebuild, if he is actually willing to perform a rebuild.

 

[Dotter]

And for all his mistakes, we're at least not sitting here with Bogosian instead of Mantha and Myers instead of Larkin or some other combination of horrible outcomes of trades that people on this board once were screaming for. Mistakes that, imo, would have been much worse than overpaying Justin Abdelkader.

Yup. I remember when folks were using this as yet, another, strike against Ken Holland. And look at it now, Kenny was right all along. Sometimes the best trades are the ones you don't make. Most here want trades for the sake of trading no matter how bad it will hurt your club in the long run.

The "writing on the wall" and "seen it coming for 7 years" folks are simply the ones who predict the same thing every year with no real solutions to fix anything. Other than the aforementioned trade proposals that would have further hurt the club; thus demanding our GM to make stupid trades just to have something new and shiny to watch for a few months until they start complaining again.

i.e., the Blashill vs Babcock effect. Everyone was on the Blashill train where ready to cut Babs loose. Not looking like such a good thing now, huh?

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Have an elite core and miss the playoffs 3 times and get one 1st round sweep the past 6 years. ala Steve Yzerman @ Tampa Bay Lightning.

I could see how that looks bad when you don't include the other 3 years where the team made the Cup finals once and conference finals twice.

Show me a GM that has been as long in the league as him and has done as well???

I don't think anyone's arguing that Holland has done poorly during his whole tenure as GM. Or if they are they're crazy.

It's more of a tale of two careers. Holland has been uncharacteristically bad for the last 5 seasons or so, but that doesn't change all he accomplished before that.

 

[Dotter]

I could see how that looks bad when you don't include the other 3 years where the team made the Cup finals once and conference finals twice.

Oh yes, that's right. Their elite core made the finals once... the same year Detroit took them to game#7. A few bounces different and Detroit takes them out.

Now I remember. As stated, howver, they missed the playoffs 3 times and one 1st round sweep the past 6 years. If Detroit have that kind of talent, no way fans find that acceptable what-so-ever. Wings fans will be calling for head's. Starting with Stevie Yzerman. But you know, the grass is greener over on that side of the fence.

"but, but, but they have a better core" - That still can't make the playoffs. Lol

 

[Frk It]

Oh yes, that's right. Their elite core made the finals once... the same year Detroit took them to game#7. A few bounces different and Detroit takes them out.

Now I remember. As stated, howver, they missed the playoffs 3 times and one 1st round sweep the past 6 years. If Detroit have that kind of talent, no way fans find that acceptable what-so-ever. Wings fans will be calling for head's. Starting with Stevie Yzerman. But you know, the grass is greener over on that side of the fence.

"but, but, but they have a better core" - That still can't make the playoffs. Lol

There is an Yzerman thread... you know...

 

[jkutswings]

Yup. I remember when folks were using this as yet, another, strike against Ken Holland. And look at it now, Kenny was right all along. Sometimes the best trades are the ones you don't make. Most here want trades for the sake of trading no matter how bad it will hurt your club in the long run.

The "writing on the wall" and "seen it coming for 7 years" folks are simply the ones who predict the same thing every year with no real solutions to fix anything. Other than the aforementioned trade proposals that would have further hurt the club; thus demanding our GM to make stupid trades just to have something new and shiny to watch for a few months until they start complaining again.

i.e., the Blashill vs Babcock effect. Everyone was on the Blashill train where ready to cut Babs loose. Not looking like such a good thing now, huh?

The fact that something can go wrong, in and of itself, is a pathetic reason to do nothing at all.

Yes, Holland COULD have made one or more awful trades.
Or, he COULD have made one or more good ones.
But he did neither.

And he COULD have either signed guys like Helm and Abdelkader to more frugal deals, or let them walk altogether. But he didn't.

And he COULD have done lots of things differently, both better and worse. But he didn't. And with the reality of what he collectively DID do, the roster is a bottom-10 team for the foreseeable future.

But hey, at least they're...Bad, and not horrendous? Great logic.

 

[Run the Jewels]

The fact that something can go wrong, in and of itself, is a pathetic reason to do nothing at all.

Yes, Holland COULD have made one or more awful trades.
Or, he COULD have made one or more good ones.
But he did neither.

And he COULD have either signed guys like Helm and Abdelkader to more frugal deals, or let them walk altogether. But he didn't.

And he COULD have done lots of things differently, both better and worse. But he didn't. And with the reality of what he collectively DID do, the roster is a bottom-10 team for the foreseeable future.

But hey, at least they're...Bad, and not horrendous? Great logic.

Yeah, if you take Ken Holland at face value that he truly did not want to do a rebuild and preferred to retool on the fly then you have to ask why has Detroit made the fewest trades in the league by a wide margin? Why has drafting and development been so bad?

Of course you take some risks in making trades. How would the "retool" have gone if you pulled the trigger on a trade for Jay Bouwmeester? The actual trade request for Bogosian was Kindl + either Hudler or Filppula. That trade wouldn't have made a difference, it only shows how much the people who defend everything Holland has done try to create a bogeyman of how making any significant trade would cost us Dylan Larkin. Hmm, somehow the Sharks got a Norris trophy winning d-man without having to give up any of their best players.

We're past the point of "retooling on the fly". Holland failed completely by not making trades and by having an awful track record of drafting and developing players. Everyone says we can get a PK Subban in the second round but somehow miss out on the fact we haven't drafted a good d-man since Niklas Kronwall nearly 20 years ago.

Holland says the right things about how he "has to get better". What's going to change?

• Holland will continue to do his thing.
• Jeff Blashill will stay on as coach.
• Scounting department will remain the same.

So basically all that's going to happen is Holland is going to say he needs to change all the while not changing at all. And the people who defend him will always be petrified by change and defend his large scale inaction. Or they'll chime in about a trade that was basically re-arranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

This has happen with successful sports teams across multiple sports so it's pretty easy to see what is going to happen. If we're lucky we'll go through the 10 years of complete ineptitude Michigan football went through before righting the ship. At that point it will have been roughly 20 years since our last championship and if Ken Holalnd is right at that point it will take us another 10 years or so become a competitive team.

30 years of bad to mediocre performance just to assuage people's egos.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

Oh yes, that's right. Their elite core made the finals once... the same year Detroit took them to game#7. A few bounces different and Detroit takes them out.

Now I remember. As stated, howver, they missed the playoffs 3 times and one 1st round sweep the past 6 years. If Detroit have that kind of talent, no way fans find that acceptable what-so-ever. Wings fans will be calling for head's. Starting with Stevie Yzerman. But you know, the grass is greener over on that side of the fence.

"but, but, but they have a better core" - That still can't make the playoffs. Lol

So you're upset about what these fictional Wings fans you've invented might say if this fictional scenario you invented happened where the Wings had the same talent as Tampa Bay?

 

[jkutswings]

So you're upset about what these fictional Wings fans you've invented might say if this fictional scenario you invented happened where the Wings had the same talent as Tampa Bay?

Yeah, while i can understand not liking the team that beat you a couple times in the playoffs, I don't get the bashing on Tampa as an organization...At least during this 5 year stretch that many Wings fans are dissatisfied with.
* Tampa has more playoffs wins
* And has deeper playoff runs
* And better regular season success
* And a more talented roster
* And finished higher in the standings this year
* And is more likely to make the playoffs than Detroit next year

Hate them all you like on the ice, but recently, the franchise has been more successful by pretty much every metric.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Just for quick reference

If we are applauding the trades kh didn't make in hindsight are we going to also look at the draft picks he should have selected instead of passing on that have turned out better?

I mean how do you have selective intuition?

 

[Jaromir Blogger]

I'll be happy if this team can just string two solid 60 minute games together next year. Win or lose.

I can stomach watching a losing cause if the efforts there game to game. My main gripe with this team was the fact that so many times the team only showed up for one or two periods in any given game.

And unfortunately, it's been this way for years. Something has been slowly rotting in this team's collective mentality for the better part of a decade, in my opinion.

As for the notion that Holland has been doing a good job because he didn't trade for Zach Bogosian or whatever, that, once again, does not diminish my bewilderment at his apologists. Could he be doing a worse job? Sure. But does that mean he's doing a good job? No. What has he done to actively improve this team - both for the long- and short-term - the past few years? Very, very little, and the team is steadily getting worse because of it. Parallel to what someone said above, not doing a horrendous job is not the same thing as doing a good job.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

I just watched Steve Ott and Brendan Smith shake hands in the ceremonial handshake; two players he traded for picks to help better the team's future.

Saying he isn't doing anything to help plan for the future is a bold face lie.

It says a lot when your example of "bettering the team's future" includes getting a 6th rounder for a 4th liner on a 1-year 800k contract.

 

[Bench]

It says a lot when your example of "bettering the team's future" includes getting a 6th rounder for a 4th liner on a 1-year 800k contract.

It's sort of like watching those ExxonMobil ads where they talk about how they are building a better future for the planet by putting a woman in a labcoat in front of a wind turbine. Cool.

 

[Red Stanley]

Yeah, if you take Ken Holland at face value that he truly did not want to do a rebuild and preferred to retool on the fly then you have to ask why has Detroit made the fewest trades in the league by a wide margin? Why has drafting and development been so bad?

Of course you take some risks in making trades. How would the "retool" have gone if you pulled the trigger on a trade for Jay Bouwmeester? The actual trade request for Bogosian was Kindl + either Hudler or Filppula. That trade wouldn't have made a difference, it only shows how much the people who defend everything Holland has done try to create a bogeyman of how making any significant trade would cost us Dylan Larkin. Hmm, somehow the Sharks got a Norris trophy winning d-man without having to give up any of their best players.

We're past the point of "retooling on the fly". Holland failed completely by not making trades and by having an awful track record of drafting and developing players. Everyone says we can get a PK Subban in the second round but somehow miss out on the fact we haven't drafted a good d-man since Niklas Kronwall nearly 20 years ago.

Holland says the right things about how he "has to get better". What's going to change?

• Holland will continue to do his thing.
• Jeff Blashill will stay on as coach.
• Scounting department will remain the same.

So basically all that's going to happen is Holland is going to say he needs to change all the while not changing at all. And the people who defend him will always be petrified by change and defend his large scale inaction. Or they'll chime in about a trade that was basically re-arranging deck chairs on the Titanic.

This has happen with successful sports teams across multiple sports so it's pretty easy to see what is going to happen. If we're lucky we'll go through the 10 years of complete ineptitude Michigan football went through before righting the ship. At that point it will have been roughly 20 years since our last championship and if Ken Holalnd is right at that point it will take us another 10 years or so become a competitive team.

30 years of bad to mediocre performance just to assuage people's egos.

Yup, that's why a lot of "discussions" end up being a huge waste of time. Some people just keep on making stuff up. It's so much fun having to constantly answer for a position you never took.

 

[Dotter]

Just for quick reference

If we are applauding the trades kh didn't make in hindsight are we going to also look at the draft picks he should have selected instead of passing on that have turned out better?

I mean how do you have selective intuition?

Since Jim Nil had been under-performing and eventually left for Dallas, Kenny hired Tyler Wright who looks like has been doing a good job with the Larkin and Svech pick...

KH appears to have fixed the problem. That's the GMs job and he executed it.

 

[Dotter]

It says a lot when your example of "bettering the team's future" includes getting a 6th rounder for a 4th liner on a 1-year 800k contract.

Brendan Smith returned a 2nd and 3rd rounder, plus Ott brought back a free 6th round pick. A pick that cost absolutely nothing.

Not sure about you, but I'll take free draft picks all day long.

What's going to change?

• Scounting department will remain the same.

So basically all that's going to happen is Holland is going to say he needs to change all the while not changing at all.

Tyler Wright is what... 2 or 3 years in and is responsible for Larkin and Svech? Jim Nil is out who was by far sub par. I suggested Hakan getting fired, and I got blasted for it. I also suggest trading Lidstrom back in 2010/11 and got blasted for it.

Regardless, take a look around, change is already happening, my friend.

Perhaps not the kind of change you're demanding; the kind of change that can sink a franchise.

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

It's sort of like watching those ExxonMobil ads where they talk about how they are building a better future for the planet by putting a woman in a labcoat in front of a wind turbine. Cool.

Brendan Smith returned a 2nd and 3rd rounder, plus Ott brought back a free 6th round pick. A pick that cost absolutely nothing.

Not sure about you, but I'll take free draft picks all day long.

Well technically he cost a roster spot, but sure I'll take "free" picks all day long. That still doesn't exactly qualify it as a shining example of a GM making strong moves to improve his team.

 

[Dotter]

Well technically he cost a roster spot, but sure I'll take "free" picks all day long. That still doesn't exactly qualify it as a shining example of a GM making strong moves to improve his team.

He played 42 games and nobody here hated him. He was a serviceable bottom line guy that returned a free draft pick. Nosek, his replacement, really isn't anything special. Not sure exactly what you're complaining about. /shrugs

 

[jkutswings]

Since Jim Nil had been under-performing and eventually left for Dallas, Kenny hired Tyler Wright who looks like has been doing a good job with the Larkin and Svech pick...

KH appears to have fixed the problem. That's the GMs job and he executed it.

While we're dealing with a small sample size, let's assume, for the sake of argument, that Tyler Wright is indeed a noticeable upgrade in the scouting/drafting department.

It's good to have that improvement, but it does not (yet) solve the key problem: that the Wings have no core in place, moving forward.

Now, MIGHT guys like Larkin, Svech, etc. one day be high-end core players? Sure. But so far, Larkin looks like a 2C at best, and might even end up a winger, and it's WAY too early to know the ceiling of Svech or any of the other prospects.

So I'm on board with being encouraged by the resume of Tyler Wright thus far, but to say that the problem has been completely fixed is both premature from a drafting standpoint, and ignores the fact that drafting isn't the only facet of the problem (bad contracts, lack of trades, etc.).

 

[Dotter]

While we're dealing with a small sample size, let's assume, for the sake of argument, that Tyler Wright is indeed a noticeable upgrade in the scouting/drafting department.

It's good to have that improvement, but it does not (yet) solve the key problem: that the Wings have no core in place, moving forward.

Now, MIGHT guys like Larkin, Svech, etc. one day be high-end core players? Sure. But so far, Larkin looks like a 2C at best, and might even end up a winger, and it's WAY too early to know the ceiling of Svech or any of the other prospects.

So I'm on board with being encouraged by the resume of Tyler Wright thus far, but to say that the problem has been completely fixed is both premature from a drafting standpoint, and ignores the fact that drafting isn't the only facet of the problem (bad contracts, lack of trades, etc.).

So you're mad none of our scouts can snap their fingers and have an elite core magically appear within a millisecond?

That's not how it works.