The NHL has a BIG problem (Cap Circumvention via LTIR)

[Daz28]

NGL I'd be pretty pissed as Colorado or Calgary if Vegas gets in a WC and Stone, Pacioretty, Lehner, and Martinez all are activated for game 1. It's basically a totally different team.

If they hadn't botched the Dadonov deal, the only guy they'd really be sandbagging on is Stone, but it is still a $9.5m sand bag.

 

[Oilslick941611]

Don’t get too excited yet. This isn’t the first time they’ve talked about it. There’s risk of whatever decision the make f***ing over other teams who need LTIR in some form or another; and also many other teams will want the flexibility themselves one day


It’s like when Tampa complained after the Hawks did it… they were one of the only teams, maybe the only team who wanted to bring it up and nobody cared or they couldn’t find a solution people liked.. then Tampa did it.

I’m pretty sure one or two teams wanting to talk about it is enough for them all to discuss it. They all talk periodically anyway.

Could be 10 teams are seriously upset, or two teams are and 8 just kinda want to see what’s possible, etc

The problem is now there 2 high profile cases of it in back to back years and its an open secret for cap circumvention. As always, loopholes are found and then exploited and then closed. I am 100% for the closing of the this loophole and the Cap should apply for the playoffs as well. its stupid that it doesn't.

 

[Suntouchable13]

The problem is now there 2 high profile cases of it in back to back years and its an open secret for cap circumvention. As always, loopholes are found and then exploited and then closed. I am 100% for the closing of the this loophole and the Cap should apply for the playoffs as well. its stupid that it doesn't.

The only reason there is cap in the first place is not for competitiveness, it is for ensuring a 50-50 revenue split. I just don't see the big outrage here. I really don't. Nobody is going to sit out all 82 to circumvent the cap. Even what Vegas is doing now, they might miss the playoffs altogether. I don't see the outrage.

 

[Oilslick941611]

The only reason there is cap in the first place is not for competitiveness, it is for ensuring a 50-50 revenue split. I just don't see the big outrage here. I really don't. Nobody is going to sit out all 82 to circumvent the cap. Even what Vegas is doing now, they might miss the playoffs altogether. I don't see the outrage.

you don't see the outrage that Vegas basically has 2 healthy players on LTIR?( or will soon) If a dr deems a player healthy and they are on LTIR they need to be removed from LTIR immediately and placed on the healthy roster for the GM to deal with.

 

[Tripledeke333]

All teams can use this "loop hole". TB is the 21st most valuable team according to Forbes with a 470 million dollar valuation.

A team has to have a guy get injured to use this loophole. It is kind of BS that Kucherov’s injury vastly improved the chances that they win the cup. Also BS that Riley Nash’s value increases because of injury.

 

[JadedLeaf]

This is honestly a don’t hate the player hate the game situation, kuch wasn’t the first and won’t be the last to do that. I agree though teams should have a certain cap in the playoffs say 10 mill more than regular season for the cases when a star does get a season long injury and they need to bolster the roster to even Attempt to make the playoffs

I really don't hate Kuch and I wasn't one of those fans that shit on Tampa for it happening. But It's moved passed that point where more teams are thinking about using it at a legit strategy and that's what I don't like. If anything Tampa was ahead of the game when it came to figuring it out. They didn't really break any rules but now that it's exposed as a strategy the league needs to address it is all. My opinion anyway.

 

[Divine]

That doesn’t matter

if your 23 man is under the cap, the 20 you dress is under the cap.

what I’ve said in other threads is— player must play a regular season game to be playoff eligible in either AHL ot NHL ( rehab AHL games don’t count). You can’t have a player spend entire year on LTIR then return for playoffs

Yeah, I get the 20 men roster would be under the cap.

The point is if you do suffer an injury, you're not forced to play shorthanded the whole regular season and try to make the playoffs. You still have some sort of advantage as you can switch out players who are underperforming with your new addition, but it's more logical to allow it that way than if a player gets injured and they can't even add because what do they do when the player heals and they're not cap compliant for the playoffs? Which is why you only count active roster in the playoffs, it at least gives the team an opportunity to be cap compliant in some way if they did suffer an injury to a player.

Your method still only fits a small percentage of the loophole, what about players who have 'nagging injuries' like Stone, or if Eichel is LTIRed until the playoffs. Teams can just wait until game 2 of the regular season and then LTIR the guy.

 

[DownIsTheNewUp]

Player has to be off the LTIR on the last day of the season to be eligible for the first round?

IDK. I do feel closing this "loophole" really just creates more questions and concerns

Honestly, that's probably the only "solution" I've heard that makes sense. Everything else seems to come with some pretty serious unintended consequences.

 

[Luigi Habs]

I'm not sure it's a real issue honestly. Tampa did it and it worked because they have a deep team.

Vegas tried this year and it's biting them in the ass.

 

[archanfelnsx]

The only reason there is cap in the first place is not for competitiveness, it is for ensuring a 50-50 revenue split. I just don't see the big outrage here. I really don't. Nobody is going to sit out all 82 to circumvent the cap. Even what Vegas is doing now, they might miss the playoffs altogether. I don't see the outrage.

Tampa did it with Kucherov so they could re-sign Cirell, Sergachev, and Cernak. They didn’t wanna lose any of them and they couldn’t offload Tyler Johnson or Ondrej Palat. Tampa took a risk and held out Kucherov hoping the rest of the team could get them to the playoffs. Brisebois was made out to be some genius while all he did was use this “plan” and it ended up panning out in the end. Behind closed doors the NHL investigated the injury claim and had to know of how convenient the timing was that he was available for Game 1 of the playoffs and probably told Tampa Bay not to do it again. Hopefully the league does something about it in the offseason because other teams are using a similar tactic now and its making a mockery of the hard cap.

Make the LTIR rules more strict:

- Have a salary cap for the playoffs, otherwise in the future teams will stash players on LTIR until the playoffs.
- If you want cap relief for LTIR in case you truly suffered a season ending injury, then make them ineligible for the remainder of the regular season and playoffs.
- Allow teams to use their scratched players during the same game in case of in-game injuries. The scratched players still count towards your cap during the season so you should be able to use them. For example if a defenseman gets injured in a game in the first period and you have another defenseman scratched in your lineup that second defenseman should be able to come in the second period and the injured defenseman cannot return to the game.

 

[pcruz]

The only reason there is cap in the first place is not for competitiveness, it is for ensuring a 50-50 revenue split. I just don't see the big outrage here. I really don't. Nobody is going to sit out all 82 to circumvent the cap. Even what Vegas is doing now, they might miss the playoffs altogether. I don't see the outrage.

This isn't true at all. If it were true, the NHL would have adopted a soft cap and penalized teams for exceeding that value, adding the penalties to the HRR.
A team like Toronto would gladly pay a hefty fee to exceed the cap.

This would very obviously increase HRR which would be split between the PA and the owners.

What a hard cap does, is artificially level out the playing field and, along with the 3 point games, creates a false sense of competitiveness for teams later into the season. This keeps more buts in the seats of the teams chasing playoff spots longer, therefore increasing HRR.

If we were to eliminate the "loser point", or go to a 3-2-1-0 point system, more teams would be eliminated from contention earlier, therefore lowering the interest level of the fans of those teams, lowering attendance, and ultimately lowering HRR.
Allowing some teams to exceed the cap would have similar effects, but with drastically less impact on the HRR.

However, I would bet that the smart people at the NHL have crunched the numbers and polled franchises to gauge interest in paying fees to exceed the cap, and those revenues would most likely be lesser than that of gate and merchandise for the higher number of teams who are artificially competitive later into the season.

 

[Rec T]

How about we just put in a rule that any player that's on LTIR during the last two weeks of the season is ineligible for the first round of the playoffs (in case he miraculously recovers...). That would force teams to become cap compliant for a few games with the roster that they want to take into the playoffs (& good luck trying to get a star player to agree to sit for a round of the playoffs).

I'm sure there would still be cap shenanigans, but if would be greatly reduced ... sadly we will miss out on seeing the medical miracles that happen these days right at the end of the season

 

[pcruz]

How about we just put in a rule that any player that's on LTIR during the last two weeks of the season is ineligible for the first round of the playoffs (in case he miraculously recovers...). That would force teams to become cap compliant for a few games with the roster that they want to take into the playoffs (& good luck trying to get a star player to agree to sit for a round of the playoffs).

I'm sure there would still be cap shenanigans, but if would be greatly reduced ... sadly we will miss out on seeing the medical miracles that happen these days right at the end of the season

How about, doing away with a hard cap system, introducing a hefty luxury tax system over a soft-cap, and all players' salaries used during the season, injured or not, are counted towards the cap for the whole season.
So that if a team uses 30 total players during a season due to injuries or whatever, the full cap hit for all 30 players is added together to calculate the team's total salary expenditure.

 

[SensontheRush]

The only reason there is cap in the first place is not for competitiveness, it is for ensuring a 50-50 revenue split. I just don't see the big outrage here. I really don't. Nobody is going to sit out all 82 to circumvent the cap. Even what Vegas is doing now, they might miss the playoffs altogether. I don't see the outrage.

You wouldn't say that this is a WAY oversimplified explanation? Nor is it true that there is an "actual" 50-50 revenue split.

 

[TaLoN]

you don't see the outrage that Vegas basically has 2 healthy players on LTIR?( or will soon) If a dr deems a player healthy and they are on LTIR they need to be removed from LTIR immediately and placed on the healthy roster for the GM to deal with.

If they are deemed healthy, and they are taken off LTIR, then Vegas has to put players on waivers to clear the space. These are not healthy players sitting on LTIR.

 

[Oilslick941611]

If they are deemed healthy, and they are taken off LTIR, then Vegas has to put players on waivers to clear the space. These are not healthy players sitting on LTIR.

you don't see the outrage that Vegas basically has 2 healthy players on LTIR?( or will soon) If a dr deems a player healthy and they are on LTIR they need to be removed from LTIR immediately and placed on the healthy roster for the GM to deal with. _ they are nearing ready. They were dumping cap and gaining more LTIR. I bet you they are ready or damn near close.

 

[TaLoN]

you don't see the outrage that Vegas basically has 2 healthy players on LTIR?

They aren't healthy.

 

[GreenLine]

You cant simply extend the cap to the playoffs and things just work out; dont you think theyd have done that by now if that was the case?

Hypothetical ; If the Oilers lost McDavid today to injuryand the deadline hadnt passed yet, LTIR, and he cant return until Round 2; how would they ever compete? They cant replace any of McDavid's 13m because he comes back to a playoff salary cap, and you cant send most of your best, expendable players down because of waivers.

So with your logic the trade deadlines would be useless and contending teams would physically not be able to add talent because of fear of injuries involving LTIR.

What would you rather; teams have more good players in the playoffs or less? Because if you add a hard playoff cap, teams will NOT load up for cup runs at deadlines and it will overall be a worse product (for the fans)

Why is it "worse" if teams can't abuse the cap and load up at the deadline?

I really don't care whether or not teams acquire anyone at the deadline. The playoffs would be just as good either way.

 

[SensontheRush]

If they are deemed healthy, and they are taken off LTIR, then Vegas has to put players on waivers to clear the space. These are not healthy players sitting on LTIR.

I'm sure there are "unhealthier", more banged-up players currently playing shifts as we speak than the ones on Vegas' LTIR.

 

[TaLoN]

I'm sure there are "unhealthier", more banged-up players currently playing shifts as we speak than the ones on Vegas' LTIR.

You've never dealt with a back injury before, have you?

 

[SensontheRush]

You've never dealt with a back injury before, have you?

You've never familiarized yourself with the fact that players have been playing through injuries for the literal entire history of the league, have you?

 

[pcruz]

You've never familiarized yourself with the fact that players have been playing through injuries for the literal entire history of the league, have you?

Doesn't really matter.
The player can't play until the team doctors and team declare him medically fit to play.

In the event that a player wants to return to action (against the team's wishes), while dealing with a lingering issue, the team doctors could declare him medically fit while detailing in the evaluation that the player has lingering medical issues that could, possibly, pose a risk to the player's health. The team would then have grounds to not allow the player to be rostered, as their primary incentive is the player's health, not statistical acumen.

Ta-da, player can't play.
Player would likely file a grievance with the NHLPA, and it would get dragged on for some time, all of which he would remain ineligible to play.

 

[Rec T]

How about, doing away with a hard cap system, introducing a hefty luxury tax system over a soft-cap, and all players' salaries used during the season, injured or not, are counted towards the cap for the whole season.
So that if a team uses 30 total players during a season due to injuries or whatever, the full cap hit for all 30 players is added together to calculate the team's total salary expenditure.

I guess you could do it that way. The problem is that it's numbers based which is far easier to manipulate than my way which is based on the calendar. (if a player is on LTIR during 'this' timeframe then he can't play during 'that' timeframe...).

If I'm reading your proposal right, you would total up all the players salaries (would it be pro-rated by games played or just total contract amounts? What if they trade for a player, would the amount paid by another team count against them? Perhaps those on LTIR would count as half a game for calculation purposes) & then compare it to some league wide 'total cap' figure. If it's over that amount then they pay a luxury tax? (and I'd hope that it's a steeply graduated curve the higher you get above the cap limit). Who does that tax get paid to? The other teams/owners as team 'x' is essentially buying a competitive advantage? It's not a horrible idea but I could easily see it essentially splitting the NHL into two leagues, the haves & the have nots. If you're a fan of a small market team now, are you going to continue to buy tickets to see them knowing that they're at a competitive/financial disadvantage & are starting way behind the power curve. Sure there are Cinderella stories, but they would probably be the exception rather than the rule. How many fans will stay with the game if over the next 15 years the same, say three teams, win The Cup 12 of those years?

I don't know, something to kick around anyway.

 

[SensontheRush]

Doesn't really matter.
The player can't play until the team doctors and team declare him medically fit to play.

In the event that a player wants to return to action (against the team's wishes), while dealing with a lingering issue, the team doctors could declare him medically fit while detailing in the evaluation that the player has lingering medical issues that could, possibly, pose a risk to the player's health. The team would then have grounds to not allow the player to be rostered, as their primary incentive is the player's health, not statistical acumen.

Ta-da, player can't play.
Player would likely file a grievance with the NHLPA, and it would get dragged on for some time, all of which he would remain ineligible to play.

I'm not debating how silly the system is, I'm just stating that there are guys that are more banged up on the ice, playing games right now, than the guys on Vegas' LTIR.

And yeh "primary incentive is the player's health, not statistical acumen".... open your eyes man. I don't blame you for dreaming though!

 

[Menzinger]

Why is it "worse" if teams can't abuse the cap and load up at the deadline?

I really don't care whether or not teams acquire anyone at the deadline. The playoffs would be just as good either way.

Because trades are fun, and strict adherence to a salary cap isn't.

This league is first and foremost about entertainment.

Player has to be off the LTIR on the last day of the season to be eligible for the first round?

IDK. I do feel closing this "loophole" really just creates more questions and concerns

Thing is. I think back to the 2020 playoffs where Stamkos comes off being injured since February and scores a goal on his first shot of his first game back during the during the cup finals. Was a great hockey moment, probably the most memorable single play of that entire post season. This would have stopped that from happening.

I think your last point is spot on . Almost all of these "solutions" just cause other questions/issues