The Management Thread | White Hole Edition

[Fatass]

I am not sure if youre reading all my posts or the entire posts. I have mentioned multiple times that he has some upside to bounce back. This implies that he hasn't had a good previous couple years in Washington. This is a big part of why he accepted such a short term deal and is expansion eligible.

He is here to regain his form and get picked up by Seattle. Understood by both parties

Why would Seattle take Holtby?

 

[SamInVan]

that wasn’t the best asset management.

Nope...we build up Marky from the ground up, bringing in one of the top goalie experts, turning him into a top 5 goalie and today we have nothing to show for it.

If Benning knew they don't have the cap he should have traded away his rights for picks.

If Benning was still trying to sign him up to the deadline for FA signings it speaks to his lack of foresight.

Either way JB is not very smart at handling assets.

 

[VNCVR]

Why would Seattle take Holtby?

Well that's what he is banking on, he believes in himself. He needed an opportunity to rebound and the fit wasn't right in Washington. Canucks needed somebody willing to take a very short term contract and be waiver eligible, as the Canucks are clearly firm on keeping Demko. A temporary gig is not one people are lining up for. So the candidates aren't top of the class. As I said, having the capspace, him having upside to regain his form, him willing to accept the deal that allowed the canucks the flexibility resulted in him getting a bit overpaid. The Canucks heightened their odds of a goalie performing well, between a young player who is developing and an older goaltender who is looking to regain his form. Who else were they going to add that would accept those terms, if they are going with Demko, they needed somebody suitable, who is that somebody if not Holtby. Also Holtby has not yet proven hes incapable.

 

[SamInVan]

He went with the young goaltender that had big upside and who will cost less and fits more with the core age.

Yes, only because we had limited options.

With cap room you also have more leverage to be creative.

Keeping both would have been the ideal environment for Demko to further develop.

The expansion draft does complicate the situation but we could have put Marky on a 2 year contract that is loaded with bonuses that Seattle would have to pay out for example.

With Benning you just don't see any creativity as he gets hosed time and time again.

 

[VNCVR]

How long did it take Marky, after we got him, to become elite? Five years? Marky is elite now, and clearly in his prime. I can understand letting him leave, and going with Demko, but imo that wasn’t the best asset management.

Demko is not Markstrom. That's why Demko's value is higher than Markstroms was then. Markstrom had more to workout. Demko is much closer, which is why they made the decision. That is why teams are asking for Demko. I dont think many would disagree unless you simply aren't high on Demko.

There was only one other option, to trade Markstrom prior and perhaps not 100% sold on Demko yet, while only a few games, I do believe the playoffs cemented their opinion. I also dont think what a goalie would fetch (never get the true value in a trade) is worth missing the playoffs, even in that bubble. I think that bubble play actually gave our core a huge insight into what the playoffs are like and how they need to grow their game. I thought that was crucial. This is a decision teams make all over the league, they will keep players until free agency vs getting an asset for them, if on the fringe of making the playoffs. It's not just Benning. Playoffs make players.

 

[VNCVR]

Yes, only because we had limited options.

With cap room you also have more leverage to be creative.

Keeping both would have been the ideal environment for Demko to further develop.

The expansion draft does complicate the situation but we could have put Marky on a 2 year contract that is loaded with bonuses that Seattle would have to pay out for example.

With Benning you just don't see any creativity as he gets hosed time and time again.

You want to gamble on a contract that Seattle might not be interested in? I would be very interested in you laying out such an example. And let me know the odds are that you think they would turn it down.

I have not seen this proposition, I am open ears

If you keep both goaltenders, you risk losing Demko for nothing. Who they believe and some others believe is the goaltender of the future for the Canucks. I don't see a solution for this

 

[Fatass]

Well that's what he is banking on, he believes in himself. He needed an opportunity to rebound and the fit wasn't right in Washington. Canucks needed somebody willing to take a very short term contract and be waiver eligible, as the Canucks are clearly firm on keeping Demko. A temporary gig is not one people are lining up for. So the candidates aren't top of the class. As I said, having the capspace, him having upside to regain his form, him willing to accept the deal that allowed the canucks the flexibility resulted in him getting a bit overpaid. The Canucks heightened their odds of a goalie performing well, between a young player who is developing and an older goaltender who is looking to regain his form. Who else were they going to add that would accept those terms, if they are going with Demko, they needed somebody suitable, who is that somebody if not Holtby. Also Holtby has not yet proven hes incapable.

I certainly hope you’re right, and Seattle takes Holtby. If not him, then seeing them take Myers would be nice.

 

[Fatass]

Whats your point? Demko is not Markstrom. That's why Demko's value is higher than Markstroms was then. Markstrom had more to workout. Demko is much closer, which is why they made the decision. That is why teams are asking for Demko. I dont think many would disagree unless you simply aren't high on Demko.

There was only one other option, to trade him prior and not make the playoffs. I dont think what a goalie would fetch (never get the true value in a trade) is worth missing the playoffs, even in that bubble. I think that bubble play actually gave our core a huge insight into what the playoffs are like and how they need to grow their game. I thought that was crucial. This is a decision teams make all over the league, they will keep players until free agency vs getting an asset for them, if on the fringe of making the playoffs. It's not just Benning. Playoffs make players.

Smart asset management, and keeping our team better, would have been to sign Marky, and trade Demko after the bubble.

 

[VNCVR]

I certainly hope you’re right, and Seattle takes Holtby. If not him, then seeing them take Myers would be nice.

An added bonus to taking a stud goaltender off the table for them. They are very likely to take Myers and with how the Canucks have been playing him due to having a thin blueline. I see it being quite likely at this stage. I would hope Virtanen is traded before then

 

[Jyrki21]

As long as the owner is a permanent problem, that's just all the more reason you need a sharp GM to overcome that disadvantage. It shouldn't militate in favor of the current regime at all.

An added bonus to taking a stud goaltender off the table for them. They are very likely to take Myers and with how the Canucks have been playing him due to having a thin blueline. I see it being quite likely at this stage. I would hope Virtanen is traded before then

There is noooooo way Seattle is taking Myers. Why would they? They'll just take a depth forward or whatever if they have to.

 

[VNCVR]

Smart asset management, and keeping our team better, would have been to sign Marky, and trade Demko after the bubble.

Smart asset management is keeping the younger player you believe can serve the same purpose for far more years at a cheaper rate. It comes down to how you value Demko.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

As long as the owner is a permanent problem, that's just all the more reason you need a sharp GM to overcome that disadvantage. It shouldn't militate in favor of the current regime at all.


There is noooooo way Seattle is taking Myers. Why would they? They'll just take a depth forward or whatever if they have to.

you are on fire this morning with simple obvious answers to stupid deflecty arguments

 

[VNCVR]

As long as the owner is a permanent problem, that's just all the more reason you need a sharp GM to overcome that disadvantage. It shouldn't militate in favor of the current regime at all.


There is noooooo way Seattle is taking Myers. Why would they? They'll just take a depth forward or whatever if they have to.

That owner hires whoever they wish and will hire somebody who is inexperienced enough to allow for involved owner/s. There are two options with an owner like this, getting an inexperienced GM who slowly grows into one through learning from their mistakes or one whose ego allows for them to make the same mistakes.

Sadly there is no third option where you have a savvy experienced GM. Because that's not who the owner is hiring. This is just a fact. We are not talking in theory about what should be done. The owner intentionally hired somebody who is okay with the owner being directly involved and that often limits you to inexperienced people and people who also want to execute your vision (something that inexperienced people will reflect)

Don't like it, need another owner. This is my point, the owner is the problem for not creating the environment to be able to hire experienced GMs.

What depth forward? We can protect one extra forward by protecting one less d man, once virtanen is gone, the canucks can protect say, motte/gaudette and theres nobody left to protect.

Its either Myers or Macewen and I dont think other teams value Macewen like this fanbase. Also Myers is somewhat overpaid but that typically doesn't matter to a new franchise looking for quality d men. Not in their first years. They will be getting alot of players on rather low salaries and can afford a bloated veteran D. He's still a 5th d man, he's being played as a top d man here. Don't let him being over his head here cloud what he is. He should NOT be playing more than all other d on your team. If you put Motte on your top line, you would be screaming about him. It's perception based on usage

Who here thought Sbisa would be claimed by Vegas. I think Myers is very likely be to be picked by them if made available. Myers is 10x the D man

 

[DS7]

Benning has made mistakes but he has owned up to them and not exactly continued to replicate the same mistakes throughout his tenure. I think the best example is his drafting. Benning started drafting with more weight and focus put into the players weight and shot. This is why Virtanen and McCann were atop of his list. He has seemed to moreso copy whats working right now vs being ahead of the curve, obviously not the best thing, it's also not the worst thing. He is willing to adjust and entirely change how he operates and learns from his mistakes. Its been hard as fans to live with those mistakes as they have a lasting impact on the team but he's been aware of them after the fact and definitely adjusted his strategy behind the scenes. Realizing he needs to also build a core here, he focused on positional needs as he realized defense and centers are important to building a new team, obviously realizing this was a mistake when he chose Juolevi over Tkachuk, he changed his strategy once again by announcing publicly that he will be ranking his list based on BPA in the months leading up to the very next draft, when before he made it public he prioritized centers and defense. He has been an open book about his formula and with that, with that we see that he does learn from his mistakes. Since then, his drafting has improved a ton, it's clear he no longer drafts based on positional need, especially in the first rounds where top talent is available.

To be fair to Benning I think Virtanen and the 'size' fascination was lingering PTSD from Aquilini after the 2011 cup run with Lucic and missing out on home grown talent, I don't fault him for that although I do wish we picked Ehlers or Nylander. Did he ever publicly announce he was changing his formula? I don't recall this.

I think he had to learn the hard way about cap management as well. I am in full confidence that he will be handling the cap going forward much better as well. You won't see term and dollars for middling players or a 4th line. I would put money on that

I was willing to give him a mulligan after 2018 just to see how he would handle the cap. He has failed spectacularly. In being afraid to sign a potential anchor in Tanev or Markstrom, he opted to trade for a potential one in Schmidt. He could work out long term but we are still in a squeeze coming up, and we'll be up to the cap again just to retain our players on this middling team. I think you're better off putting your money on Bitcoin.

So while I don't think anybody should have to suffer a GMs learning curve and he was clearly over his head when he landed the job, I think he's developing and with the time invested, plus his improved drafting. I wouldn't be opposed to seeing more years as I think he has truly made enough mistakes in each department to where I do not see him making any of the big ones again, as I have liked how he has responded. Its been a terrible run and I can say I would not be disappointed if he was let go, I would also look at him being kept with this all in mind.

I think the biggest criticism of Jim is that he's a below average GM given the leash of a good one. Learning curve also implies exponential growth and potentially unlimited ceiling, I think Jim has hit what we would call a plateau, and has been for a while now. Also, one fatal aspect of his tenure has not improved, and it plays havoc into roster construction and cap. His pro-scouting. He's evolved from Sbisa->Gudbranson-> Myers. That rate of growth isn't good enough for me, nor should it be for a man heading a billion dollar franchise. He's tapped out his potential. Even as early as 2019, he still committed to spending 10 mil + in the offseason to declining players. Only this offseason he was forced to tighten the purse strings and that made him lose the people who actually deserved the money in Tanev and Stetcher.

Drafting is but one component of being a competent GM, the others involved communication (Stamkos Tampering, 'Ran outta time'), asset management (Tanev, Toffoli, 2nd round draft picks), people management (Malholtra, Brackett, Gilman), and an overall strategy that the players and fans can buy into. That has been torn apart this offseason. Time to go. This isn't kindergarten, time is money and valuable window competing time.

I have no interest in giving him another three years to learn what he has never practiced in his first seven years (seven!! People finish masters degrees and doctorates in less time than it takes for GMJB to 'learn on the job')

There is a saying, that a very good person can pull up with the strength of ten, but millions of slackers pull down. Jim may have improved his drafting, but it's being dragged down by every other weakness he has.

I don't think Benning has much of an ego, he very much seems like he is looking to continually improve. Which is something you can't say for some GMs. Can blame the owner for hiring somebody perhaps not experienced enough at the job in the first place (most likely to have more input) or you can put the blame on the former AGM/scout (that he hired) for not being quite experienced enough for the position, however willing to make adjustments over the years to get better. I personally like to put the blame on the owner for trying to rush things and exhausted from the learning curve but at this point , accept that he may now be a decent option going forward, even if it looks like they would be rewarding him for his past mistakes

My two cents anyway.

I think we differ here. I don't see him continually improving. Sure, maybe one aspect of his GMing is improving like drafting, but it's useless when it's being dragged down by other aspects of his game. Ty Madden was a great pick, what he did with the asset afterwards undermines his area of improvement. His most dangerous shortcoming is a lack of foresight combin. Anyone with a calendar and capfriendly.com could see this coming, and maybe Benning isn't a total idiot, maybe he saw this coming too, but that makes it worse in that he sold everything in 2020 to make the playoffs and save his job. That mindset, combined with his lack of foresight, makes him detrimental to this team.

When it comes to drafting, it sounds like he does have a bit of an ego too. If the reports of why Brackett left are of any indication. Brackett wanted more autonomy and control, and any decent manager knows when to empower his employees and help them grow. As a manager too, he should want to delegate these tasks to good people so that he can focus more on the big picture. Benning wanted to retain control over this function, it's all he's got to show after his time in Van.

Even if Benning has no ego though, he is easily led by those that do have, and I'm talking about Weisbrod and Aquilini. Remember Benning is also the President of Hockey Ops, do you trust him to defend his strategy to ownership? Or to stick to his convictions against their pressure?

 

[Hit the post]

That owner hires whoever they wish and will hire somebody who is inexperienced enough to allow for involved owner/s. There are two options with an owner like this, getting an inexperienced GM who slowly grows into one through learning from their mistakes or one whose ego allows for them to make the same mistakes.

Sadly there is no third option where you have a savvy experienced GM. Because that's not who the owner is hiring. This is just a fact. We are not talking in theory about what should be done. The owner intentionally hired somebody who is okay with the owner being directly involved and that often limits you to inexperienced people and people who also want to execute your vision (something that inexperienced people will reflect)

Don't like it, need another owner. This is my point, the owner is the problem for not creating the environment to be able to hire experienced GMs.

What depth forward? We can protect one extra forward by protecting one less d man, once virtanen is gone, the canucks can protect say, motte/gaudette and theres nobody left to protect.

Its either Myers or Macewen and I dont think other teams value Macewen like this fanbase. Also Myers is somewhat overpaid but that typically doesn't matter to a new franchise looking for quality d men. Not in their first years. They will be getting alot of players on rather low salaries and can afford a bloated veteran D. He's still a 5th d man, he's being played as a top d man here. Don't let him being over his head here cloud what he is. He should NOT be playing more than all other d on your team. If you put Motte on your top line, you would be screaming about him. It's perception.

Who here thought Sbisa would be claimed by Vegas. I think Myers is very likely be to be picked by them if made available

Difference being Sbisa only had a year left on his deal. Myers deal still has a number of years left on it. Better chance they select Holtby than Myers solely for that reason.

 

[tantalum]

Demko is not Markstrom. That's why Demko's value is higher than Markstroms was then. Markstrom had more to workout. Demko is much closer, which is why they made the decision. That is why teams are asking for Demko. I dont think many would disagree unless you simply aren't high on Demko.

There was only one other option, to trade Markstrom prior and perhaps not 100% sold on Demko yet, while only a few games, I do believe the playoffs cemented their opinion. I also dont think what a goalie would fetch (never get the true value in a trade) is worth missing the playoffs, even in that bubble. I think that bubble play actually gave our core a huge insight into what the playoffs are like and how they need to grow their game. I thought that was crucial. This is a decision teams make all over the league, they will keep players until free agency vs getting an asset for them, if on the fringe of making the playoffs. It's not just Benning. Playoffs make players.

At 25 Markstrom was in the AHL but his AHL numbers are as good if not superior to Demko. In the season Markstrom turned 26 he performed as well as the starter (> 6 goals saved above expected in his 30+ games). That's next season for Demko. Thus far this is something Demko is well underwater for so he has oodles to improve upon in his game. There is no guarantee Demko will be as good as MArkstrom is and honestly, there is a lot to argue about who was in a better position at the same age. But not everything with development is linear so that's a bit of a fools errand.

What did happen was a Vezina quality goaltender was allowed to walk to a competitor and no assets were gained. It was a straight up asset drain of the teams MVP. It was the wrong choice precipitated by numerous other bad decisions. And even with those previous bad decisions they had potential ways to essentially ice nearly the same team as we saw last night but with Markstrom and Tanev. The management failed in their decisions in previous years and failed in decisions making and execution this past off season as well. From what I can see there is no improvement in how the front office is thinking or executing. What concerns me the most is the decisions they make on this roster is based on what is the biggest weakness among all the weaknesses...pro scouting. They can't evaluate pro players on other teams so it shouldn't be shocking when we find out they can't on their own team.

 

[Fatass]

Smart asset management is keeping the younger player you believe can serve the same purpose for far more years at a cheaper rate. It comes down to how you value Demko.

I valued Marky as our starter, and .demko as the sweetener to dump Loui. Benning, again Imo, messed up.

 

[Burke's Evil Spirit]

There is no way in hell Seattle is taking Holtby *or* Myers. There will be 10 better goalies than Holtby available on better contracts, and Myers is a bottom-10 contract in the league.

The Canucks will lose one of Motte, MacEwen, or Lind, I'm pretty convinced.

 

[Hit the post]

The Canucks will lose one of Motte, MacEwen, or Lind, I'm pretty convinced.

And not because they have a ton of value but because they have to select somebody and those guys are on cheap and/or expiring contracts I believe.

 

[Jyrki21]

Its either Myers or Macewen and I dont think other teams value Macewen like this fanbase.

It has nothing to do with valuing MacEwen. It’s about steering well clear of an albatross contract.

Although Drance recently confirmed suspicions @MS had that this management thinks they needed to protect Myers anyway.

 

[SamInVan]

If you keep both goaltenders, you risk losing Demko for nothing. Who they believe and some others believe is the goaltender of the future for the Canucks. I don't see a solution for this

Seattle will not take Demko they need a proven starter.

Demko is our future and should be good, but that doesn't mean other organizations see him in the same light. Majority of other organizations likely only know about him from his 3 stellar playoff starts.

 

[Fatass]

It has nothing to do with valuing MacEwen. It’s about steering well clear of an albatross contract.

Although Drance recently confirmed suspicions @MS had that this management thinks they needed to protect Myers anyway.

Protect Myers from Seattle? God, Benning better not waste a protection spot on Myers.

 

[VanillaCoke]

Protect Myers from Seattle? God, Benning better not waste a protection spot on Myers.

It's almost a certainty. But we don't really have many players that are worth protecting..

 

[Fatass]

It's almost a certainty. But we don't really have many players that are worth protecting..

Good point. Who on D do we need to protect?

 

[M2Beezy]

Good point. Who on D do we need to protect?

Schmidty and Juolevi maybe