The NHL has a BIG problem (Cap Circumvention via LTIR)

[WarriorofTime]

Nothing they did was against the rules, at all.
Teams should have just accepted it and beat the Devils in the playoffs

They did, or did I miss the Devils winning any Cups post-salary cap era?

 

[KevFu]

If you want to stop Tampa Bay, BEAT them in the Playoffs. Complaining about the rules is loser talk IMO

Like I said, it doesn't CHANGE anything for the playoffs.

I realize it looks bad, the guy with the Islanders logo talking about it after the matchups were just set for the semis. But this topic was talked about at the start of the playoffs (when I didn't expect the Islanders to get this far, and no one really expected Montreal to juggle the seeding so that TB/NYI would meet before the Finals).

It got bumped because of Hamilton's comments, not because of the Islanders.

 

[Leaf Fans]

With Dougie Hamilton’s comments today, how are we feeling about this?

They no we should tell Dougie that there is not salary cap in the playoffs.

 

[GermanSpitfire]

They did, or did I miss the Devils winning any Cups post-salary cap era?

They weren’t allowed to since the NHL stepped in on that Kovalchuk contract and took away a devils 1st rounder.

Why should Tampa be allowed to go over the cap by as much as 18M when teams like Vancouver (or in the future Nashville) aren’t able to afford a guy like Toffoli because of the Luongo cap recapture penalty that was enforced to prevent teams from circumventing the salary cap?

Nothing Tampa did was illegal, and there shouldn’t be any repercussions from what they’re doing but the NHL needs to do something to prevent this from happening further.

 

[WarriorofTime]

They weren’t allowed to since the NHL stepped in on that Kovalchuk contract and took away a devils 1st rounder.

Why should Tampa be allowed to go over the cap by as much as 18M when teams like Vancouver (or in the future Nashville) aren’t able to afford a guy like Toffoli because of the Luongo cap recapture penalty that was enforced to prevent teams from circumventing the salary cap?

Nothing Tampa did was illegal, and there shouldn’t be any repercussions from what they’re doing but the NHL needs to do something to prevent this from happening further.

The NHL warned Lou Lam not to do it and he did it anways, don't feel a lot of sympathy there

 

[Captain97]

See, that's why there are people upset. The rules DON'T allow it. There's a rule that specifically says you can't do what Tampa did with Kucherov, because it is cap circumvention. It's just totally impossible to enforce. No one is going to NOT BELIEVE a player or medical staff when they say "He needs more time." Even though everyone knew.

His timeline was always "Game one of the playoffs" and yet when the NHL pushed the playoffs back after he took off the no-contact jersey, his timeline moved with it. Cooper's saying "oh, he's wearing that jersey instead of the no contact jersey because no one likes the color."

It was all one giant wink.

It is what it is. Doesn't change anything for the playoffs. But probably should cost them a draft pick.

Yeah it's a loophole that is basically based on trusting teams not to do it, thus the NHL allowed it. In my mind you can't be mad at Tampa for doing rather the NHL for not preventing it.

 

[WarriorofTime]

Yeah it's a loophole that is basically based on trusting teams not to do it, thus the NHL allowed it. In my mind you can't be mad at Tampa for doing rather the NHL for not preventing it.

You act like Kucherov wasn't actually recovering from surgery? He wasn't on Robidas Island

 

[Lunatik]

Why does it need to be revamped? They'd just carry the cap that was in effect until the end of the season, into the playoffs. If an injured player who makes $5 million returns, then you must remove $5 million in order to add him. Just like when they return during the season, you must remove player(s) to activate someone.

Because the CBA states the cap is calculated daily based on the number of days in the regular season, this is for 3 reasons, 1) players are no longer being paid in the playoffs, their contract is based on regular season games, 2) it creates a uniform season length for every team, and 3) we don't know how long the playoffs will be every year. The only way adding the playoffs work is if you change the cap so it is no longer calculated daily, you would have to change it so teams aren't allowed to exceed a total annual cap hit at any particular point in the season. This would also kill the trade deadline as teams wouldn't be accruing space any more.

This is an issue once every 5-6 years, it's not worth re-writing the CBA because every few years a good player returns from injury at the right time.

 

[Saucechucker99]

He was injured, he took time to get back. And they looked at where they were in the standings and thanks to CBJ's bad season, they basically kept him out of the lineup an extra month to go buy more players. And that is what has people upset. He was in practice, wearing a contact jersey for like 6 weeks before he was activated. I know guys need time to go from "I can be on the ice in practice" to "I'm 100% to play an NHL game" but it was blatantly obvious what they were doing.

THAT is really the issue. I have no problem with the rules being what they are, because 99% of teams would be screwed and miss the playoffs if they lost elite talent like Kucherov and Stamkos for the regular season.

Like, the Islanders were 4th and 3rd in the NHL in points at the time of Adam Pelech's injury last year and Anders Lee's injury this year. They finished 11th and 12th in the NHL in points, and if there were 82-game seasons each time, them getting into the playoffs might have been dicey both years (2020 more than this year).

And the Islanders are using Boychuk on LTIR instead of retirement for the cap space benefit.

Yeah I see what your saying and agree with it. There is utility in the rule under the proper circumstances and when it is used in good faith, but it is a slippery slope to frustration. Particularly for other fans (and players) that feel their teams become a victim of it. Like you mention, Kucherov practicing 6 weeks full contact and then stepping in the first playoff game and playing to the level he has been from then on is suspect, or at least I think it is. That said, I am not a doctor, trainer, or a person has had to go through that kind of surgery.

The answer is probably not in changing the rule, but ensuring the proper checks and balances are in place to ensure the integrity of the rule. I know I have seen people say that the NHL could have investigated it if they felt it was cap circumvention. However, does the NHL really have the authority to force a player to submit to an independent medical examination in those circumstances? I really don't know the answer and would be interested in what it is but I would be surprised if the NHLPA didn't have something to say about it. Further, any opinion the NHL does obtain from a doctor would without a doubt be countered by team doctor opinions and independent specialists the team chooses to retain. I guess the NHL may have the power to deem them ineligible for the LTIR if they could get the evidence, but I think getting conclusive evidence would be the hard, if not impossible part.

Anyway, I agree the rule is useful when used properly, but I think the enforcement or checks and balances surrounding it may be lacking. Then again I guess we don't know what happens behind the scenes and for all we know the NHL did investigate.

 

[Sky04]

See, that's why there are people upset. The rules DON'T allow it. There's a rule that specifically says you can't do what Tampa did with Kucherov, because it is cap circumvention. It's just totally impossible to enforce. No one is going to NOT BELIEVE a player or medical staff when they say "He needs more time." Even though everyone knew.

His timeline was always "Game one of the playoffs" and yet when the NHL pushed the playoffs back after he took off the no-contact jersey, his timeline moved with it. Cooper's saying "oh, he's wearing that jersey instead of the no contact jersey because no one likes the color."

It was all one giant wink.

It is what it is. Doesn't change anything for the playoffs. But probably should cost them a draft pick.

When did they ever say his timeline was game 1? They said he'd be back for the playoffs which you know spans 2 months. It shouldn't cost them anything for having an injured players on IR, kind of a dumb suggestion.

 

[WarriorofTime]

It's not like Kucherov is 100%. He has not been moving very well. Obviously he can still put up points on the powerplay where he does not need to move around as much, but he is not nearly as effective as he was prior to being injured.

 

[Sky04]

Yeah I see what your saying and agree with it. There is utility in the rule under the proper circumstances and when it is used in good faith, but it is a slippery slope to frustration. Particularly for other fans (and players) that feel their teams become a victim of it. Like you mention, Kucherov practicing 6 weeks full contact and then stepping in the first playoff game and playing to the level he has been from then on is suspect, or at least I think it is. That said, I am not a doctor, trainer, or a person has had to go through that kind of surgery.

The answer is probably not in changing the rule, but ensuring the proper checks and balances are in place to ensure the integrity of the rule. I know I have seen people say that the NHL could have investigated it if they felt it was cap circumvention. However, does the NHL really have the authority to force a player to submit to an independent medical examination in those circumstances? I really don't know the answer and would be interested in what it is but I would be surprised if the NHLPA didn't have something to say about it. Further, any opinion the NHL does obtain from a doctor would without a doubt be countered by team doctor opinions and independent specialists the team chooses to retain. I guess the NHL may have the power to deem them ineligible for the LTIR if they could get the evidence, but I think getting conclusive evidence would be the hard, if not impossible part.

Anyway, I agree the rule is useful when used properly, but I think the enforcement or checks and balances surrounding it may be lacking. Then again I guess we don't know what happens behind the scenes and for all we know the NHL did investigate.

It's weird when people make up lies.

Lightning's Nikita Kucherov: Cleared for contact.

He was cleared for contact May 4th, playoffs started May 16th, not even 2 weeks.

Tyler Seguin came back and scored 2 goals in his first 2 games, he later opted out of the final 2 games of the RS to go back to recovery. Marchand and Pasta both missed the start of the season with the same hip surgery, Marchand came back with 11 points in his first 8 games and Pastrnak had 8 points in his first 4. You guys do know the recovery period is to help get them into game shape right? And then act surprised when they perform in said game shape. It's amazing how much common sense is missing here.

 

[Sky04]

Nothing they did was against the rules, at all.
Teams should have just accepted it and beat the Devils in the playoffs

They did..... Kovalchuk still signed after. Genius.

 

[Saucechucker99]

It's weird when people make up lies.

Lightning's Nikita Kucherov: Cleared for contact.

He was cleared for contact May 4th, playoffs started May 16th, not even 2 weeks.

Tyler Seguin came back and scored 2 goals in his first 2 games, he later opted out of the final 2 games of the RS to go back to recovery. Marchand and Pasta both missed the start of the season with the same hip surgery, Marchand came back with 11 points in his first 8 games and Pastrnak had 8 points in his first 4. You guys do know the recovery period is to help get them into game shape right? And then act surprised when they perform in said game shape. It's amazing how much common sense is missing here.

Well, I just went with what the previous guy said about Kucherov practicing with contact so thats my bad for not looking that up.

Pasta’s surgery was arthroscopic and I think Marchand had a sports hernia so those aren’t the same. I guess Seguin and Kucherov are comparable so fair enough.

In any event you guys are gonna win the cup and Kucherov is freak. The optics just piss people off and there ain’t anything that is going to change that so enjoy the cup and we will enjoy chirpin.

 

[Nuckler]

I said this in another thread we shouldn't be mad at Tampa.

Be mad at:

The NHL for writing the rules to allow it

And

Your favourite team's GM for not doing it first.

This is exactly what the Canucks did and they retroactively got smacked with a cap penalty for Luongo. And with the recent changes to the recapture I think they are really the only teams that is taking a hit like this. Still pissed that they changed it before Weber retired, that recapture would have been glorious

 

[Captain97]

This is exactly what the Canucks did and they retroactively got smacked with a cap penalty for Luongo. And with the recent changes to the recapture I think they are really the only teams that is taking a hit like this. Still pissed that they changed it before Weber retired, that recapture would have been glorious

The Weber Recapture is going to still be nasty if it happens though. They still face the same total amount but it can't exceed the cap hit value each year. So instead of like a 24 million$ penalty for one year it'll be more like 8 for 3.

 

[Bolt32]

Well, I just went with what the previous guy said about Kucherov practicing with contact so thats my bad for not looking that up.

Pasta’s surgery was arthroscopic and I think Marchand had a sports hernia so those aren’t the same. I guess Seguin and Kucherov are comparable so fair enough.

In any event you guys are gonna win the cup and Kucherov is freak. The optics just piss people off and there ain’t anything that is going to change that so enjoy the cup and we will enjoy chirpin.

We still have two more rounds. I'm not counting anyone out yet that is in the final four.

 

[MK9]

As long as the league doesn't fix it til the Wild are able to use the option to resolve the Parise issue. Then I'm good with whatever you do with it.

 

[mouser]

This is exactly what the Canucks did and they retroactively got smacked with a cap penalty for Luongo. And with the recent changes to the recapture I think they are really the only teams that is taking a hit like this. Still pissed that they changed it before Weber retired, that recapture would have been glorious

Four teams have received Cap Recapture penalties. Vancouver is one of the three still having a penalty on their books. The fourth team's penalty expired last season.

 

[AZviaNJ]

If the league is going to have a salary cap (which makes sense) why wouldn’t you have a cap when games matter most…the playoffs (doesn’t make sense).

 

[GermanSpitfire]

 

[57special]

The whole point of a salary cap is to let teams compete on a level playing field as much as possible, rather than have a situation like in baseball or soccer where Bayern Munich, Man City, or the Dodgers are able to buy the best players, and be a stronger team because of it. What TBL has done this year clearly violates the spirit of rule, if not the letter of it. Wealthier teams will be able to load up for the playoffs and have an advantage over less wealthy teams.

My question is why there is such an arbitrary application of cap advantage rules. If NSH, VAN, MN were penalized for legal at the time contracts(Weber, Suter, etc.) by the cap recapture rule because it was deemed that they gave them an unfair advantage, then how is TBL skating on their blatant cap manipulation?

 

[Curufinwe]

Using LTIR is not circumvention.

 

[txpd]

Using LTIR is not circumvention.

Its within the rules. The idea of one of the best players in the league being added to a team that was capped out for the playoffs is not what they had in mind when they designed the rules. On the surface even the average fan can see its not fair.

Its legal now but making adjustments to rules to make them work better is normal. Players on LTIR at the end of the season should probably not be eligible for playoffs.

 

[kingpest19]

They weren’t allowed to since the NHL stepped in on that Kovalchuk contract and took away a devils 1st rounder.

Why should Tampa be allowed to go over the cap by as much as 18M when teams like Vancouver (or in the future Nashville) aren’t able to afford a guy like Toffoli because of the Luongo cap recapture penalty that was enforced to prevent teams from circumventing the salary cap?

Nothing Tampa did was illegal, and there shouldn’t be any repercussions from what they’re doing but the NHL needs to do something to prevent this from happening further.

The Loungo recapture penalty didn't have much to do with them not being able to resign Toffoli. It was more Benning and his horrible decisions that prevented them from re-signing him. Over $7M in buried cap hit from contracts he gave out on top of all the other crap contracts and poor decisions he made.