The Official Tank Thread III

[Syckle78]

1. To the best of my knowledge, nobody on this forum has argued for a lifetime Holland job security, especially these past couple of years.
2. The Wings haven't "sucked for a bunch of years". This is the first time they haven't made the playoffs during Holland's tenure.
3. None of us are qualified to evaluate his job performance. If you think you are, you certainly can get his job. So why don't you?
4. So if someone disagrees with you, they automatically don't care about the future?
5. I'm not a Holland loyalist. See pt. #4 about assuming anyone who disagrees with you and calls you out is whatever you don't like.

Given the sensitivity of this outlet, I'd simply tell you to work on your debate skills and reading comprehension.

Number 3 is hogwash. Someone can be capable of determining if someone is failing at their job without being qualified to do said job. Often time it just takes a bit of common sense.

 

[Reddwit]

Number 3 is hogwash. Someone can be capable of determining if someone is failing at their job without being qualified to do said job. Often time it just takes a bit of common sense.

Agreed. Way to eliminate all credibility with statements like "if you think you are [qualified], you certainly can get his job."

Haha yeahhhh.... Am I addressing the allegations of a 12 year-old or something??? No post-pubescent human who lives in the real world could possibly think that statement is true.

 

[Red Stanley]

And that his directives were just prolong the streak is nothing but a fan theory with nothing to back it up. It's something that somehow spawned into a fact passed around here because it was repeated enough.

You're right. A future HoF GM who suddenly turned into a total moron is much more likely, because it's a fan theory repeated ad nauseam by no less than 10 people on this board.

Number 3 is hogwash. Someone can be capable of determining if someone is failing at their job without being qualified to do said job. Often time it just takes a bit of common sense.

You said he's been failing at his job for at least 5 years now, yet can't even explain how other than "my common sense tells me so". Well, my common sense tells me your common sense is full of crap, which disqualifies you by default. Don't you wish you could wave some sort of official certificate of qualification in my face that proves me wrong just about now?

 

[jkutswings]

Five years is a long time for ineptitude without consequence in sports. Definitely not fitting of your laughing and snark.

It actually happens to be the average tenure of a general manager in the NHL.

So, if a given GM has a pristine track record for 2-3 tenures worth of retention, then has a mediocre to lousy track record for 1 tenure worth of retention, I don't see the problem with calling a spade a spade, and saying that he either needs to do significantly better, or needs to go.

 

[The Zermanator]

You said he's been failing at his job for at least 5 years now, yet can't even explain how other than "my common sense tells me so". Well, my common sense tells me your common sense is full of crap, which disqualifies you by default. Don't you wish you could wave some sort of official certificate of qualification in my face that proves me wrong just about now?

Over the last 5 years, how has he succeeded at his job? You think we just started sucking out of the blue for no reason? This is the result of his job performance over the last several years.

 

[Jaromir Blogger]

Over the last 5 years, how has he succeeded at his job? You think we just started sucking out of the blue for no reason? This is the result of his job performance over the last several years.

Exactly. The Wings have been steadily declining for longer than the past five years. If that isn't good evidence that he isn't succeeding, then I don't know what is.

 

[Syckle78]

You're right. A future HoF GM who suddenly turned into a total moron is much more likely, because it's a fan theory repeated ad nauseam by no less than 10 people on this board.



You said he's been failing at his job for at least 5 years now, yet can't even explain how other than "my common sense tells me so". Well, my common sense tells me your common sense is full of crap, which disqualifies you by default. Don't you wish you could wave some sort of official certificate of qualification in my face that proves me wrong just about now?

Yea it's just as likely as billionaire owners who have always been obsessed with winning gave the directive hey let's be mediocre as long as we keep the streak alive and get 2-3 extra home dates even though it's going to cost us the red wings prestige and kill fan interest long term.

What even is this? You've been around since '15. I've been stating for 5 years how he's been doing a bad job.I've called the trajectory of this team since '11. I've called every single bad move he's made. Because I don't put it in a post pointing out your faulty logic means I can't? I love how defensive and offensive you get when you're wrong about something but try to play the let's be respectable card at other times. I don't need a certificate of common sense, it just is. I'm sorry that you lack it,but that isn't my issue.

 

[jkutswings]

Over the last 5 years, how has he succeeded at his job? You think we just started sucking out of the blue for no reason? This is the result of his job performance over the last several years.

Completely agree.

* I have zero education or experience in the medical field
* I am aware that an otherwise healthy patient had surgery to remove their tonsils
* Said patient emerged from surgery missing an arm

But I'm not qualified to say that something went wrong? C'mon now.

Technically, most of the owners that hire and fire all the general managers in the league don't have any experience at doing their jobs, either, but nobody would take the assertion to that extreme, would they?

If it was just the normal attrition of an unsustainable run of success, nobody could (reasonably) fault the front office. But:
* The team isn't any good, PLUS
* They don't have the assets to significantly improve, PLUS
* They don't have the desire to change direction

That falls on the GM.

 

[HockeyinHD]

Over the last 5 years, how has he succeeded at his job?

You mean other than the team raking in high 8 to low 9 figures of pure cash profit and high 9 figures of increased franchise value?

You think we just started sucking out of the blue for no reason? This is the result of his job performance over the last several years.

Question: How many NHL GMs have made the playoffs 4 of the past 5 years?

* They don't have the desire to change direction

That falls on the GM.

Why do you think it is the GMs job to set the direction for the entire franchise?

Five years is a long time for ineptitude without consequence in sports.

It's not even a long time in Detroit, much less a long time in hockey, much less a long time in sports.

I mean, dear God. Don't even include baseball or football or basketball. Just look at hockey. A huge majority of the NHL has gone a decade plus over stretches inclusive of Detroit's playoff streak without meeting your standard for consequence... and that even sets aside the notion making the playoffs itself is inconsequential, which is silly.

 

[Pavels Dog]

And that his directives were just prolong the streak is nothing but a fan theory with nothing to back it up. It's something that somehow spawned into a fact passed around here because it was repeated enough.

We don't know the exact directives and I doubt they were "make the playoffs, absolutely do NOTHING more", but the fact Holland is still GM and got a vote of confidence as late as after this season indicates he has not been failing in their eyes. Or at least not been failing in the way that puts his job on the line. But if the results keep getting worse or stay this bad, and it doesn't look as though he's able to draft and develop good players then he'll start being under more pressure. I'd say he can afford another season out of the playoffs before the team needs to start showing some improvements.

Exactly. The Wings have been steadily declining for longer than the past five years. If that isn't good evidence that he isn't succeeding, then I don't know what is.

When you're on the top, there's not many directions to go but down. Only a moronic ownership would expect the GM of a team to keep the team a contender for all eternity. Time and the salary cap starts hurting all teams eventually. In the last 5+ years, Holland has been tasked with finding a replacement for the best d-man of all time, a replacement for a fantastic top-pairing RHD, a replacement for the best possession forward of the modern era, a replacement for possibly the best headcoach in the world... not to mention the overall brain drain that has taken place because every team has wanted a piece of the Wings success and have gone after people in our management or coaching.

It's just my opinion but to me it would like a ridiculous overreaction to fire the GM after he misses the playoffs for the first time in his career. It was going to happen eventually no matter who the GM was.

 

[Frk It]

We made the playoffs 4 of the last 5 years because of draft picks made in 1998, 1999, and 2000.

When you look at the moves made over the last 5 years, strictly the moves, there are causes for concern.

 

[Ricelund]

You mean other than the team raking in high 8 to low 9 figures of pure cash profit and high 9 figures of increased franchise value?

Did Holland take Tom Wilson's job?

 

[WingedWheel1987]

You think Holland is gonna enter the HHOF because he made Ilitch money?

Holland's status as one of the best GM's in hockey was based on his ability to generate on ice success. Attempting to move the goal post where now his success is determined by revenue generated is so moronic it makes my head hurt.

Ken Holland has been a bad GM since the end of the 2010-2011 season.

The proof is on the ice.

Horrendous roster that is also the most expensive roster in the league.

Farm system with zero talent.

That is the textbook definition of what bad GM's do. Attempting to argue otherwise is idiotic.

2-3 years from now this roster will still be a dumpster fire. We gonna still pretend Holland is good at his job then too?

 

[Dotter]

And that his directives were just prolong the streak is nothing but a fan theory with nothing to back it up. It's something that somehow spawned into a fact passed around here because it was repeated enough.

There was a Q&A article posted here in the last year that said as much. It hinted that Ilitches wanted to make the playoffs and how much they valued the streak. I believe it was a direct quote from Ken Holland him self.

Clearly if he is lying to the media and passing blame on to his bosses, no doubt he'd quickly get fired. He's not fired.

 

[WingedWheel1987]

There was a Q&A article posted here in the last year that said as much. It hinted that Ilitches wanted to make the playoffs and how much they valued the streak. I believe it was a direct quote from Ken Holland him self.

Clearly if he is lying to the media and passing blame on to his bosses, no doubt he'd quickly get fired. He's not fired.

Holland values the streak just as much as the Ilitches. They both share the blame in that regard.

However Mike Ilitch wasn't the one handing out indefensible contracts to Justin Abdelkader, Darren Helm, and at the same time continuing to let the prospects rot in the AHL for washed up veteran #232323.

 

[jkutswings]

You mean other than the team raking in high 8 to low 9 figures of pure cash profit and high 9 figures of increased franchise value?

The majority of NHL teams make good money. If that's suddenly the top priority of the GM, perhaps he should move to a different position in the organization.

Question: How many NHL GMs have made the playoffs 4 of the past 5 years?

Few to none. But the team has also done little to nothing with those appearances, and I wasn't aware that continuing the participation awards was sufficient for a satisfactory job by the front office.

Why do you think it is the GMs job to set the direction for the entire franchise?

I don't. But this particular franchise, over the last decade, has set this particular GM as the face of the organization, so he gets there lion's share of the criticism when things don't go well, although there's plenty of blame to go around.

I's not even a long time in Detroit, much less a long time in hockey, much less a long time in sports.

I mean, dear God. Don't even include baseball or football or basketball. Just look at hockey. A huge majority of the NHL has gone a decade plus over stretches inclusive of Detroit's playoff streak without meeting your standard for consequence... and that even sets aside the notion making the playoffs itself is inconsequential, which is silly.

And, speaking only for myself, I think it's ridiculous to take a sports franchise that has annihilated any previous standard of success for a quarter century...And then, once times start to get tough, to suddenly lower those standards to the median of either the rest of the NHL, or sports in general.

The Detroit Red Wings have been the epitome of excellence for longer than some franchises have existed. And yet now, rather than accept that the window has closed, and eagerly try to rebuild the next window of championship contention, the organization is selling a bill of goods that it's too hard to be any more than average.

That's crappy management.

In the words of The Shawshank Redemption, "Get busy living, or get busy dying."

 

[Dotter]

Holland values the streak just as much as the Ilitches. They both share the blame in that regard.

However Mike Ilitch wasn't the one handing out indefensible contracts to Justin Abdelkader, Darren Helm, and at the same time continuing to let the prospects rot in the AHL for washed up veteran #232323.

re: Abdelkader. chris kunitz, andrew shaw, chris kreider all make similar money.

He probably valued the streak and making the playoffs because he values his job. Best way to **** off your boss is to the exact opposite of what he asked you to do and disregard the chain of command.

In what planet would any professional sport team want to celebrate the opening of a state of the art billion dollar arena by picking top 10 in the weakest draft class in a hundred years? Clearly tanking this season was not, should not have been their focus. Injuries obvously hampered their chances.

At the end of the day, there's a bigger picture. Billionairs aren't billionairs because they're tunnel vision and have the attention span of a dog. That state of the art arena brings an entirely new element into the future of the Wings beyond the past few years and the next few years.

 

[Syckle78]

There was a Q&A article posted here in the last year that said as much. It hinted that Ilitches wanted to make the playoffs and how much they valued the streak. I believe it was a direct quote from Ken Holland him self.

Clearly if he is lying to the media and passing blame on to his bosses, no doubt he'd quickly get fired. He's not fired.

Source?

 

[Lazlo Hollyfeld]

You mean other than the team raking in high 8 to low 9 figures of pure cash profit and high 9 figures of increased franchise value?

Using franchise value to defend Holland's actions? Oh man that's a new one.

It should go without saying that the General Manager's job is to put together a competitive team, not try to increase franchise value, which is affected by factors like the value of the dollar, television contracts, the amount of debt a franchise has. All of which Holland has zero control over.

Why do you think it is the GMs job to set the direction for the entire franchise?

So it's not the GM's job to set the direction for the entire franchise yet you simultaneously credit the GM for increasing the franchise value?

The job of the GM is to oversee "all aspects of Detroit's hockey operations including all matters relating to player personnel, development, contract negotiations and player movements." Obviously the owners play a role, but the GM's main job is to set the direction for the team on the ice.

 

[Unfriendly Ghost]

You mean other than the team raking in high 8 to low 9 figures of pure cash profit and high 9 figures of increased franchise value?

But what about the opportunity cost of not building a contender? Sure, you make more money now, but you make much less money later. It's an investment. Not investing because it means you have more money right now is a terrible financial decision.

You think the franchise value is going to keep going up when it becomes clear that Chris Ilitch is the new "Dollar" Bill Wirtz?

 

[Ricelund]

But what about the opportunity cost of not building a contender? Sure, you make more money now, but you make much less money later. It's an investment. Not investing because it means you have more money right now is a terrible financial decision.

Not to mention that Holland's thrown money away on several players that contributed little or nothing to the team's success.

 

[Zetterberg4Captain]

Their really is no argument against any GM in any sport that makes his team even a dollar of revenue if that's the basis for how you judge their performance.

 

[The Zetterberg Era]

Their really is no argument against any GM in any sport that makes his team even a dollar of revenue if that's the basis for how you judge their performance.

My guess is ownership doesn't agree. I know it is fun to overlook that, but putting out a team that wins and makes money is a big deal to the Owner of the team.

It is not a lone factor, it is actually way more prevalent in soccer abroad though. But for instance the face of that would be Wenger at Arsenal. Do you realize his boss owns several NA teams, do you think doesn't care about the bottom line just here?

 

[TatarTangle]

You're right. A future HoF GM who suddenly turned into a total moron is much more likely, because it's a fan theory repeated ad nauseam by no less than 10 people on this board.

Having the highest payroll in the NHL and first from last ROW that was bloated by a 9-0 SO record is not helping your or his case. I generally don't like playing the if game but if the Wings SO is 5-4 they would have had the least ROW wins in the NHL that features one of the worst teams in recent history in Colorado.

It's not that Holland is a moron, he doesn't know how to properly manage assests or money in the cap era

 

[Pavels Dog]

It's not that Holland is a moron, he doesn't know how to properly manage assests or money in the cap era

Leading the Wings to being the last team in the league to miss the playoffs, along with making smart moves to become easily the best team of the first 5 years and pioneering things like the long-term contracts that the NHL later very unfairly punished teams for, all points towards Holland understanding how to manage assets and money in the cap era better than most.

Why make things more complicated than they are? We suck because we didn't find a new Lidstrom or Datsyuk in the draft, and partly because we missed out on Suter and lost Babcock; two individuals that would have helped the current roster enormously.
It's not because Holland re-signed Cleary a time or two too many or because he overpaid Ericsson. He didn't choose to sign Abdelkader instead of an elite two-way center. He just chose something over nothing in order to give the team a chance.