Blue Jays Discussion: The long, slow march of a winter off-season

[Kurtz]

If you cant see the relevance of comparing sports and the same issues the city has across their 3 major sports then you are being willfully ignorant.

I don't think I would agree on this point, I think the 3 are quite different. Imo:

Maple Leafs: Generally attractive Free agent destination
Raptors: Generally unattractive Free agent destination
Blue Jays: Somewhere in between. I don't think you can ignore the fact that the Jays have been able to attract a number of very high profile free agents, even if we haven't really done it recently.

 

[Mach85]

Can be close on the FO's side and say well this free agent signed for 40M and we offered 38M. Or they signed for 9M and we offer 12M, so we offered more. So the player can say all the right things and say i love your team but i want to go somewhere else. Agents and players dont burn bridges and tell front offices the truth, that they never were taken seriously. They need that good will.

Masai truly believed that he was close to re-signing Kawhi. He thought he was right there. Depending who you ask, including Kawhi, his motivation was always to play closer to home and Toronto isnt anywhere near LA. So i seriously doubt Toronto was close to anything with Kawhi. So the FO or even media might depict that it is close, but for a player's sake they know their top choice(s).

Those cases definitely exist, but as the number of players that "we were close" on grows, it becomes implausible that those special cases reflect the totality of them. Most players will follow the money. Kawhi was getting mountains of money no matter where he went and wanted to be home above all else. But Wheeler, Gibson, Odorizzi, Didi, Porcello, Lindblom, etc., etc., we can't plausibly say each one of them was a Kawhi-like case. At some point, the front office just has to do what it takes to get it done or stop talking such a big game that makes the fans expect something.

 

[phillipmike]

I don't think I would agree on this point, I think the 3 are quite different. Imo:

Maple Leafs: Generally attractive Free agent destination
Raptors: Generally unattractive Free agent destination
Blue Jays: Somewhere in between. I don't think you can ignore the fact that the Jays have been able to attract a number of very high profile free agents, even if we haven't really done it recently.

i disagree. The Leafs were pre cap when they could pay players a lot when the game was much different. But even then the top guys avoided Toronto. I only really remember Cujo, he was a good goalie with the Blues, wasnt great with Edmonton but hit his stride here then left for a better team in Detroit. Belfour came at the end of his career when we had no choice after Cujo left - it was Belfour or Byron Dafoe. Only real big name i remember was Mogilny when you look at modern day free agency.

But after the lock out and before Tavares we couldnt land players. And the players we did land werent good Clarkson, Kubina, Gill and Jason Blake or past their prime; Lindros, Allison, Marchment, Connolly. Got a meeting with Brad Richards but he went elsewhere. Some cases hurt the team more than helped.

Jays might be in between but it still remains to be seen. In the WS year they were successful but remember only 4 teams made the playoffs, so if you want to play for a championship you had very little options. It was the Jays and maybe 5 other teams. In the early 90s it was quite easy for the Jays to land free agents because they were one of few true contenders. The moment they werent, players didnt want to come. And back then traveling was much easier, no security and you could fly with or without id (my dad would tell me that you could buy a ticket without a passport and in most cases a drivers license - need to be at the airport 30 minutes before a flight) and the exchange rate was closer to par.

And believe what you want but i remember Clemens wanting to stick it to Boston when they said he was done. Clemens wanted to stay in the division to get back at Boston so his options were limited. He really didnt want to stay because it was report before the deal was finalized that he could request a trade at any time, something Beeston agreed to. It was a handshake deal. It was great to get him and get the deal done but i dont see a lot of confidence in the team that you just signed with when you worked in an out clause to force a trade, even before you got here. That was Clemen's doing not the Jays being creative. Kind of like ill take your offer of the most money but i want an exit strategy - maybe this is where the opt out clause came from.

Now, as playoff teams expand more and more free agents are looking at more than just the contenders and Yankees and Red Sox now.

In the NHL and NBA you have 16 teams that make the playoffs so player had more options if they wanted to contend.

 

[phillipmike]

Those cases definitely exist, but as the number of players that "we were close" on grows, it becomes implausible that those special cases reflect the totality of them. Most players will follow the money. Kawhi was getting mountains of money no matter where he went and wanted to be home above all else. But Wheeler, Gibson, Odorizzi, Didi, Porcello, Lindblom, etc., etc., we can't plausibly say each one of them was a Kawhi-like case. At some point, the front office just has to do what it takes to get it done or stop talking such a big game that makes the fans expect something.

Didi and odorizzi I cant really say. But i can tell you that if im them i take the Phillies too over the Jays. Jays are rebuilding in a tougher division in a different country. I would stay in the states to play on a better team with a better shot at a WS. especially Didi as he can re enter again next offseason.

Only "report" from Shapiro was about Gibson wanting Texas and Arizona ST games.

But there are clear reports from neutral media sites saying Lindholm wanted the Brewers over the Jays because Milwaukee was closer to home - jays offered more. Porcello and his wife are both from NJ/NYC and he picked the Mets for that reason - Jays offered more. We know what the report is on Wheeler - Jays may not have offer more or anything at all when it may have been known he wanted to stay closer to home.

It happens teams miss on guys and fans complain. The team lands a guy or two in Roark and Anderson and they still focus on the guys they missed than the guys they landed.

 

[Mach85]

Didi and odorizzi I cant really say. But i can tell you that if im them i take the Phillies too over the Jays. Jays are rebuilding in a tougher division in a different country. I would stay in the states to play on a better team with a better shot at a WS. especially Didi as he can re enter again next offseason.

Only "report" from Shapiro was about Gibson wanting Texas and Arizona ST games.

But there are clear reports from neutral media sites saying Lindholm wanted the Brewers over the Jays because Milwaukee was closer to home - jays offered more. Porcello and his wife are both from NJ/NYC and he picked the Mets for that reason - Jays offered more. We know what the report is on Wheeler - Jays may not have offer more or anything at all when it may have been known he wanted to stay closer to home.

It happens teams miss on guys and fans complain. The team lands a guy or two in Roark and Anderson and they still focus on the guys they missed than the guys they landed.

You're explaining away every miss though and it's not realistic to think at least one of those guys could have been swayed with a few extra dollars. I'd strongly prefer to play at home too but could be swayed to play elsewhere if the price is right, especially as a non-star pitcher who won't make oodles regardless of where I go. It's just not realistic to think that ALL of those guys I listed just weren't gonna come here not matter what.

Yes, they landed Roark. But Anderson was acquired via trade. If they only needed an innings eater like Roark then focusing on the one they did land would make sense. But when there are still significant holes in the rotation it makes more sense to question them for not doing what it takes to land another.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Thing is whether guys want to come here or not, management is paid to perform. We’ll see what plan b is

 

[phillipmike]

You're explaining away every miss though and it's not realistic to think at least one of those guys could have been swayed with a few extra dollars. I'd strongly prefer to play at home too but could be swayed to play elsewhere if the price is right, especially as a non-star pitcher who won't make oodles regardless of where I go. It's just not realistic to think that ALL of those guys I listed just weren't gonna come here not matter what.

Great point, i will concede this.

The other question is, is management motivated to up their offer. Did they say here is our best offer take it or leave it? Or said you know what we really want this guy but we are too stupid to offer more?

I think they offered what they were comfortable with and if they got the player great and if not, so be it.

Yes, they landed Roark. But Anderson was acquired via trade. If they only needed an innings eater like Roark then focusing on the one they did land would make sense. But when there are still significant holes in the rotation it makes more sense to question them for not doing what it takes to land another.

To me they are fine with the rotation when you are looking at year 2 of a rebuild.

Now if you think they are contenders for a WC spot, then yes i would agree, they are "significant holes."

I see them as year 2 of a rebuild not a contender for a WC spot.

 

[phillipmike]

 

[Mach85]

I think they offered what they were comfortable with and if they got the player great and if not, so be it.

That's what I think too. I don't doubt they tried, but I doubt they were "all in." Perhaps they didn't anticipate the market to shake out like it has and in hindsight would have gone full bore on Odorizzi. But if that's the case then I just wish they would have made an adjustment before we got to this point. They're not rookies.

To me they are fine with the rotation when you are looking at year 2 of a rebuild.

Now if you think they are contenders for a WC spot, then yes i would agree, they are "significant holes."

I see them as year 2 of a rebuild not a contender for a WC spot.

That's fair. I just don't want assets to be spent bringing guys in that wouldn't have been spent had they landed one of the others I mentioned. We can't rely on Shoe given his history, so we're basically looking at Roark as a given. Thornton can probably handle some innings. Anderson hopefully, although it's possible he ends up in the pen. Borucki, Kay, and Waguespack would then be leaned on hard, and any of them could prove unplayable. They're basically throwing away the season already when with another obtainable signing or two they could have put themselves in a nice position in case the young bats take off. I think that's what frustrates a lot of us. Also the lingering doubt that management can just flip the switch next offseason and do what needs to be done.

 

[jetsforever]

Great guy, hope he does well in Milwaukee




It would be cool to bring back EE (at DH I assume), always a lock for a bunch of HRs.

 

[phillipmike]

That's what I think too. I don't doubt they tried, but I doubt they were "all in." Perhaps they didn't anticipate the market to shake out like it has and in hindsight would have gone full bore on Odorizzi. But if that's the case then I just wish they would have made an adjustment before we got to this point. They're not rookies..

Agreed, i think they see it like i do. They are in year 2 of a rebuild so there is no urgency to make the overpayment now. They still have time.

I think it is completely fair to put the "they should have made adjustments and they are not rookies" argument on them. Completely fair. The only point i would make is that the market has been crazy since 2016. After the 2015 season we saw a normal year with big contracts. After 2016 Edwin couldnt get $80M. After 2017 same thing as the year before except for JD Martinez. After 2018 Harper and Machado got less than expect and it took longer than expected, 2nd tier guys didnt really get paid - Brantley was a 35 WAR player but got less than 50M. Then we went into this off-season with the idea that Cole and Rendon would get paid. Then Strasburg get at the time an MLB record deal at the age of 31, no one saw that and that screwed the market. Even a 34 year old Donaldson is getting 4 year offers.

Fair to criticism them for not reading the market but you have to admit, the market since they took over has been incredible hard to read. The easiest year to read was after the 2015 season when it was a normal market year and i would say they did pretty well with Happ and Estrada. Since then they havent done well on the market, so yeah, they might have failed there.

That's fair. I just don't want assets to be spent bringing guys in that wouldn't have been spent had they landed one of the others I mentioned. We can't rely on Shoe given his history, so we're basically looking at Roark as a given. Thornton can probably handle some innings. Anderson hopefully, although it's possible he ends up in the pen. Borucki, Kay, and Waguespack would then be leaned on hard, and any of them could prove unplayable. They're basically throwing away the season already when with another obtainable signing or two they could have put themselves in a nice position in case the young bats take off. I think that's what frustrates a lot of us. Also the lingering doubt that management can just flip the switch next offseason and do what needs to be done

To me a lot rode on Vladdy. If he had a 5-7 WAR season like some where expecting then you can accelerate or even get free agents to be interested in you. But he looked very forgettable and so did the Jays. To me it became very clearly that based on our 2019 performance, we werent contending in 2020. I could be dead wrong but this team needs much much more than a Wheeler, Gibson and/or Porcello.

I used different terms than you. 2020 may be a big year for you to use the terms "relied" and "leaned" on. I see this as another rebuilding year so i am using "develop" because thats what we will be doing this year, developing our pitchers in Thornton, Pearson, Borucki, Kay and anyone else that makes it. If i thought the Jays would be contenders then i would be an idiot to think this rotation is ok. But i expect another development year.

 

[hockeywiz542]

 

[phillipmike]

 

[Amadeus]

Alex Wood would be a solid pick up.

 

[Cor]

 

[Suntouchable13]

i disagree. The Leafs were pre cap when they could pay players a lot when the game was much different. But even then the top guys avoided Toronto. I only really remember Cujo, he was a good goalie with the Blues, wasnt great with Edmonton but hit his stride here then left for a better team in Detroit. Belfour came at the end of his career when we had no choice after Cujo left - it was Belfour or Byron Dafoe. Only real big name i remember was Mogilny when you look at modern day free agency.

But after the lock out and before Tavares we couldnt land players. And the players we did land werent good Clarkson, Kubina, Gill and Jason Blake or past their prime; Lindros, Allison, Marchment, Connolly. Got a meeting with Brad Richards but he went elsewhere. Some cases hurt the team more than helped.

Jays might be in between but it still remains to be seen. In the WS year they were successful but remember only 4 teams made the playoffs, so if you want to play for a championship you had very little options. It was the Jays and maybe 5 other teams. In the early 90s it was quite easy for the Jays to land free agents because they were one of few true contenders. The moment they werent, players didnt want to come. And back then traveling was much easier, no security and you could fly with or without id (my dad would tell me that you could buy a ticket without a passport and in most cases a drivers license - need to be at the airport 30 minutes before a flight) and the exchange rate was closer to par.

And believe what you want but i remember Clemens wanting to stick it to Boston when they said he was done. Clemens wanted to stay in the division to get back at Boston so his options were limited. He really didnt want to stay because it was report before the deal was finalized that he could request a trade at any time, something Beeston agreed to. It was a handshake deal. It was great to get him and get the deal done but i dont see a lot of confidence in the team that you just signed with when you worked in an out clause to force a trade, even before you got here. That was Clemen's doing not the Jays being creative. Kind of like ill take your offer of the most money but i want an exit strategy - maybe this is where the opt out clause came from.

Now, as playoff teams expand more and more free agents are looking at more than just the contenders and Yankees and Red Sox now.

In the NHL and NBA you have 16 teams that make the playoffs so player had more options if they wanted to contend.

If they never attract any elite free agents, they will never contend with the Sox and Yankees. A few isolated years, sure, but never on a yearly basis. Toronto is a great city with lots of good selling points. I don't see why they can't easily attract someone significant here.

 

[Suntouchable13]

Kawhi isnt unique. Many players want to play close to home or with a team they have roots with and sometimes far away from money and even winning. We have seen that more and more.



Danny Green had no plans to return to Raptors, report says



If players really wanted to come here we would have made a fit. Have a ridiculous amount of expiring deals that we could use ni a sign and trade.

Toronto isnt a free agent destination in the NBA, MLB and to a lesser extent NHL.

But Green loves Toronto. He stayed here almost the whole summer

 

[phillipmike]

But Green loves Toronto. He stayed here almost the whole summer

loved the championship run and visiting the place because he would charged $20-30 for autographs and people would pay in Toronto because they never seen a championship in their lifetime.

 

[phillipmike]

If they never attract any elite free agents, they will never contend with the Sox and Yankees. A few isolated years, sure, but never on a yearly basis. Toronto is a great city with lots of good selling points. I don't see why they can't easily attract someone significant here.

they can, they just have to overpay on an already overpayment found in free agency.

they can easily do it but it’s just if the from office wants to. Last few GMs don’t want to do it but if they had an aggressive GM like Dombrowski then they would.

 

[Kurtz]

I still think Ryu ends up in LA (I can't believe Angels haven't signed him yet tbh), but I bet the Jays do end up bringing EE back for a year. Good PR move needed badly right now, plus I think EE will want to end his career here.

 

[phillipmike]

John Farrells son.

Report: Blue Jays hire Shane Farrell as amateur scouting director - Sportsnet.ca

 

[LeafChief]

John Farrells son.

Report: Blue Jays hire Shane Farrell as amateur scouting director - Sportsnet.ca

f*** John Farrell.

 

[Suntouchable13]

loved the championship run and visiting the place because he would charged $20-30 for autographs and people would pay in Toronto because they never seen a championship in their lifetime.

Really? He did that? He actually charged people for an autograph?

 

[The Nic]

Alex Wood would be a solid pick up.

Agree!

 

[phillipmike]

Really? He did that? He actually charged people for an autograph?

Im not bashing the guy as I appreciate what he did for us. But like most players/teams, they only love a player or a city if they can get something out of it. It works both ways, it’s a relationship built on utility for both sides.

Like Bosh. Wanted nothing to do with Toronto after he left but when we are in the finals he comes running to commentate with duthie. He came back for fame and to make some money.

Guys like Bautista and Stroman actually loved Toronto. They still rep the city.