The NHL has a BIG problem (Cap Circumvention via LTIR)

[GermanSpitfire]

 

[Rydev]

Simply put, Cap Circumvention via LTIR

Teams like Tampa Bay and Toronto are using LTIR to bolster their rosters for the playoffs.

Kucherov being out the entire season, giving the Lightning $10.5M in extra cap relief throughout the season. But as soon as the playoffs come around, he can be activated off LTIR without a hiccup and Tampa will be playing in the playoffs with a roster that could have a cap hit north of $95M.

Toronto acquired Riley Nash from Columbus and it won’t count for a cent on their cap since he’s on LTIR and won’t be activated until the playoffs where there is no salary cap.

The Salary cap was created to give smaller market teams a fighting chance against the larger spending, big markets of the NHL. But with this LTIR loophole, it allows teams like Toronto and Tampa Bay extra cap space since in the playoffs, there is no salary cap.


There is a simple solution to this problem, have a salary cap in the playoffs. it would completely negate this loophole.

Theres no such thing as a salary cap that
has no loopholes. Not one sport has one. This is the least of the NHLs worries at the moment

 

[GermanSpitfire]

Theres no such thing as a salary cap that
has no loopholes. Not one sport has one. This is the least of the NHLs worries at the moment

If you go to the post DIRECTLY before this one. You can see that is not the case and is why the thread was bumped.

 

[Rydev]

If you go to the post DIRECTLY before this one. You can see that is not the case and is why the thread was bumped.

theyve talked about it multiple other times and decided against it

What are you gonna do when this loophole is closed and another opens? You just gonna keep changing the rules the moment one teams capitalizes on something?

Every team in the league has the ability to LTIR before the playoffs. Just like every team has the ability to restructure contracts for ridiculous cap savings in the NFL. Just like every team has the ability to abuse the Larry Bird exception in the NBA.

Plugging this LTIR hole requires another rule which opens another hole. Its an endless cycle.. you do get that right?

It just seems like this loophole is extra bad because two contending teams have done it in two years.. yet it has been possible for as long as the cap has existed. So in reality it isnt as big an issue as you think

 

[Golden_Jet]

Maybe if they make the it so the team has to be cap compliant for a playoff game, with the 20 players on the ice, vs the 23 man roster.

 

[JadedLeaf]

theyve talked about it multiple other times and decided against it

What are you gonna do when this loophole is closed and another opens? You just gonna keep changing the rules the moment one teams capitalizes on something?

Every team in the league has the ability to LTIR before the playoffs. Just like every team has the ability to restructure contracts for ridiculous cap savings in the NFL. Just like every team has the ability to abuse the Larry Bird exception in the NBA.

Plugging this LTIR hole requires another rule which opens another hole. Its an endless cycle.. you do get that right?

It just seems like this loophole is extra bad because two contending teams have done it in two years.. yet it has been possible for as long as the cap has existed. So in reality it isnt as big an issue as you think

How does making salary cap count in the playoffs open a bunch of other loopholes? You seem to under the impression that a convoluted set of rules need to be created to close this one.. you don't, just extend the cap so it count during the post season as well. Or that players not on the roster after a certain point in the season aren't eligible for playoffs. But that wouldn't be needed if teams still had to be cap compliant during the post season.

 

[Dr Pepper]

How does making salary cap count in the playoffs open a bunch of other loopholes? You seem to under the impression that a convoluted set of rules need to be created to close this one.. you don't, just extend the cap so it count during the post season as well. Or that players not on the roster after a certain point in the season aren't eligible for playoffs. But that wouldn't be needed if teams still had to be cap compliant during the post season.

I remember during the Nylander negotiations, I think it was December 1st being the deadline for all pending RFAs to have a contract in place or else they couldn't play at all that season.

That made sense to me.

I figure the league would do well to have something like that in place for LTIR cases, so that they aren't sitting out all year and the team reaps cap benefits before magically jumping up and ready to go for Game 1

 

[Rydev]

How does making salary cap count in the playoffs open a bunch of other loopholes? You seem to under the impression that a convoluted set of rules need to be created to close this one.. you don't, just extend the cap so it count during the post season as well. Or that players not on the roster after a certain point in the season aren't eligible for playoffs. But that wouldn't be needed if teams still had to be cap compliant during the post season.

You cant simply extend the cap to the playoffs and things just work out; dont you think theyd have done that by now if that was the case?

Hypothetical ; If the Oilers lost McDavid today to injuryand the deadline hadnt passed yet, LTIR, and he cant return until Round 2; how would they ever compete? They cant replace any of McDavid's 13m because he comes back to a playoff salary cap, and you cant send most of your best, expendable players down because of waivers.

So with your logic the trade deadlines would be useless and contending teams would physically not be able to add talent because of fear of injuries involving LTIR.

What would you rather; teams have more good players in the playoffs or less? Because if you add a hard playoff cap, teams will NOT load up for cup runs at deadlines and it will overall be a worse product (for the fans)

 

[joestevens29]

Would be a nice step if they at least made the 20 man active rosters for the game cap compliant.

 

[JadedLeaf]

You cant simply extend the cap to the playoffs and things just work out; dont you think theyd have done that by now if that was the case?

Hypothetical ; If the Oilers lost McDavid today to injuryand the deadline hadnt passed yet, LTIR, and he cant return until Round 2; how would they ever compete? They cant replace any of McDavid's 13m because he comes back to a playoff salary cap, and you cant send most of your best, expendable players down because of waivers.

So with your logic the trade deadlines would be useless and contending teams would physically not be able to add talent because of fear of injuries involving LTIR.

What would you rather; teams have more good players in the playoffs or less? Because if you add a hard playoff cap, teams will NOT load up for cup runs at deadlines and it will overall be a worse product (for the fans)

You put a cap on the team that's iced for the playoffs. Not the 23 man roster. I'd rather teams not openly say they're going to sit players until the playoffs. I couldnt care less if that means a team won't be able to sit good players only to miraculously be better after game 82. Teams can trade for players all they want but when the Injured player comes back someone needs to sit.

 

[JadedLeaf]

I remember during the Nylander negotiations, I think it was December 1st being the deadline for all pending RFAs to have a contract in place or else they couldn't play at all that season.

That made sense to me.

I figure the league would do well to have something like that in place for LTIR cases, so that they aren't sitting out all year and the team reaps cap benefits before magically jumping up and ready to go for Game 1

Does baseball not have a playoff roster that has to be set after a certain point? I could be wrong but I thought if you weren't on the roster by a certain date you couldn't play.

 

[Rydev]

You put a cap on the team that's iced for the playoffs. Not the 23 man roster. I'd rather teams not openly say they're going to sit players until the playoffs. I couldnt care less if that means a team won't be able to sit good players only to miraculously be better after game 82. Teams can trade for players all they want but when the Injured player comes back someone needs to sit.

I can understand the appeal of an on-ice cap but thats iffy because players salary caps have daily values that slightly fluctuate IIRC, so itd be a MUCH more complicated process mathematically to come up with a solution to.

Ive been of the mindset that teams should permanently have a 2-3 person taxi, whether all season or just in the playoffs. This way you can still commit to a 23-man playoff salary cap while allowing teams to shuffle one or two guys in and out based on matchups, while not preventing teams from acquiring better talent due to fear of injuries affecting playoff rosters

 

[Chips]

Don’t get too excited yet. This isn’t the first time they’ve talked about it. There’s risk of whatever decision the make f***ing over other teams who need LTIR in some form or another; and also many other teams will want the flexibility themselves one day


It’s like when Tampa complained after the Hawks did it… they were one of the only teams, maybe the only team who wanted to bring it up and nobody cared or they couldn’t find a solution people liked.. then Tampa did it.

I’m pretty sure one or two teams wanting to talk about it is enough for them all to discuss it. They all talk periodically anyway.

Could be 10 teams are seriously upset, or two teams are and 8 just kinda want to see what’s possible, etc

 

[joestevens29]

Don’t get too excited yet. This isn’t the first time they’ve talked about it. There’s risk of whatever decision the make f***ing over other teams who need LTIR in some form or another; and also many other teams will want the flexibility themselves one day


It’s like when Tampa complained after the Hawks did it… they were one of the only teams, maybe the only team who wanted to bring it up and nobody cared or they couldn’t find a solution people liked.. then Tampa did it.

I’m pretty sure one or two teams wanting to talk about it is enough for them all to discuss it. They all talk periodically anyway.

Could be 10 teams are seriously upset, or two teams are and 8 just kinda want to see what’s possible, etc

I don't even know what the heck these guys talk about. Seems like it's just a getaway to a warm climate every time they meet up.

 

[Chips]

I don't even know what the heck these guys talk about. Seems like it's just a getaway to a warm climate every time they meet up.

I mean there’s been goalie pad changes and a number of rule changes that have worked really well to increase scoring m by making players safer in the slot and at the net front

Goalie pads; slashes to hands is important to call, cross checks this year have all opened up scoring just from recent years

The irritating offsides review; the subsequent tightening of offsides review rules later; 5 min penalty reviews

 

[Daz28]

You cant simply extend the cap to the playoffs and things just work out; dont you think theyd have done that by now if that was the case?

Hypothetical ; If the Oilers lost McDavid today to injuryand the deadline hadnt passed yet, LTIR, and he cant return until Round 2; how would they ever compete? They cant replace any of McDavid's 13m because he comes back to a playoff salary cap, and you cant send most of your best, expendable players down because of waivers.

So with your logic the trade deadlines would be useless and contending teams would physically not be able to add talent because of fear of injuries involving LTIR.

What would you rather; teams have more good players in the playoffs or less? Because if you add a hard playoff cap, teams will NOT load up for cup runs at deadlines and it will overall be a worse product (for the fans)

You're trying to have your cake and eat it too. The salary cap exists, and players get injured. That's all just reality, and part of the game. If the player on LTIR comes back for the playoffs, you simply have to sit the players you acquired to get by while he was out. That's still a rule that's completely fair to all team equally. If there's too many good players sitting during the playoffs, that's a result of dilution, not the closing of salary cap loopholes. The actual catalyst to most of this problem is that it's questionable that a guy gets 'healthy' at exactly the right time.

 

[Rydev]

Don’t get too excited yet. This isn’t the first time they’ve talked about it. There’s risk of whatever decision the make f***ing over other teams who need LTIR in some form or another; and also many other teams will want the flexibility themselves one day


It’s like when Tampa complained after the Hawks did it… they were one of the only teams, maybe the only team who wanted to bring it up and nobody cared or they couldn’t find a solution people liked.. then Tampa did it.

I’m pretty sure one or two teams wanting to talk about it is enough for them all to discuss it. They all talk periodically anyway.

Could be 10 teams are seriously upset, or two teams are and 8 just kinda want to see what’s possible, etc

Thats my stance on it

i dont think it needs changing unless youre revamping the way cap is structured in the playoffs and/or add a 2-3 taxi for playoffs

contenders wouldnt be able to afford going for extra depth pieces or even adding other legit talent because of fear of their stars getting hurt; which do YOU want in the playoffs? That LHD and RW you added for 5m, or your star #1 center whos paid a ton and now doesnt fit because he got hurt after the playoffs

My vote? I want all three of them, just not on the ice at rhe same time. Instill a 23-man roster with a 2-3 person taxi and I think you have your solution

 

[Rydev]

You're trying to have your cake and eat it too. The salary cap exists, and players get injured. That's all just reality, and part of the game. If the player on LTIR comes back for the playoffs, you simply have to sit the players you acquired to get by while he was out. That's still a rule that's completely fair to all team equally. If there's too many good players sitting during the playoffs, that's a result of dilution, not the closing of salary cap loopholes. The actual catalyst to most of this problem is that it's questionable that a guy gets 'healthy' at exactly the right time.

So then have fun with deadlines where no teams add players and never get within ~5m of the cap for fear of their stars getting hurt

Its unrealistic and very unlikely

 

[Daz28]

So then have fun with deadlines where no teams add players and never get within ~5m of the cap for fear of their stars getting hurt

Its unrealistic and very unlikely

No, you want your star back for the playoffs AND additional players.

 

[Rydev]

No, you want your star back for the playoffs AND additional players.

Or if you read my few first posts before yours just now, youd see I want them all as a part of the team; not part of the 23-man roster the cap counts toward

If you think the NHL is gonna make it so less stars play in the playoffs, you're sorely mistaken and its why they havent done it yet

 

[ottawa]

I can understand the appeal of an on-ice cap but thats iffy because players salary caps have daily values that slightly fluctuate IIRC, so itd be a MUCH more complicated process mathematically to come up with a solution to.

Ive been of the mindset that teams should permanently have a 2-3 person taxi, whether all season or just in the playoffs. This way you can still commit to a 23-man playoff salary cap while allowing teams to shuffle one or two guys in and out based on matchups, while not preventing teams from acquiring better talent due to fear of injuries affecting playoff rosters

I can do the math for every team if the league give me season tickets...I'm by no means a genius, but at the risk of sounding arrogant, I did pass my high school math classes.

 

[Daz28]

Or if you read my few first posts before yours just now, youd see I want them all as a part of the team; not part of the 23-man roster the cap counts toward

If you think the NHL is gonna make it so less stars play in the playoffs, you're sorely mistaken and its why they havent done it yet

Then the league wants its cake and to eat it too. They want more teams, and also more good players playing when the playoffs come along, so they create "bonus cap space" if you're lucky enough to have injuries? Even if you're pro-LTIR, you have to admit it's absurd on its face.

 

[Statto]

Maybe if they make the it so the team has to be cap compliant for a playoff game, with the 20 players on the ice, vs the 23 man roster.

That’s the proposal in the article and what I suggested in one of the other threads we’ve had about this in recent memory

 

[Rydev]

You’re overcomplicating this so much that you’re outsmarting yourself.

How so?

Why would teams get near the cap if they would lose their stars for doing so, if an untimely injury were to occur?

 

[uncleben]

Player has to be off the LTIR on the last day of the season to be eligible for the first round?

IDK. I do feel closing this "loophole" really just creates more questions and concerns