The Official Tank Thread III

[The Zetterberg Era]

Having the highest payroll in the NHL and first from last ROW that was bloated by a 9-0 SO record is not helping your or his case. I generally don't like playing the if game but if the Wings SO is 5-4 they would have had the least ROW wins in the NHL that features one of the worst teams in recent history in Colorado.

It's not that Holland is a moron, he doesn't know how to properly manage assests or money in the cap era

That isn't how ROW works... If they go 5-4 in the shootout they have the exact same amout of ROW with four less points.

 

[TatarTangle]

Leading the Wings to being the last team in the league to miss the playoffs, along with making smart moves to become easily the best team of the first 5 years and pioneering things like the long-term contracts that the NHL later very unfairly punished teams for, all points towards Holland understanding how to manage assets and money in the cap era better than most.

Why make things more complicated than they are? We suck because we didn't find a new Lidstrom or Datsyuk in the draft, and partly because we missed out on Suter and lost Babcock; two individuals that would have helped the current roster enormously.
It's not because Holland re-signed Cleary a time or two too many or because he overpaid Ericsson. He didn't choose to sign Abdelkader instead of an elite two-way center. He just chose something over nothing in order to give the team a chance.

Wish I could see it that way but unfortunatley I don't. I see unmovable contracts because Ken Holland either a) doesn't know how to access a players worth or value or b) doesn't know to evaluate talent. All the while having one of the bleakest prospect pools in the NHL largely because of his goal to limp into the playoffs. I get it though, we all know they only make money during the playoffs and he has a boss so he's gotta do what he thinks he's gotta do.

But I have not seen a team win the Stanley Cup in quite some time whose goal is to "just make it," it doesn't work that way. Too many people fall back on "anything can happen" and assume it can "happen" to anyone that makes it. Sorry, I don't see Ottawa winning it. I sure as poop didn't see Calgary winning it. "Anything can happen" is just a moniker for those who can't see the forrest from the trees.

 

[TatarTangle]

That isn't how ROW works... If they go 5-4 in the shootout they have the exact same amout of ROW with four less points.

That's my bad then, I thought SO did count towards it. Being near Colorado in ROW still isn't anything you want to talk about haha

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

That's my bad then, I thought SO did count towards it. Being near Colorado in ROW still isn't anything you want to talk about haha

The shootouts didn't inflate ROW but they did inflate Detroit's position in the standings. If they lose just a couple of those shootouts they drop down below Buffalo.

And they may not be right there with Colorado for ROW but they're still tied with Arizona at 24 for second worst ROW in the league.

so you may have been incorrect about ROW but your point still stands.

 

[Red Stanley]

Yea it's just as likely as billionaire owners who have always been obsessed with winning gave the directive hey let's be mediocre as long as we keep the streak alive and get 2-3 extra home dates even though it's going to cost us the red wings prestige and kill fan interest long term.

What even is this? You've been around since '15. I've been stating for 5 years how he's been doing a bad job.I've called the trajectory of this team since '11. I've called every single bad move he's made. Because I don't put it in a post pointing out your faulty logic means I can't? I love how defensive and offensive you get when you're wrong about something but try to play the let's be respectable card at other times. I don't need a certificate of common sense, it just is. I'm sorry that you lack it,but that isn't my issue.

Probably because the streak is worth more to them than you. Shocker. Easy to sit on your couch and dismiss something someone else has worked hard for.

Yet with all that insight and common sense you're still on your couch and Holland is still GM. Can we blame you personally for the Wings' state of affairs, then? I mean, you're clearly qualified and have known all of this for years, yet done nothing but ***** and moan at us board grunts. How very lazy and irresponsible of you. Kind of like how you keep telling me how wrong I am without actually disproving anything I say. I'm sorry you can't come up with something better than "because reasons".

 

[Heaton]

Probably because the streak is worth more to them than you. Shocker. Easy to sit on your couch and dismiss something someone else has worked hard for.

Translated: they don't give a **** what the fans want. Holland scarified years of rebuilding to get back to actual winning, for padding his stats. This is like a guy scoring 50 goals and the last 15 are empty netters. He technically scored 50, but it's a bit hollow.

Making the playoffs and getting blown out isn't exactly what you should strive for, yet this organization seems to think the fans are excited about being an average team and organization. What the Wings are now from a mentality standpoint is not anywhere close to what they were when they cared about building championship teams.

 

[Red Stanley]

Completely agree.

* I have zero education or experience in the medical field
* I am aware that an otherwise healthy patient had surgery to remove their tonsils
* Said patient emerged from surgery missing an arm

But I'm not qualified to say that something went wrong? C'mon now.

Technically, most of the owners that hire and fire all the general managers in the league don't have any experience at doing their jobs, either, but nobody would take the assertion to that extreme, would they?

If it was just the normal attrition of an unsustainable run of success, nobody could (reasonably) fault the front office. But:
* The team isn't any good, PLUS
* They don't have the assets to significantly improve, PLUS
* They don't have the desire to change direction

That falls on the GM.

Extremely hyperbolic and utterly irrelevant juxtapositions aside, you're not qualified to evaluate his job performance, because you don't know what goes on behind closed doors. Hence the irony in Henkka's post about Buffalo's GM getting fired and people on this board cheering it on. Sometimes stuff doesn't work out despite your best efforts and the good intentions behind them. And, once again, I'm not even arguing that Holland has been a good GM the past 5 years, but he's clearly doing something right to still have a job. It's either that or we can talk about the Swedish mafia and how the RW brass went in for an appendectomy and came out lobotomized

 

[Red Stanley]

Translated: they don't give a **** what the fans want. Holland scarified years of rebuilding to get back to actual winning, for padding his stats. This is like a guy scoring 50 goals and the last 15 are empty netters. He technically scored 50, but it's a bit hollow.

Making the playoffs and getting blown out isn't exactly what you should strive for, yet this organization seems to think the fans are excited about being an average team and organization. What the Wings are now from a mentality standpoint is not anywhere close to what they were when they cared about building championship teams.

Do you claim to be the voice of the people?

 

[Bench]

Do you claim to be the voice of the people?

We did a vote awhile back. 80% of the forum wants to replace Holland as GM. Read any comments section on MLive or similar and it's very critical.

The majority of Wings fans are ready for the next chapter.

 

[Red Stanley]

We did a vote awhile back. 80% of the forum wants to replace Holland as GM. Read any comments section on MLive or similar and it's very critical.

The majority of Wings fans are ready for the next chapter.

Funny you should mention that poll, because I voted to replace him in it. The question, however, was what percentage of the fans wanted the streak to end prior to this season. And what was the number 5 seasons ago? I'm curious if anyone has actual data that goes beyond a forum poll.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Extremely hyperbolic and utterly irrelevant juxtapositions aside, you're not qualified to evaluate his job performance, because you don't know what goes on behind closed doors. Hence the irony in Henkka's post about Buffalo's GM getting fired and people on this board cheering it on. Sometimes stuff doesn't work out despite your best efforts and the good intentions behind them. And, once again, I'm not even arguing that Holland has been a good GM the past 5 years, but he's clearly doing something right to still have a job. It's either that or we can talk about the Swedish mafia and how the RW brass went in for an appendectomy and came out lobotomized

He actually isn't doing anything right.

He still has a job because of what he did 15-20 years ago.

Holland's mantra was "rebuild on the fly." That entails making the playoffs while transitioning from the previous core to the new core. Clearly the Wings don't have a new core. Their old core now consists of Zetterberg. Datsyuk and Lidstrom are gone. Their new core hasn't even been drafted yet and is probably finishing up 6th or 7th grade.

Do the Wings have one of the worst prospects systems in the NHL? Absolutely. I would argue they have the worst prospect pool in the entire league. A quality prospect pool is something that the GM of any team needs to oversee. It's the most important responsibility a GM has.

Free agency/cap management has been a complete dumpster fire. Another area that falls under the responsibility of the GM. When you see a team with zero financial flexibility and several contracts that will never provide any positive value from the moment they were signed, common sense should tell you someone isn't doing a good job.

Spending to the cap every year and buying out one mistake so you have enough money to make another mistake that you will end up regretting fifteen minutes later.

Does that sound like Holland is doing a good job?

But hey guys, Holland's shrewd team building the last five years is the reason the Wings got the funding for Little Caesars Arena.
Too bad that arena won't be seeing any playoff hockey for a very long time.

 

[TheMoreYouKnow]

The importance attached to 'the streak' was an insult to the intelligence of fans i.e. assuming that the average fan is too dumb to know the difference between a marginal playoff team and a contender.

We're arguing about something here that's nearly universally accepted across sports. If your stars are aging, you can't replace them from within, results are slipping, you're saddled with bad contracts and can't buy yourself out of it with elite FAs (either because you can't afford to or because there's a cap) there's a very straight forward course on how to handle this:

- Shed bad contracts if possible
- Trade players at their peak or past their peak for future assets i.e. prospects and picks
- Accept sucking for a few years
- Focus on acquiring your future core either via the draft or trades for youngsters
- Once you have the core in place, start looking for the players who can compliment it.

That is the rational behavior in this situation and that's not something fans made up, that's how 90% of organizations act in sports.

 

[Red Stanley]

He actually isn't doing anything right.

He still has a job because of what he did 15-20 years ago.

Holland's mantra was "rebuild on the fly." That entails making the playoffs while transitioning from the previous core to the new core. Clearly the Wings don't have a new core. Their old core now consists of Zetterberg. Datsyuk and Lidstrom are gone. Their new core hasn't even been drafted yet and is probably finishing up 6th or 7th grade.

Do the Wings have one of the worst prospects systems in the NHL? Absolutely. I would argue they have the worst prospect pool in the entire league. A quality prospect pool is something that the GM of any team needs to oversee. It's the most important responsibility a GM has.

Free agency/cap management has been a complete dumpster fire. Another area that falls under the responsibility of the GM. When you see a team with zero financial flexibility and several contracts that will never provide any positive value from the moment they were signed, common sense should tell you someone isn't doing a good job.

Spending to the cap every year and buying out one mistake so you have enough money to make another mistake that you will end up regretting fifteen minutes later.

Does that sound like Holland is doing a good job?

But hey guys, Holland's shrewd team building the last five years is the reason the Wings got the funding for Little Caesars Arena. lol

He's not doing what YOU want him to do, therefore he's a bad manager. That's the argument that keeps coming up over and over, but not an explanation of why what YOU personally want matters more than what the people who actually run things, invest the big money, earn their livelihoods, play the games and are fans with different opinions want. As for the rest, it leads me to believe you just imagined what I wrote instead of actually reading it.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

He's not doing what YOU want him to do, therefore he's a bad manager. That's the argument that keeps coming up over and over, but not an explanation of why what YOU personally want matters more than what the people who actually run things, invest the big money, earn their livelihoods, play the games and are fans with different opinions want. As for the rest, it leads me to believe you just imagined what I wrote instead of actually reading it.

Nope.

I'm judging him based on exactly what he said he wants to do.

He wants a playoff team while rebuilding. He clearly failed.

He said the draft is the most important place to build. The Wings draft history the past ten years has been downright abysmal.

He will fail next year too. And the year after that, and the year after that.

 

[SpookyTsuki]

The importance attached to 'the streak' was an insult to the intelligence of fans i.e. assuming that the average fan is too dumb to know the difference between a marginal playoff team and a contender.

We're arguing about something here that's nearly universally accepted across sports. If your stars are aging, you can't replace them from within, results are slipping, you're saddled with bad contracts and can't buy yourself out of it with elite FAs (either because you can't afford to or because there's a cap) there's a very straight forward course on how to handle this:

- Shed bad contracts if possible
- Trade players at their peak or past their peak for future assets i.e. prospects and picks
- Accept sucking for a few years
- Focus on acquiring your future core either via the draft or trades for youngsters
- Once you have the core in place, start looking for the players who can compliment it.

That is the rational behavior in this situation and that's not something fans made up, that's how 90% of organizations act in sports.

The casual hockey fans think that any team can win the cup. While they can it's actually a .000001% chance that the worst team can

 

[Red Stanley]

The importance attached to 'the streak' was an insult to the intelligence of fans i.e. assuming that the average fan is too dumb to know the difference between a marginal playoff team and a contender.

We're arguing about something here that's nearly universally accepted across sports. If your stars are aging, you can't replace them from within, results are slipping, you're saddled with bad contracts and can't buy yourself out of it with elite FAs (either because you can't afford to or because there's a cap) there's a very straight forward course on how to handle this:

- Shed bad contracts if possible
- Trade players at their peak or past their peak for future assets i.e. prospects and picks
- Accept sucking for a few years
- Focus on acquiring your future core either via the draft or trades for youngsters
- Once you have the core in place, start looking for the players who can compliment it.

That is the rational behavior in this situation and that's not something fans made up, that's how 90% of organizations act in sports.

We not only don't care about the future, but we're just straight up dumb, eh? Glad 90% of organizations not in the middle of a 25-year playoff streak totally agree with you. You sure told me something I didn't know already, cause I'm so dumb and all.

 

[Ricelund]

What would Holland have to do for some people to consider him bad at his job?

 

[Invictus12]

Translated: they don't give a **** what the fans want. Holland scarified years of rebuilding to get back to actual winning, for padding his stats. This is like a guy scoring 50 goals and the last 15 are empty netters. He technically scored 50, but it's a bit hollow.

Making the playoffs and getting blown out isn't exactly what you should strive for, yet this organization seems to think the fans are excited about being an average team and organization. What the Wings are now from a mentality standpoint is not anywhere close to what they were when they cared about building championship teams.

Corrected: they don't give a **** what SOME of the fans want.

On the other hand, many just as well don't want to burn the house down so they can collect an insurance check. These little rants can go both ways and I understand the concept of shuffling cards and holding on to the best. That said, I feel lucky that I caught interest in hockey as Detroit just reached some of it's most amazing years and I also understand that it didn't just come about in 1 year. It may have started with Yzerman but it took years to also find Fedorov, Lidstrom, etc... They product didn't just unfold in a years time. Oh and once again, for every team that has succeeded so far, (even then, the word success is very loose here) I can show a team that's still struggling. You can't point to success of the philosophy you propose and ignore the failures. Holland is trying a different approach. Time will tell if it works.

 

[Invictus12]

What would Holland have to do for some people to consider him bad at his job?

Show me a GM that has been as long in the league as him and has done as well???

 

[Red Stanley]

Nope.

I'm judging him based on exactly what he said he wants to do.

He wants a playoff team while rebuilding. He clearly failed.

He said the draft is the most important place to build. The Wings draft history the past ten years has been downright abysmal.

He will fail next year too. And the year after that, and the year after that.

And he did exactly what he said he was going to do: try to rebuild on the fly while making the playoffs every year. He fell short on the SECOND on-the-fly rebuild, yet still made the playoffs every year till this one. He still has a job, therefore, his employer thinks he's done OK under the circumstances and trusts him enough with the chanced circumstances. Why is that so difficult to process?

 

[silkyjohnson50]

Show me a GM that has been as long in the league as him and has done as well???

Tiger Woods was once the greatest golfer the world has ever seen. That doesn't mean that he's a very good golfer anymore when he's actually able to play.

Ken Holland was great. Ken Holland has not been great in recent years. In fact, most evidence would point towards him actually being bad.

Do you remember how frustrating it was when Dan Cleary was getting ice time and roles well beyond his actual ability, seemingly because of his past achievements. That's what it's starting to feel like with Holland.

 

[Red Stanley]

Tiger Woods was once the greatest golfer the world has ever seen. That doesn't mean that he's a very good golfer anymore when he's actually able to play.

Ken Holland was great. Ken Holland has not been great in recent years. In fact, most evidence would point towards him actually being bad.

Do you remember how frustrating it was when Dan Cleary was getting ice time and roles well beyond his actual ability, seemingly because of his past achievements. That's what it's starting to feel like with Holland.

No random gratuitous amputation references? I am disappoint!

 

[Dotter]

What would Holland have to do for some people to consider him bad at his job?

Have an elite core and miss the playoffs 3 times and get one 1st round sweep the past 6 years. ala Steve Yzerman @ Tampa Bay Lightning.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

Have an elite core and miss the playoffs 3 times and get one 1st round sweep the past 6 years. ala Steve Yzerman @ Tampa Bay Lightning.

Well Holland certainly won't be getting an elite core any time soon, so he is clearly a good GM.

I look forward to seeing this great GM continue to build rosters that net the Wings the 7-10th overall pick in the draft for the next five years.

 

[Invictus12]

Tiger Woods was once the greatest golfer the world has ever seen. That doesn't mean that he's a very good golfer anymore when he's actually able to play.

Ken Holland was great. Ken Holland has not been great in recent years. In fact, most evidence would point towards him actually being bad.

Do you remember how frustrating it was when Dan Cleary was getting ice time and roles well beyond his actual ability, seemingly because of his past achievements. That's what it's starting to feel like with Holland.

He was also working his butt off. Talent means nothing without effort and while the cap would simply just not allow for a team to have 12 superstars on it, you can always create and keep a culture of effort, effort for your team.

Holland also lost players that just simply don't grow on trees. Seguin was a 2nd OA, MacKinnon was 1st. You had Buffalo reshuffle their entire roster and filled it with young talent and still something's missing. Tampa just missed out as well... Mind you, most of HF praised those teams when the moves were made so, maybe, just maybe, for all the debating, the people that are clueless are the ones promoting the get rich quick scheme.

Mind you, this is the first time the team missed the playoffs. We have an almost entirely young roster. You know, 'let the kids play' and when they fall short, well, screw the kids, lets get younger kids and try again.

Look up the history on any NHL teams and show me one that went through a transition phase and was at the top of the standings at the same time. Oh well, just about the only one that comes to mind is Detroit on Hollands watch. Mind you, he had more to work with at the time hence the harder years now.