The Next 4 years

[deadhead]

The team that was most aggressive about trading prospects for players to get over the top was LA.
Even then, their most important trade was a 2nd rd pick and a scrub for Justin Williams in 2009, coming off an injury plagued season.
Penner (2011 trade), 1st & 3rd and Teubert (#13 2008)
Richards (2011 trade) - Schenn, Simmonds and 2nd rd pick
Carter (TDL) - Jack Johnson and 1st rd pick - the key trade
The four most important draft picks for their cup team in 2012, Brown (2003), Kopitar (2005), Quick (2005), Doughty (2008).

Second Cup - only move was Gaborik (TDL) for 2nd, 3rd and Frattin.
Penner was gone and Richards was meh in their second cup run, but draft picks picked up the slack.

The Chicago teams were primarily homegrown with two FAs over two years, Campbell and Hossa.
But their 3rd leading scorer in their first cup run was Sharp, who was a 3rd rd gamble on an underutilized prospect
Versteeg was another player picked up for minor assets, then traded for Bickell for the 2nd Cup run
Brad Richards was a one year signing for the 3rd Cup run.

Pittsburgh picked up a bunch of older veterans for their first Cup run in 2007-08
Guerin for a 3rd, Fedotenko FA, Eaton FA, Kunitz TDL deal,
Gonchar was the major FA signing back in 2005

Kessel was the big trade the last two cups, with a 2nd for Kapanen, 1st & 3rd
Bonino & Hegelin & 2nd for Suter, Perron and 3rd (two linked trades) - shuffling players
Hornqvist for Neal - shuffling players
Kunitz for Whitney, Lovejoy for Despres, Schultz for 3rd rd pick, Daley TDL deal

next Cup
Cole for Bertuzzo, Hainsey for 2nd rd

So while the right moves are needed, the top teams are built through the draft and maybe make one major trade and one or two major signings over multiple years - they don't wheel and deal their way to multiple Cups. A lot of key trades fly under the radar.

Hextall has already traded Schenn and signed JVR, he probably will make two major moves the next two years - but not the fantasy land series of moves that people love to postulate around here.

 

[flyershockey]

Even if we ignore the notion that Giroux and Voracek can't still be good/great players in 3-4 years, there is still a lot of value to having guys like Konecny and Patrick develop by playing with these two in their early 20's. If Patrick becomes a PPG center, or if Konecny scores 40 goals in the next couple of years, it'll be because of playing with equally as talented and established veterans like Giroux and Voracek.

 

[Jtown]

The team that was most aggressive about trading prospects for players to get over the top was LA.
Even then, their most important trade was a 2nd rd pick and a scrub for Justin Williams in 2009, coming off an injury plagued season.
Penner (2011 trade), 1st & 3rd and Teubert (#13 2008)
Richards (2011 trade) - Schenn, Simmonds and 2nd rd pick
Carter (TDL) - Jack Johnson and 1st rd pick - the key trade
The four most important draft picks for their cup team in 2012, Brown (2003), Kopitar (2005), Quick (2005), Doughty (2008).

Second Cup - only move was Gaborik (TDL) for 2nd, 3rd and Frattin.
Penner was gone and Richards was meh in their second cup run, but draft picks picked up the slack.

The Chicago teams were primarily homegrown with two FAs over two years, Campbell and Hossa.
But their 3rd leading scorer in their first cup run was Sharp, who was a 3rd rd gamble on an underutilized prospect
Versteeg was another player picked up for minor assets, then traded for Bickell for the 2nd Cup run
Brad Richards was a one year signing for the 3rd Cup run.

Pittsburgh picked up a bunch of older veterans for their first Cup run in 2007-08
Guerin for a 3rd, Fedotenko FA, Eaton FA, Kunitz TDL deal,
Gonchar was the major FA signing back in 2005

Kessel was the big trade the last two cups, with a 2nd for Kapanen, 1st & 3rd
Bonino & Hegelin & 2nd for Suter, Perron and 3rd (two linked trades) - shuffling players
Hornqvist for Neal - shuffling players
Kunitz for Whitney, Lovejoy for Despres, Schultz for 3rd rd pick, Daley TDL deal

next Cup
Cole for Bertuzzo, Hainsey for 2nd rd

So while the right moves are needed, the top teams are built through the draft and maybe make one major trade and one or two major signings over multiple years - they don't wheel and deal their way to multiple Cups. A lot of key trades fly under the radar.

Hextall has already traded Schenn and signed JVR, he probably will make two major moves the next two years - but not the fantasy land series of moves that people love to postulate around here.

Look at the age group of those teams two best players and then look at the age of giroux and voracek


kopi 05,doughty drafted in 08, first cup in 12. Toews 06, kane 07, cup in 2010. Malkin 04, crosby 05. first cup in 09.

These teams won cups with their best players at the latest 7 years after they were drafted.

Giroux was drafted 12 years ago.

The best example to have given would have been the caps with ovi and backstrom. The difference with them however is that they have a 3rd player is is better than the two of them in kuzetsov and they also have a Hart finalist goalie. WE have carter hart. big difference.

 

[deadhead]

Giroux (31) and Voracek (29) are not our two best players - Couts (26) and Provorov (22) are our two best players.
Couts and Voracek are more like adding Hossa and Kessel, except we didn't have to add them, they were already there.

 

[Jtown]

Giroux (31) and Voracek (29) are not our two best players - Couts (26) and Provorov (22) are our two best players.
Couts and Voracek are more like adding Hossa and Kessel, except we didn't have to add them, they were already there.

Love coots , love provy. No you are on the fing pipe of all pipes. my god how can you even say that with a striaght face.

 

[Tripod]

how long should we wait to get this team a legit goalie to win a cup while we have giroux? Wouldn't it be better to make that move now?

Yes.

If you were to look around to my view, I have said repeatedly we should not just sit and wait for Hart.

 

[Flyerfan13]

I don't see either of Elliott or neuvirth here next year we still need a 3c , a top 4 dman and a goalie to fill in the holes. Hopefully frost or voro take the 3c spot this year hopefully we can find a goalie thru trade or free agency before next season starts. Our team this season is definitely better and deeper than last season.

 

[deadhead]

Love coots , love provy. No you are on the fing pipe of all pipes. my god how can you even say that with a striaght face.

Couts was our best player the last three years, go to Corsica, look up pp/60, Corsi, and xGF, he's our leader in every category.
And he was our best forward against Pittsburgh.

Provorov is our second best player, he's our best defenseman and has lots of upside left.

They are our equivalent of Kopitar and Doughty, maybe not as good, but not that far behind.
Hopefully, Hart will be close to Quick.

The difference is LA had to hit on the Williams trade and trade their future for Carter and Richards to make a cup run.
We have Giroux, Voracek and JVR in the veteran scoring roles.
And LA didn't have a 2C with Patrick's talent.

 

[NYCFlyer]

Love coots , love provy. No you are on the fing pipe of all pipes. my god how can you even say that with a striaght face.

By the time we find a goalie, Patrick and Provorov will be our two best players.

 

[Striiker]

Giroux is easily our best player. Don't say stupid things.

 

[deadhead]

No he's not.
Giroux is a better scorer, but Couts is by far the more complete player.
Last year was Giroux's best season in five years, whereas Couts slightly improved over his previous two, who do you think is a better bet to repeat next season?

Giroux: 2.73 pp/60, Corsi 52.92, CorsiRel +4.51, xGF 55.31, xGFrel +7.31, Power Play 7.17 pp/60
Couts: 2.05 pp/60, Corsi 51.75, Corsi Rel +2.37, xGF 55.05, xGFrel +6.77, Power Play 3.28 pp/60
Giroux was a scoring LW, Couts was one of the top 3 defensive centers in the NHL

Playoffs:
Giroux: 0.78 pp/60, Corsi 50.76, CorsiRel +3.34; xGF 44.78, xGFrel -0.21, Power Play 2.2pp/60
Couts: 6.02 pp/60, Corsi 52.17, Corsi Rel +6.89; xGF 55.19, xGFrel +18.79, Power Play 5.75pp/60

Couts 2015-18: 1.90 pp/60, Corsi 52.39, Corsi Rel +2.91, xGF 55.08, xGFrel +7.12, Power Play 2.80 pp/60
Giroux's best seasons at center:
2010-14: 2.31 pp/60, Corsi 52.61, Corsi Rel +4.35, xGF 52.66, xGFrel +2.89, Power Play 6.70 pp/60

Couts is
28th in xGF over the last three years, JVR is 60th, Gudas 128th, Raffl 193 (out of 432)
2nd in xGFrel, only behind McJesus. JVR is 61st, Gudas is 68th, Raffl 144

 

[Striiker]

“Slightly improved”.

God damn you can’t make a single honest post, can you?

And Giroux is better. The gap in scoring is bigger than the gap in defense. Giroux had a bigger impact on Couturier than Couturier had on Giroux.

One beat their career high by 9 points... the other by 37 points...

 

[Jtown]

No he's not.
Giroux is a better scorer, but Couts is by far the more complete player.
Last year was Giroux's best season in five years, whereas Couts slightly improved over his previous two, who do you think is a better bet to repeat next season?

Giroux: 2.73 pp/60, Corsi 52.92, CorsiRel +4.51, xGF 55.31, xGFrel +7.31, Power Play 7.17 pp/60
Couts: 2.05 pp/60, Corsi 51.75, Corsi Rel +2.37, xGF 55.05, xGFrel +6.77, Power Play 3.28 pp/60
Giroux was a scoring LW, Couts was one of the top 3 defensive centers in the NHL

Playoffs:
Giroux: 0.78 pp/60, Corsi 50.76, CorsiRel +3.34; xGF 44.78, xGFrel -0.21, Power Play 2.2pp/60
Couts: 6.02 pp/60, Corsi 52.17, Corsi Rel +6.89; xGF 55.19, xGFrel +18.79, Power Play 5.75pp/60

Couts 2015-18: 1.90 pp/60, Corsi 52.39, Corsi Rel +2.91, xGF 55.08, xGFrel +7.12, Power Play 2.80 pp/60
Giroux's best seasons at center:
2010-14: 2.31 pp/60, Corsi 52.61, Corsi Rel +4.35, xGF 52.66, xGFrel +2.89, Power Play 6.70 pp/60

Couts is
28th in xGF over the last three years, JVR is 60th, Gudas 128th, Raffl 193 (out of 432)
2nd in xGFrel, only behind McJesus. JVR is 61st, Gudas is 68th, Raffl 144

1. Stats can be manipulated to get your point across.
2. You have done that right here and you know it

Claude Giroux has a very good chance of going in the hall of fame. Sean Couturier is coming off his first seasaon in which he has lived up to expectations. Please lets take a break from calling Coots our best player.

Coots is our best value. He is one of our most important players, but he is not above giroux. I know you have had an issue with giroux for some time but this is just crazy talk.

 

[captainpaxil]

By the time we find a goalie, Patrick and Provorov will be our two best players.

Giroux was a top ten center for the majority of his career. He's shifted his position which limits his responsibility but allows him to excel. He may be one of the best wingers in the league i am honestly still adjusting to thinking of him at lw so i haven't really compared him. Even on the decline hes our best player. Cooter is just now establishing himself as a top line guy let alone one of the league's top players. Cooter would be Richards on the la cup team. I think Patrick has the potential to dominate in ways we haven't seen yet. I'm expecting a big jump from him this year but the next level after that is wait and see.

 

[deadhead]

Couts has been playing at a high level for three years, last year he was in a position where that play results in flashier numbers.
What surprised me was how good Couts was the previous two years, but playing on the 3rd line, with primarily defensive responsibilities and PP2 time, suppressed his scoring.

And I don't think it's a coincidence that Giroux has a huge bounceback playing LW with Couts at center, notice Couts' numbers did not take a big jump last year outside of scoring, and that was due to playing on the 1st line for more minutes and with better wingers. That tells me that Giroux was helped by Couts more than Couts was helped by Giroux, that is, Couts played the same game he has for three years, but Giroux's overall game was much better at LW with Couts at center.

If you look at Couts the last three years versus Giroux's peak years (2010-14), there's not a huge gap other than scoring, and that reflects both that Giroux is an elite scorer and that Couts has played with a lot of bottom six forwards on his wing. Giroux isn't that player anymore, which is why he's at LW.

Couts is still underappreciated, he's up there with Kopitar and Bergeron as an elite two way center.

 

[BackToTheBrierePatch]

some people do value elite #1 defenseman over any other skater. It doesnt diminish the importance of the top end forwards.

 

[mdm815]

Giroux is our best player but coots is our most valuable. It’s like the McDavid hart/Lindsay discussion. That out of the way:

Trading players like G and V doesn’t get the haul most people think. Look at other stars traded recently.

We are set up to have a window w them as the vets and then transition smoothly into the prime years of Patrick, Konecny etc. The best teams have a blend of prime players and quality players just entering the beginning of the twilight of their careers.

Everything is still on track minus goalie. I agree that we can’t count on Hart too soon. I expect him to be the starter for the “phase two” of competitiveness (when the young guys now are 24-28). We should be looking to acquire a quality goalie for 2-4 years. Varlamov comes to mind, who knows who else will become available between now and next July. That to me is priority number one moving into the 19-20 season. The young D still need a year more to establish themselves.

IF you look to move G and V, you wait at least 3 years IMO. These aren’t declining scrubs yet. They are top players.

 

[deadhead]

Hart will be 20 this year, top goalies tend to hit the NHL between 20-23 years old. Some take another year or two to hit their stride, others hit the ground running.
There's a good chance that if he doesn't start next year, he'll be up by the playoffs in 2020 and our starting goalie in 2020-21 (see Murray, Holtby).
Flyers may well go with Lyon/Hart next season and Hart/Sundstrom in 2020-21.

 

[Striiker]

Nope, Giroux is still our best player right now.
The only thing working against him is age, but he's proven it isn't slowing him down yet. His bounceback was because he was finally healthy. The previous year he was still recovering from offseason surgery and the year before that he was injured, which is what led to that surgery.

2nd in the entire league in points and hardcore carried this team to the playoffs.... 8 goals and 19 points in the last 10 games for them to squeak in... that's what your best player does.

 

[hatcher]

Old core cant be trusted in the playoffs. We are a way better team this year and we have to win atleast 2 rounds or cut bait with the old boys.

 

[BrindamoursNose]

Giroux (31) and Voracek (29) are not our two best players - Couts (26) and Provorov (22) are our two best players.
Couts and Voracek are more like adding Hossa and Kessel, except we didn't have to add them, they were already there.

You're absolutely crazy if you think Giroux isn't our current best player

 

[Striiker]

 

[hatcher]

Nope, Giroux is still our best player right now.
The only thing working against him is age, but he's proven it isn't slowing him down yet. His bounceback was because he was finally healthy. The previous year he was still recovering from offseason surgery and the year before that he was injured, which is what led to that surgery.

2nd in the entire league in points and hardcore carried this team to the playoffs.... 8 goals and 19 points in the last 10 games for them to squeak in... that's what your best player does.

Coots best playoff game came with Laughton and Simmonds. Coach knew to get coots away from G as he would have went nowhere. We better make the playoffs easily this year but lets see what happens when the checking gets tighter in the playoffs and I'm betting no shows from G and V again.

 

[Striiker]

Coots best playoff game came with Laughton and Simmonds. Coach knew to get coots away from G as he would have went nowhere. We better make the playoffs easily this year but lets see what happens when the checking gets tighter in the playoffs and I'm betting no shows from G and V again.

Couturiers best playoff game came when he was away from getting matched against Crosby. When he was there he was losing the matchup, same as Giroux. Not because of Giroux... because the Crosby line was too good and our goaltending was too bad.

And you can keep pretending that Giroux isn't good in the playoffs, but you'll continue being wrong. Only time he hasn't been great is when the entire team got dominated, like the last two series.

 

[hatcher]

Couturiers best playoff game came when he was away from getting matched against Crosby. When he was there he was losing the matchup, same as Giroux. Not because of Giroux... because the Crosby line was too good and our goaltending was too bad.

And you can keep pretending that Giroux isn't good in the playoffs, but you'll continue being wrong. Only time he hasn't been great is when the entire team got dominated, like the last two series.

He matched up fine against Crosby. G was way out of his league. Good regular player but a dud when it matters and it will happen again and that's a fact.