The Next Step In Kadri's Evolution

[nsleaf]

So if the pass is a good one but the receiver doesn't finish, is it still a good pass?

 

[Duke Silver]

So if the pass is a good one but the receiver doesn't finish, is it still a good pass?

Depends on whether you think Joey Crabb and Darryl Boyce are snipers.

 

[kb]

You do know someone needs to finish for the passer to get an assist right?

And how do you rate Komarov as a finisher?

I don't have a dog in this fight either way, but he only had Komarov 50% of the time last year and yet could only muster 16 even strength assists (Hainsey had one more, for the record). For the most part, everyone else he played with (save Komarov) on his line, had decent or better finish. For his career he averages roughly 21 even strength assists per year.

Just a general observation here - and not necessarily just specific to this thread - but there has never been a player ever who has had so many excuses made for him as Kadri has. It's frankly baffling to me. If someone makes an observation that isn't glowing, people immediately come rushing to defend by one of 2 predictable methods: either denigrating and dismissing the poster as a Kadri hater, or by blaming Kadri's linemates. He's a very good player and the Leafs are very fortunate to have him, but like all players, he is not perfect - and the poster may have a valid point here.

 

[nsleaf]

Depends on whether you think Joey Crabb and Darryl Boyce are snipers.

No, it does not depend on what I think, it's a stats question? Barely ever heard of those scrubs, has there inability to finish affected NK's passing stats? Is it like a good QB without good receivers.

 

[moon111]

So if the pass is a good one but the receiver doesn't finish, is it still a good pass?

Ask Nylander, he assisted on more Komarov goals.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Just a general observation here - and not necessarily just specific to this thread - but there has never been a player ever who has had so many excuses made for him as Kadri has. It's frankly baffling to me.

You should read the threads on the main boards where no matter how Zeke crunches the numbers, Kadri comes out as a #1C based on his play over the last two years. Just to be clear, I'm not making excuses for one cherry picked stat, just pointing out that Kadri has been at a #1C level over the last two years and that any player can be made to look worse than he is by cherry picking one! isolated stat.

 

[Duke Silver]

I don't have a dog in this fight either way, but he only had Komarov 50% of the time last year and yet could only muster 16 even strength assists (Hainsey had one more, for the record). For the most part, everyone else he played with (save Komarov) on his line, had decent or better finish. For his career he averages roughly 21 even strength assists per year.

Just a general observation here - and not necessarily just specific to this thread - but there has never been a player ever who has had so many excuses made for him as Kadri has. It's frankly baffling to me. If someone makes an observation that isn't glowing, people immediately come rushing to defend by one of 2 predictable methods: either denigrating and dismissing the poster as a Kadri hater, or by blaming Kadri's linemates. He's a very good player and the Leafs are very fortunate to have him, but like all players, he is not perfect - and the poster may have a valid point here.

You can flip that the other way, too. Has there ever been a player so picked apart by surface-level observations?

Kadri absolutely isn't perfect. He's not a star. He's an above-average complimentary piece. But people like to ignore context in their player evaluations around here, whether it be Kadri or Gardiner or Matthews. People seem terrified of asking the question "why", of diving deeper into things.

Take your comment about averaging roughly 21 even strength assists per year, for example. You just threw out a number, without saying it was good, bad, average. What does that accomplish? What insight does that provide?

Even-strength assists per 82 games, for all forwards with 5000+ mins played since 2012-13 (Kadri's first season as a full-time NHLer):

Kadri: 20.1 (56th among 133 players, 34th among 63 centres)

Centres around him (18-22 ESA/82G): Bergeron, Couture, Johansen, Carter, O'Reilly, T. Johnson, M. Koivu, Couturier, Pavelski, Brassard, Turris, RNH, B. Schenn, Monahan. That's not a bad collection of players. A few #1Cs and mostly #2Cs.

And every one of those players, to a man, has been given better linemates and opportunities than Kadri.

That's insight.

 

[stickty111]

I don't have a dog in this fight either way, but he only had Komarov 50% of the time last year and yet could only muster 16 even strength assists (Hainsey had one more, for the record). For the most part, everyone else he played with (save Komarov) on his line, had decent or better finish. For his career he averages roughly 21 even strength assists per year.

Just a general observation here - and not necessarily just specific to this thread - but there has never been a player ever who has had so many excuses made for him as Kadri has. It's frankly baffling to me. If someone makes an observation that isn't glowing, people immediately come rushing to defend by one of 2 predictable methods: either denigrating and dismissing the poster as a Kadri hater, or by blaming Kadri's linemates. He's a very good player and the Leafs are very fortunate to have him, but like all players, he is not perfect - and the poster may have a valid point here.

Kadri gets defended because certain fans have a huge bias against him. If people are going to criticize him because of illogical reasons, then obviously the supporters will take his side.

 

[stickty111]

You should read the threads on the main boards where no matter how Zeke crunches the numbers, Kadri comes out as a #1C based on his play over the last two years. Just to be clear, I'm not making excuses for one cherry picked stat, just pointing out that Kadri has been at a #1C level over the last two years and that any player can be made to look worse than he is by cherry picking one! isolated stat.

Lets not even bring the mainboard into this. The anti leaf agenda their is obvious.

Me and you know from previous Kadri threads, why people come and defend him, and that the issue are the critics lead by same one poster everytime.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Lets not even bring the mainboard into this. The anti leaf agenda their is obvious.

Me and you know from previous Kadri threads, why people come and defend him, and that the issue are the critics lead by same one poster everytime.

I was referring only to the numbers Zeke posted.

 

[PromisedLand]

I don't have a dog in this fight either way, but he only had Komarov 50% of the time last year and yet could only muster 16 even strength assists (Hainsey had one more, for the record). For the most part, everyone else he played with (save Komarov) on his line, had decent or better finish. For his career he averages roughly 21 even strength assists per year.

Just a general observation here - and not necessarily just specific to this thread - but there has never been a player ever who has had so many excuses made for him as Kadri has. It's frankly baffling to me. If someone makes an observation that isn't glowing, people immediately come rushing to defend by one of 2 predictable methods: either denigrating and dismissing the poster as a Kadri hater, or by blaming Kadri's linemates. He's a very good player and the Leafs are very fortunate to have him, but like all players, he is not perfect - and the poster may have a valid point here.

I was going to reply to you in detail but Duke Silver (see his post below) did such an awesome job I'd let you read that post again. Context is important without context people are just grabbing at straws

You can flip that the other way, too. Has there ever been a player so picked apart by surface-level observations?

Kadri absolutely isn't perfect. He's not a star. He's an above-average complimentary piece. But people like to ignore context in their player evaluations around here, whether it be Kadri or Gardiner or Matthews. People seem terrified of asking the question "why", of diving deeper into things.

Take your comment about averaging roughly 21 even strength assists per year, for example. You just threw out a number, without saying it was good, bad, average. What does that accomplish? What insight does that provide?

Even-strength assists per 82 games, for all forwards with 5000+ mins played since 2012-13 (Kadri's first season as a full-time NHLer):

Kadri: 20.1 (56th among 133 players, 34th among 63 centres)

Centres around him (18-22 ESA/82G): Bergeron, Couture, Johansen, Carter, O'Reilly, T. Johnson, M. Koivu, Couturier, Pavelski, Brassard, Turris, RNH, B. Schenn, Monahan. That's not a bad collection of players. A few #1Cs and mostly #2Cs.

And every one of those players, to a man, has been given better linemates and opportunities than Kadri.

That's insight.

This is a brilliant reply! Kudos!!!

 

[CelticDruid]

Let us see how he does without Marner supplying him with the tap in's that he has these past two years. He will be watched closely this year to see if he warrants staying with the Leafs over the long haul.

 

[PromisedLand]

Let us see how he does without Marner supplying him with the tap in's that he has these past two years. He will be watched closely this year to see if he warrants staying with the Leafs over the long haul.

What tap ins did Marner provide Kadri in his rookie season in the even strength situations?

 

[Ratboy]

Is it not taking horrible suspensions that cripple our chances of winning a playoff series? That'd be cool of him.

 

[WestCoastLeafs]

Let us see how he does without Marner supplying him with the tap in's that he has these past two years. He will be watched closely this year to see if he warrants staying with the Leafs over the long haul.

I would say odds are are about 80% that Babcock keeps running two balanced PP units, and even if he goes with a stacked one, it's down to Nylander and Kadri for the last forward spot, and Kadri already having chemistry with Marner gives him the edge. So let's call it 90%+ that he keeps getting to tap in Marner's slap passes.

He has been "watched closely every year to see if he warrants staying with the Leafs over the long haul" by certain people, and the verdict is always the same.

 

[1specter]

Kadri absolutely isn't perfect. He's not a star.

Not to nitpick but IMO if you can score 30+ goals and do it more than once you're a star level player, especially if you are driving offense rather than leeching off a great player, like Moulson with Tavares. Though everyone defines star differently. For me I also separate star vs superstar/franchise player.

Kadri is also kinda unique in the sense that he has clout from being a minority and only Muslim player. That's given him a strong following and dedicated fanbase.

 

[stickty111]

Let us see how he does without Marner supplying him with the tap in's that he has these past two years. He will be watched closely this year to see if he warrants staying with the Leafs over the long haul.

1. This is really wrong
2. He didnt play with Marner 2 seasons ago
3. He is already part of the long haul. This decision was made when they signed him to a 6 year deal
4. The critics cant admit Kadri is a good player, and are upset he hasnt been traded.

 

[Duke Silver]

Not to nitpick but IMO if you can score 30+ goals and do it more than once you're a star level player, especially if you are driving offense rather than leeching off a great player, like Moulson with Tavares. Though everyone defines star differently. For me I also separate star vs superstar/franchise player.

Kadri is also kinda unique in the sense that he has clout from being a minority and only Muslim player. That's given him a strong following and dedicated fanbase.

Star to me is top-10 to 15 at their position. Elite is top-3 to 5 at their position. But yes, everyone has different definitions.

 

[stickty111]

I would say odds are are about 80% that Babcock keeps running two balanced PP units, and even if he goes with a stacked one, it's down to Nylander and Kadri for the last forward spot, and Kadri already having chemistry with Marner gives him the edge. So let's call it 90%+ that he keeps getting to tap in Marner's slap passes.

He has been "watched closely every year to see if he warrants staying with the Leafs over the long haul" by certain people, and the verdict is always the same.

Its okay. Some fans just dont like that Kadri is part of the future, so they keep pretending they are evaluating him to see if he is a long term member of the team.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Let us see how he does without Marner supplying him with the tap in's that he has these past two years. He will be watched closely this year to see if he warrants staying with the Leafs over the long haul.

LOL. How are you enjoying the summer of 2015?

 

[kb]

You should read the threads on the main boards where no matter how Zeke crunches the numbers, Kadri comes out as a #1C based on his play over the last two years. Just to be clear, I'm not making excuses for one cherry picked stat, just pointing out that Kadri has been at a #1C level over the last two years and that any player can be made to look worse than he is by cherry picking one! isolated stat.

I'm not disagreeing about who he is or isn't as a player, to be clear. I think the same type of argument could be made about Matthews too. But that is not the premise of this thread. Is it cherry picking if the poster says he may not be a good passer at this stage of his evolution? The stats do back up that position. The premise of the post is what is the next step in his evolution, and I happen to think there may be some merit to what the poster said. It's another step he could take in his evolution. Which would make the Leafs even more deadly.

I'm just so looking forward to puck drop running these guys 1-3!

 

[kb]

You can flip that the other way, too. Has there ever been a player so picked apart by surface-level observations?

Kadri absolutely isn't perfect. He's not a star. He's an above-average complimentary piece. But people like to ignore context in their player evaluations around here, whether it be Kadri or Gardiner or Matthews. People seem terrified of asking the question "why", of diving deeper into things.

Take your comment about averaging roughly 21 even strength assists per year, for example. You just threw out a number, without saying it was good, bad, average. What does that accomplish? What insight does that provide?

Even-strength assists per 82 games, for all forwards with 5000+ mins played since 2012-13 (Kadri's first season as a full-time NHLer):

Kadri: 20.1 (56th among 133 players, 34th among 63 centres)

Centres around him (18-22 ESA/82G): Bergeron, Couture, Johansen, Carter, O'Reilly, T. Johnson, M. Koivu, Couturier, Pavelski, Brassard, Turris, RNH, B. Schenn, Monahan. That's not a bad collection of players. A few #1Cs and mostly #2Cs.

And every one of those players, to a man, has been given better linemates and opportunities than Kadri.

That's insight.

This would be an excellent reply if one were trying to provide a rebuttal to someone attacking Kadri, which was NOT the case.

The premise of this thread is "what is the next step in Kadri's evolution". The poster had his opinion as to what he thought Kadri could improve. Why the rush to defend? It's the poster's opinion. I don't think he is wrong, he could become even better if he became a touch more unpredictable.

Are we just going to say "Nothing, he's the best that ever lived?" The whole premise is what is or should be next step in his evolution. There really should be zero need to defend.

 

[Gary Nylund]

I'm not disagreeing about who he is or isn't as a player, to be clear. I think the same type of argument could be made about Matthews too. But that is not the premise of this thread. Is it cherry picking if the poster says he may not be a good passer at this stage of his evolution? The stats do back up that position. The premise of the post is what is the next step in his evolution, and I happen to think there may be some merit to what the poster said. It's another step he could take in his evolution. Which would make the Leafs even more deadly.

I'm just so looking forward to puck drop running these guys 1-3!

Kadri's a fine passer, one cherry picked stat is not an argument. I'm more than happy with his #1C level production with tough usage over the last two years and would be more than happy if he can maintain that level for another year or two or three but hey, if you think there may be another stage coming in his "evolution" that's great, I hope you're right.

 

[kb]

Kadri gets defended because certain fans have a huge bias against him. If people are going to criticize him because of illogical reasons, then obviously the supporters will take his side.

Again....we are in a thread asking what is the next step Kadri could/should take in his evolution. The poster said become a better passer. Is this truly an illogical reason? The premise of the thread is to ask what can he improve to be even better that he is now. The poster wasn't saying he sucks.

I really think people need to stop rushing to defend, and to remember what the title/premise of this whole thread is. This is an opinion based thread on what people think he could do to be better. Whether you or I disagree, people are allowed to present their opinions.

 

[kb]

Kadri's a fine passer, one cherry picked stat is not an argument. I'm more than happy with his #1C level production with tough usage over the last two years and would be more than happy if he can maintain that level for another year or two or three but hey, if you think there may be another stage coming in his "evolution" that's great, I hope you're right.

It's not a cherry picked stat. It's the posters opinion and he may have a point that it's the next step he can take. The premise of the thread is basically what can he improve.