The Next 4 years

[hatcher]

Couturiers best playoff game came when he was away from getting matched against Crosby. When he was there he was losing the matchup, same as Giroux. Not because of Giroux... because the Crosby line was too good and our goaltending was too bad.

And you can keep pretending that Giroux isn't good in the playoffs, but you'll continue being wrong. Only time he hasn't been great is when the entire team got dominated, like the last two series.

One good series as the man against a sloppy pens team.

 

[Striiker]

He matched up fine against Crosby. G was way out of his league. Good regular player but a dud when it matters and it will happen again and that's a fact.

Complete bull****.

In the three games they played together against Crosby, both had two bad games and one good game.

One good series as the man against a sloppy pens team.

And more bull****

Before that series he had 33 points in 34 playoff games. Then the series after that year he had 6 points in 7 games. Trying to act like the Pens series doesn't count is a load of shit too. You can't just ignore something because it kills your ridiculous argument.


You've proven you just hate the core and don't care about reality. You make up imaginary complaints to bash them. It's getting old.

 

[hatcher]

Complete bull****.

In the three games they played together against Crosby, both had two bad games and one good game.


And more bull****

Before that series he had 33 points in 34 playoff games. Then the series after that year he had 6 points in 7 games.


You've proven you just hate the core and don't care about reality. You make up imaginary complaints to bash them. It's getting old.

Its not points. He looks out of place and slow and cant get it done.

 

[Striiker]

Its not points. He looks out of place and slow and cant get it done.

Bull****

You're too biased to see clearly.

 

[hatcher]

Bull****

You're too biased to see clearly.

I loved him as a player until it was his team that's all. Regular games mean shit to stars its what they do in the playoffs as the main guys. Shit teams or not. This yr is big for Ghost,V and G in the playoffs.

 

[Striiker]

I loved him as a player until it was his team that's all. Regular games mean **** to stars its what they do in the playoffs as the main guys. **** teams or not. This yr is big for Ghost,V and G in the playoffs.

Your irrational hatred of the core is ridiculous. The fact that you have to make up lies just shows how far from reality the complaints are.

 

[deadhead]

Nope, Giroux is still our best player right now.
The only thing working against him is age, but he's proven it isn't slowing him down yet. His bounceback was because he was finally healthy. The previous year he was still recovering from offseason surgery and the year before that he was injured, which is what led to that surgery.

2nd in the entire league in points and hardcore carried this team to the playoffs.... 8 goals and 19 points in the last 10 games for them to squeak in... that's what your best player does.

And two years before that? The decline had started, G just isn't big enough or fast enough to play center at a high level any more.

2012-13: 1.98 pp/60, Corsi 50.65, CorsiRel +4.63, xGF 49.95, xGFrel +2.84, Voracek 2.55 pp/60
2013-14: 2.08 pp/60, Corsi 53.22, CorsiRel +4.88, xGF 50.61, xGFrel +1.53, Voracek 1.93 pp/60
2014-15: 1.42 pp/60, Corsi 52.91, CorsiRel +5.92, xGF 50.02, xGFrel +5.45, Voracek 2.13 pp/60 [Hartnell leaves]
2015-16: 1.56 pp/60, Corsi 52.62, CorsiRel +4.22, xGF 49.66. xGFrel +1.57, Voracek 1.61 pp/60
2016-17: 0.94 pp/60, Corsi 51.96, CorsiRel +1.24, xGF 47.68, xGFrel -2.37, Voracek 1.43 pp/60
2017-18: 2.73 pp/60, Corsi 52.92, CorsiRel +4.51, xGF 55.35, xGFrel +7.51, Voracek 1.96 pp/60

If he was injured for three years, he's awfully fragile. 2016-17 is the only year where it's obvious injuries played a factor.
Otherwise 2014-16 looks more like a player slowly declining, because Hartnell leaving didn't impact Voracek at all, on the same line.
Notice his Corsi last season is similar to 2014-16, his xGF made a huge jump, hmm, didn't he play with a center with consistently high xGF?

His bounceback was due to being healthy, but also playing LW with Couts, everyone the last three years seems to play better with Couts.

One factor that may have helped the top forwards last year was Ghost getting healthy and Provorov playing a bigger role on offense.

 

[Striiker]

Players have up and down years.

2011-2012 = Above PPG
2012-2013 = Exactly PPG
2013-2014 = Above PPG
2014-2015 = Below PPG
2015-2016 = Injury
2016-2017 = Injury aftermath
2017-2018 = Above PPG

That isn't a decline, no matter how many times you say it. Or did he also decline in 2012, but then recover in 2013?

Up until the injury there was nothing alarming, it was just the ups and downs of year to year production.



And of course Couturier helped, but it was more his health than that.
He clearly had a bigger impact on Couturier than Couturier had on him. Giroux was the star of that line.

Everyone seems to play better with Couts? Yep. And everyone seems to play better with Giroux too. Couturier... Voracek... Hartnell... Jagr... Raffl... Schenn... Konecny...

 

[deadhead]

Lies Lies Lies.

Look at Couts' stats the previous two years, playing with inferior wings, his scoring improved SLIGHTLY, his other metrics were the same.
2015-16: 1.82 pp/60, Corsi 54.21, CorsiRel +4.06, xGF 56.33, xGFrel +8.12
2016-17: 1.76 pp/60, Corsi 54.69, CorsiRel +4.42, xGF 54.12, xGFrel +6.81
2017-18: 2.05 pp/60, Corsi 53.46, CorsiRel +5.33, xGF 55.05, xGFrel +6.77

Couts scored a little more, which isn't surprising given he had Giroux AND TK/Voracek instead of some of the line combinations he had to carry the two previous years. And in the previous two years, he was used more in a defensive role than a scoring role, getting the tough matchups.

Couts did far, far more for Giroux than Giroux did for Couts.

 

[Striiker]

"Improved slightly" "Scored a little more"

Is that what you call beating your career high by 36 points?

Dishonest, as always.

And he still got tough matchups, but now he had the best player on the team on his line, which I think mighta helped a bit.

The guy who beat his career high by 9 points seemed to be just fine before ever playing with the guy who suddenly nearly doubled his.

 

[hatcher]

G couldn't tie coots skates now.

 

[Striiker]

I'll never understand why so many of this fanbase always take the star players for granted. Especially the best player on the team and one of the best to ever play for this franchise.

It's pathetic.

 

[Flyotes]

This core is locked up pretty well (Simmonds is an outlier but whatever).

They are mostly signed for decent term, then you have the youngsters. Next year all the UFAs (minus Simmonds) could go away and the Flyers would have about 35 million still in capspace and no core pieces (Simmonds being a tough case) are unsigned that are not RFAs of some variety (no real threat to leave).

That's good asset management.

 

[wankstifier]

It's hard to score at a PPG when most of the team is getting dominated.

Giroux had 4 points in 4 games against the Penguins in the regular season, but the Flyers still got swept. The Penguins were even better in the playoffs than the regular season. I thought common sense would show that a few players can't win a playoff series. Couturier was as good as a player can be in the final game of the Flyers' playoffs and his effort was irrelevant.

 

[Striiker]

It's hard to score at a PPG when most of the team is getting dominated.

Giroux had 4 points in 4 games against the Penguins in the regular season, but the Flyers still got swept. The Penguins were even better in the playoffs than the regular season. I thought common sense would show that a few players can't win a playoff series. Couturier was as good as a player can be in the final game of the Flyers' playoffs and his effort was irrelevant.

Common sense has no place in these complaints.

When the goaltending is letting in every shot, you better believe it has an effect on the rest of the roster. It's much harder to play from behind than with the lead or tied... it changes how you play and how the opponent plays.

But nah, Giroux just sucks apparently.

 

[deadhead]

I can't understand how people still underestimate Couterier.
I guess he's just a 3C with three "lucky" seasons posting 1C metrics.

Simmonds is no longer a core player, he's a 3RW, a supporting player but one who can be replaced.
But Lindblom, Raffl, Simmonds, Laughton are a good start on a bottom six.
The problem comes when you're forced to play them in the top six.

The key will be finding 3 or 4 (because you always end up playing 13-14 forwards) out of Frost, Vorobyev, MV, NAK, Weal.
Next year the bottom six will be easier, Lindblom, Frost, Vorobyev, Rubtsov, NAK and ???

 

[Striiker]

Nobody is underestimating Couturier. He's great.

You're underestimating Giroux because you can't admit you were wrong about his "decline".

 

[deadhead]

Lies Lies Lies.

Look at Couts' stats the previous two years, playing with inferior wings, his scoring improved SLIGHTLY, his other metrics were the same.
2015-16: 1.82 pp/60, Corsi 54.21, CorsiRel +4.06, xGF 56.33, xGFrel +8.12
2016-17: 1.76 pp/60, Corsi 54.69, CorsiRel +4.42, xGF 54.12, xGFrel +6.81
2017-18: 2.05 pp/60, Corsi 53.46, CorsiRel +5.33, xGF 55.05, xGFrel +6.77

Couts scored a little more, which isn't surprising given he had Giroux AND TK/Voracek instead of some of the line combinations he had to carry the two previous years. And in the previous two years, he was used more in a defensive role than a scoring role, getting the tough matchups.

Couts did far, far more for Giroux than Giroux did for Couts.

Actually Corsica has Couts scoring wrong, I calculate it should be more than 2.7+ pp/60, which is a big jump.
But many of his additional points are due to playing more minutes (1270 to 960 at ES) and playing on PP1. So he didn't "double" his scoring playing with Giroux.
Giroux had some impact, so did Voracek/TK. Having two top wingers helps, as it helped Schenn in St Louis (1.91) with Schwartz and Tarasenko.
Couts had to play with a potpourri of forwards the previous two years, that suppressed his scoring.

The underlying metrics however say Couts was playing as well the previous two seasons, just had better talent around him last year.

 

[deadhead]

Nobody is underestimating Couturier. He's great.

You're underestimating Giroux because you can't admit you were wrong about his "decline".

I'm not wrong, Giroux would not be a 1C if he remained at center, the demands of the position were hurting his scoring, you make heroic assumptions (basically he was injured for three years) to explain his falloff. A simpler explanation is as a smaller player without great speed, center became too physically demanding and his scoring slumped. Moving to LW with Couts means less skating, no more matchups with big physical centers and less defensive responsibilities, thus a rebound in his scoring (well beyond what a healthy Giroux could be expected to produce).

Giroux is an elite offensive LW, Couts is an elite two way center, you tell me who is more valuable?

 

[WheresMySnare]

This place blows in the offseason.

 

[Striiker]

I'm not wrong, Giroux would not be a 1C if he remained at center, the demands of the position were hurting his scoring, you make heroic assumptions (basically he was injured for three years) to explain his falloff. A simpler explanation is as a smaller player without great speed, center became too physically demanding and his scoring slumped. Moving to LW with Couts means less skating, no more matchups with big physical centers and less defensive responsibilities, thus a rebound in his scoring (well beyond what a healthy Giroux could be expected to produce).

Giroux is an elite offensive LW, Couts is an elite two way center, you tell me who is more valuable?

Why are you still lying? Either quote where I said he was injured for 3 years or admit that you're making things up.

If you need a refresher, here's what I actually said: https://hfboards.mandatory.com/posts/148017329/

On top of that, you can't say he wouldn't be a 1C because there's no way you could say that with any certainty. He was never given the chance to play C once he was finally healthy this year, which was a mistake by Hakstol. Maybe he could, maybe he couldn't, but Hakstol robbed us of the chance to find out.

 

[magnumpi]

I'll never understand why so many of this fanbase always take the star players for granted. Especially the best player on the team and one of the best to ever play for this franchise.

It's pathetic.

There's a contingent of the fan base that hates star players and skill.

There were people who hated Lindros (before the falling out). I remember arguing with people who said Leclair was better.

 

[deadhead]

There's a contingent that values scoring over two way play, and put too much weight on scoring alone.
Giroux is an elite scorer, Couts is an elite two way center.
It's not that Giroux isn't a top player, but give me the dominant two way center any day of the week.
When Patrick grows up, we can have two of them.
And if Frost turns out to be the player I think he'll be, we'll have three of them.

Which is f---g awesome.

 

[Flyotes]

Honestly, I love the RORs, Couts, and Bergerons of the world. I want 4 lines of it. I have a problem.

 

[hatcher]

There's a contingent of the fan base that hates star players and skill.

There were people who hated Lindros (before the falling out). I remember arguing with people who said Leclair was better.

Leclair was awesome and I sure miss those teams. This team we have now sucks to watch.