The Management Thread | White Hole Edition

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Izzy Goodenough

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You must be one of the last people to think the Emperor is wearing clothes.

Read carefully as posters after poster, lay it out as I have done by showing Bengie, as recently as 12 weeks ago, not 12 months ago, not 2 years ago, not seven years ago messed up his UFA signings.

The evidence is nothing if it is not abundant.
 
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Reverend Mayhem

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I'm not sure what that is, but do you think he was reluctant to give out money because he didn't want to give out money, or that he couldn't give out money?

The Holtby signing signifies to me the underlying problem, that is the willingness to give money to players for their name value in FA rather than actual value. The Holtby name sounds very nice, he's won a Vezina hasn't he? Until you walk outside the Canucks-sphere and talk to Capitals fans or watch Capitals games and realize he hasn't really been himself the past couple years. If you are truly cutting costs, why not go after a more cost effective option where you aren't paying a premium on the name and move some chairs around to keep one of Tanev/Toffoli?
 

VNCVR

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I'm not sure what that is, but do you think he was reluctant to give out money because he didn't want to give out money, or that he couldn't give out money?

The Holtby signing signifies to me the underlying problem, that is the willingness to give money to players for their name value in FA rather than actual value. The Holtby name sounds very nice, he's won a Vezina hasn't he? Until you walk outside the Canucks-sphere and talk to Capitals fans or watch Capitals games and realize he hasn't really been himself the past couple years. If you are truly cutting costs, why not go after a more cost effective option where you aren't paying a premium on the name and move some chairs around to keep one of Tanev/Toffoli?

He was willing to give out money in the next 2 years, when things are the tightest. Money comes off the books and there is more flexibility in the future, especially post covid. If he's able to consider signing OEL, or bringing in Schmidt or signing Holtby, or resigning Virtanen in those years. He had money. He spent money. He didn't use it on term for players he didn't see on the team long term. It is very clear.

He signed Holtby because they needed somebody short term, who would accept a short term deal, who was decent enough to put up decent numbers incase Demko faltered. And was also willing to be eligible for the expansion draft. I am not sure what options you think were better.

That was the ONLY option if a team wanted to go with Demko as the starter going forward

Edit-- Who would have signed instead?

Also who would you have used the capspace on in a short term deal?
 
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Paulinbc

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Before you read, I want it on record I am not a Benning fan. But I have noticed that most fans here are either a fan of him or outright despise him and I wanted to share perhaps a different outlook on the situation.

I have been critical of him since his first glaring mistakes. And I think I was mentally done with him after the Juolevi pick. Basically I told myself, its an awful pick, however if this guy turns into a stud because he saw something in him that most did not, it will buy him more time (in my eyes anyway). Juolevi did not workout as he had planned and as I had predicted. Though he seems to be developing, he clearly isn't a top D in the league and most likely will not be and that's what youre aiming for that high in the draft.

But I want to play devil's advocate for a bit here.

Benning was a poor hire. End of story. He either got the job because he sold them on being able to have them compete sooner, which Aquilini liked or he failed to execute on what was a poor plan to begin with.

But with that said,

Benning has made mistakes but he has owned up to them and not exactly continued to replicate the same mistakes throughout his tenure. I think the best example is his drafting. Benning started drafting with more weight and focus put into the players weight and shot. This is why Virtanen and McCann were atop of his list. He has seemed to moreso copy whats working right now vs being ahead of the curve, obviously not the best thing, it's also not the worst thing. He is willing to adjust and entirely change how he operates and learns from his mistakes. Its been hard as fans to live with those mistakes as they have a lasting impact on the team but he's been aware of them after the fact and definitely adjusted his strategy behind the scenes. Realizing he needs to also build a core here, he focused on positional needs as he realized defense and centers are important to building a new team, obviously realizing this was a mistake when he chose Juolevi over Tkachuk, he changed his strategy once again by announcing publicly that he will be ranking his list based on BPA in the months leading up to the very next draft, when before he made it public he prioritized centers and defense. He has been an open book about his formula and with that, with that we see that he does learn from his mistakes. Since then, his drafting has improved a ton, it's clear he no longer drafts based on positional need, especially in the first rounds where top talent is available.

I think he had to learn the hard way about cap management as well. I am in full confidence that he will be handling the cap going forward much better as well. You won't see term and dollars for middling players or a 4th line. I would put money on that

So while I don't think anybody should have to suffer a GMs learning curve and he was clearly over his head when he landed the job, I think he's developing and with the time invested, plus his improved drafting. I wouldn't be opposed to seeing more years as I think he has truly made enough mistakes in each department to where I do not see him making any of the big ones again, as I have liked how he has responded. Its been a terrible run and I can say I would not be disappointed if he was let go, I would also look at him being kept with this all in mind.

I don't think Benning has much of an ego, he very much seems like he is looking to continually improve. Which is something you can't say for some GMs. Can blame the owner for hiring somebody perhaps not experienced enough at the job in the first place (most likely to have more input) or you can put the blame on the former AGM/scout (that he hired) for not being quite experienced enough for the position, however willing to make adjustments over the years to get better. I personally like to put the blame on the owner for trying to rush things and exhausted from the learning curve but at this point , accept that he may now be a decent option going forward, even if it looks like they would be rewarding him for his past mistakes

My two cents anyway.
It’s been 4, nearly 5 years since the summer of ‘16. But this is hfb and I think you’ll get roasted. I know I have with the same message.

I still think the owner is the problem and I don’t think he’ll hire anyone better.
 

tantalum

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Somehow I doubt getting a free agent goalie with a save percentage of sub-0.900 is going to be difficult at even half the price of Holtby.

If the expansion draft were held today I really don’t think the Canucks would need to worry about protecting either of the goaltenders on the NHL roster.
 
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VNCVR

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It's very easy to point to Holtby's stats right now. If you are willing to ignore the play of the players in front of him and Demko's stats and every d man getting a new partner this year and the entire team being a mess, it's clear the bias I am dealing with. Anybody without bias would clearly say Holtby has still not been in a position to judge with certainty. It's been stated by most fans, any goalie in their situation would probably be putting up extremely poor stats. You shouldn't simply give up and take any goalie because you expect your team to be atrocious

I am not saying he will be good but I do not know if he will be better than other options yet because 1) he hasn't been given the opportunity and 2) i don't think there were many other options available that were better and Holtby had more chances of rebounding than any other options had potential to be as good or better than Demko
 

Mr. Canucklehead

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If the expansion draft were held today I really don’t think the Canucks would need to worry about protecting either of the goaltenders on the NHL roster.

IMO - the market for forwards and goalies is pretty thin for the expansion draft. But Seattle is going to end up with a really, really good blueline. There should be tons of excellent defenders available for them to select from.
 

Reverend Mayhem

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He was willing to give out money in the next 2 years, when things are the tightest. Money comes off the books and there is more flexibility in the future, especially post covid. If he's able to consider signing OEL, or bringing in Schmidt or signing Holtby, or resigning Virtanen in those years. He had money. He spent money. He didn't use it on term for players he didn't see on the team long term. It is very clear.

I don't know, I just see a guy who had roughly $10 million to spend on 6-7 roster spots and none of the RFAs being major contributors. We'll see where we go this next offseason, both Petey and Hughes need to be signed. I'm sure there'll be major shuffling and some less than popular decisions will be made even if not by Benning.
 

tantalum

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It's very easy to point to Holtby's stats right now. If you are willing to ignore the play of the players in front of him and Demko's stats and every d man getting a new partner this year and the entire team being a mess, it's clear the bias I am dealing with. Anybody without bias would clearly say Holtby has still not been in a position to judge with certainty. It's been stated by most fans, any goalie in their situation would probably be putting up extremely poor stats. You shouldn't simply give up and take any goalie because you expect your team to be atrocious

Goaltenders on atrocious teams are more than capable of putting up decent stats. Goals prevented above expected. The canuck goalies are poor in this and nearly all other measurements thus far.

That said with the likes of Jake Allen, Bishop/Khudobin, Lehrer/Fleury etc available I don’t think this is a concern for the Canucks.
 
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Izzy Goodenough

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So you are saying, limiting the term on horrendous UFA signings by Bengie is either because:
a-He is suddenly clever in his cap management.
b-Out of necessity because of his previous Cap debacles.
c-Related to the uncertainty regarding the future related to COVID that other less wise GMs, like Treliving are ignoring.

Come back after Tanev's second year in Calgary and we can address this again.
 

Reverend Mayhem

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It's very easy to point to Holtby's stats right now. If you are willing to ignore the play of the players in front of him and Demko's stats and every d man getting a new partner this year and the entire team being a mess, it's clear the bias I am dealing with. Anybody without bias would clearly say Holtby has still not been in a position to judge with certainty. It's been stated by most fans, any goalie in their situation would probably be putting up extremely poor stats. You shouldn't simply give up and take any goalie because you expect your team to be atrocious

I am not saying he will be good but I do not know if he will be better than other options yet because 1) he hasn't been given the opportunity and 2) i don't think there were many other options available that were better and Holtby had more chances of rebounding than any other options had potential to be as good or better than Demko

I am willing to ignore that, that's why I plainly alluded to his declining play as a Capital. Unsure why we decided to spend like 40% of our available cap on him. Doesn't really matter who we take on as a goalie, pretty much anything would've been a downgrade why spend money on that if Aquaboy doesn't have money?
 

VNCVR

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I don't know, I just see a guy who had roughly $10 million to spend on 6-7 roster spots and none of the RFAs being major contributors. We'll see where we go this next offseason, both Petey and Hughes need to be signed. I'm sure there'll be major shuffling and some less than popular decisions will be made even if not by Benning.

I am quite sure theyre going to part with most dead weight they can, trade virtanen and sign a big name UFA D man. or trade for one using a 1st round pick. I would hope they would shed more dead weight than they most likely will but it will be a step in the right direction. Thats my best guess. Again, I could be wrong but this is based on the evidence I have seen, based on his actions so far. Sutter Beagle or Roussel will be gone at minimum. It would be good to see all 3 gone. If they sign somebody, it won't be for too long. I would be shocked if they give more than 3 years to the UFA forward , if they sign one. They will give term to the UFA d, because they believe this is a core player. Not like Myers, Roussel, Ferland, etc

If I am wrong. He should be fired. But again, as dumb as he's been, he hasn't made the same mistake again, its different big mistake after different big mistake ;)
 

tantalum

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IMO - the market for forwards and goalies is pretty thin for the expansion draft. But Seattle is going to end up with a really, really good blueline. There should be tons of excellent defenders available for them to select from.

It’s thin but also not thin. There will be a couple of decent 1B/good backup guys available like Jake Allen that I suspect they are going to lean towards. Like Vegas I think they are going to want to look at a veteran guy or two and there will be some of those available. With a solid blueline in front all they might need is decent/average goaltending and I think that is available.

If the Canucks goaltenders pick up their play and start actually stealing points for the team my opinion could change but right now it’s not a concern. I can safely say that beyond the first period of the first Ottawa game where the Canucks gave up 24 shots there isn’t a game I can point to where the goaltender stole the team some points. And even in that game it was Ottawa and the Canucks scored a bunch of goals so it wouldn’t have mattered anyways.

Goaltending isn’t at the top of the list of problems with this franchise right now but it’s also certainly not helping. It will become a problem down the line if it isn’t sorted in some way (Demko starts making strides forward, different personnel etc).
 
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VNCVR

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I am willing to ignore that, that's why I plainly alluded to his declining play as a Capital. Unsure why we decided to spend like 40% of our available cap on him. Doesn't really matter who we take on as a goalie, pretty much anything would've been a downgrade why spend money on that if Aquaboy doesn't have money?

Because of the poor terms the Canucks were offering (expansion eligible/2 year max), not a big selection of players available, his upside if he rebounds, the available capspace that can be utilized since there weren't players they could have signed instead on short term deals that would benefit the team more. Mixed in with needing 2 goalies moreso in the shortened season, as illustrated in the bubble.

Who are you proposing they sign instead of used the money towards, that is only occupying dollars short term? I dont understand. They weren't giving term, unless its for a core player. So who was this person you would have used the money towards? Who would accept such terms?
 

Hit the post

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It's very easy to point to Holtby's stats right now. If you are willing to ignore the play of the players in front of him and Demko's stats and every d man getting a new partner this year and the entire team being a mess, it's clear the bias I am dealing with. Anybody without bias would clearly say Holtby has still not been in a position to judge with certainty. It's been stated by most fans, any goalie in their situation would probably be putting up extremely poor stats. You shouldn't simply give up and take any goalie because you expect your team to be atrocious

I am not saying he will be good but I do not know if he will be better than other options yet because 1) he hasn't been given the opportunity and 2) i don't think there were many other options available that were better and Holtby had more chances of rebounding than any other options had potential to be as good or better than Demko
Luongo was on some truly horrid Panther teams early on. Much worse than even the Canucks. Look at his save percentages; and he was still developing prospect then. While save percentage isn’t perfect, being below .900 is a pretty low benchmark. Comparison to Demko isn’t fair given that Demko is only a sophomore. You expect more hiccups with with. Especially with less than 50 NHL starts to his name.
 

Fatass

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Because of the poor terms the Canucks were offering (expansion eligible/2 year max), not a big selection of players available, his upside if he rebounds, the available capspace that can be utilized since there weren't players they could have signed instead on short term deals that would benefit the team more. Mixed in with needing 2 goalies moreso in the shortened season, as illustrated in the bubble.

Who are you proposing they sign instead of used the money towards, that is only occupying dollars short term? I dont understand. They weren't giving term, unless its for a core player. So who was this person you would have used the money towards? Who would accept such terms?
Should have kept Marky. Holtby’s money + Jake’s money keeps Marky here. We are so much better with Marky.
 

VNCVR

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Luongo was on some truly horrid Panther teams early on. Much worse than even the Canucks. Look at his save percentages; and he was still developing prospect then. While save percentage isn’t perfect, being below .900 is a pretty low benchmark. Comparison to Demko is fair given that Demko is only a sophomore. You expect more hiccups with with.

Holtby is not as good as Luongo. Holtby is playing on a new team and doesn't know the defence. Holtby's d pairings in front of him are all playing with new partners. The team in front of Holtby are very poor defensively and have never had a good defensive structure. The team is dead last in most defensive stats. The term/contract was accepted by Holtby because he isn't what he used to be but there was and still is upside of him rebounding his form.
 

VNCVR

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Should have kept Marky. Holtby’s money + Jake’s money keeps Marky here. We are so much better with Marky.

Keep marky, and trade Demko. It's an option. Sure. You cannot say that's a bad move yet. He went with the young goaltender that had big upside and who will cost less and fits more with the core age. Markstrom is performing well right now. So it makes you feel better about that opinion but it's simply guess work on what the right move is. I personally like the direction Benning went in this one move. I think most things he's done has been wrong, this is one that is 50/50 and yet to be determined. Look what trading Luongo for an underperforming Markstrom did. Trading for a younger guy and getting younger is often the right move, even if it's a bit of a gamble. And if it can also save you capspace to sign all the budding young star forwards, you do it. But again, I respect the opinion in this regard but it's surely not determined yet if this is a mistake. I like Demko + more future years + capspace more than Markstrom
 

Izzy Goodenough

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Now your argument is that Bengie is creative enough to find another type of transaction to profoundly mismanage rather returning to the scene of previous crimes and this should provide solace and confidence to those witness to the train wreck that is Nucks management.

Bengie and Weisbrod and FA are incompetent in every aspect of Pro-scouting.

It is like the 'Yang' to Gillis' 'Ying' of Amateur scouting.
 

Hit the post

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Holtby is not as good as Luongo. Holtby is playing on a new team and doesn't know the defence. Holtby's d pairings in front of him are all playing with new partners. The team in front of Holtby are very poor defensively and have never had a good defensive structure. The team is dead last in most defensive stats. The term/contract was accepted by Holtby because he isn't what he used to be but there was and still is upside of him rebounding his form.
Look at Holtby’s previous team. He didn’t suddenly go bad just after playing for the Canucks. He’s over 30 so I’d say the chances of him rebounding aren’t that great.
 

VNCVR

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Look at Holtby’s previous team. He didn’t suddenly go bad just after playing for the Canucks.

I am not sure if youre reading all my posts or the entire posts. I have mentioned multiple times that he has some upside to bounce back. This implies that he hasn't had a good previous couple years in Washington. This is a big part of why he accepted such a short term deal and is expansion eligible.

He is here to regain his form and get picked up by Seattle. Understood by both parties
 

Hit the post

I have your gold medal Zippy!
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I am not sure if youre reading all my posts or the entire posts. I have mentioned multiple times that he has some upside to bounce back. This implies that he hasn't had a good previous couple years in Washington. This is a big part of why he accepted such a short term deal and is expansion eligible.

He is here to regain his form and get picked up by Seattle. Understood by both parties
I just don’t see him regaining his form. He’ll receive little help from Clark to make adjustments to his game (like even Luongo needed as a Canuck) given how this league will play out this season. But that was basically known before he signed here. We’ll just have to agree to disagree. Though the limited time with Clark will probably adversely effect a sophomore like Demko more given that he’s still ‘learning the ropes’.
 

Fatass

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Keep marky, and trade Demko. It's an option. Sure. You cannot say that's a bad move yet. He went with the young goaltender that had big upside and who will cost less and fits more with the core age. Markstrom is performing well right now. So it makes you feel better about that opinion but it's simply guess work on what the right move is. I personally like the direction Benning went in this one move. I think most things he's done has been wrong, this is one that is 50/50 and yet to be determined. Look what trading Luongo for an underperforming Markstrom did. Trading for a younger guy and getting younger is often the right move, even if it's a bit of a gamble. And if it can also save you capspace to sign all the budding young star forwards, you do it. But again, I respect the opinion in this regard but it's surely not determined yet if this is a mistake. I like Demko + more future years + capspace more than Markstrom
How long did it take Marky, after we got him, to become elite? Five years? Marky is elite now, and clearly in his prime. I can understand letting him leave, and going with Demko, but imo that wasn’t the best asset management.
 

Fatass

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Look at Holtby’s previous team. He didn’t suddenly go bad just after playing for the Canucks. He’s over 30 so I’d say the chances of him rebounding aren’t that great.
Yup. Some goalies play well into their 30’s, like Marky is showing. Others, like Holtby, show serious decline as they get to 30+. Huge mistake signing him. And it’s for two years! :facepalm:
 
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