Blue Jays Discussion: The long, slow march of a winter off-season

[phillipmike]

Yay or nay? Every big move this offseason

Dec. 17, 2019: P Shun Yamaguchi signs with Blue Jays
Two years, $6 million
Yamaguchi has spent parts of 14 seasons in Japan, first for Yokohama and then Yomiuri, and now he'll head to Canada, becoming the third pitcher the Blue Jays have added along with Chase Anderson and Tanner Roark. Japanese baseball expert Jim Allen filed a scouting report on Yamaguchi earlier in December and noted that "on a pitch-per-pitch basis, his splitter ... was the most effective in NPB among pitchers with 80-plus innings." Interestingly, his career path is somewhat the opposite of many Major Leaguers, as he began in relief and didn't move to the rotation until his ninth season with Yokohama. After an off-field incident limited him to just 21 innings in 2017, he tossed 156 innings in 2018 and 181 more in 2019.

Assuming Yamaguchi earns a rotation spot, the Blue Jays rotation would likely include Anderson, Roark, Matt Shoemaker, and Trent Thornton, at least to start. That's easily a deeper and more talented group than the one that the Jays endured this past season, though it still seems to be a collection of fourth starters without any real ace. Should they pull off a trade or a last-second signing of Hyun-Jin Ryu, as has been rumored, this could still look a lot different.

Dec. 11, 2019: P Tanner Roark signs with Blue Jays
Two years, $24 million
The 2019 Blue Jays had only three pitchers throw 100 innings, but two of them -- Aaron Sanchez and Marcus Stroman -- were traded before the season ended. The third, Trent Thornton, had a reasonably fine league-average rookie season. And ... that's it. Twenty-one different pitchers started for the Jays, and while some of them were just openers, one of them was also 34-year-old knuckleballer Ryan Feierabend, who hadn't appeared in the bigs since '14.

Needless to say, the Jays entered the winter needing multiple starters. They might still need multiple starters, though adding Chase Anderson (as they did in November) and Roark is a good start, especially if Matt Shoemaker can return healthy. Roark has been a full-time starter in five of the last six years, and in each of those five years, he's made at least 30 starts; his career ERA as a starter is 3.73. He's a perfectly reasonable third or fourth starter, so this is a fine depth deal. The problem is that in Toronto, he may be asked to be more than that.

Nov. 4, 2019: P Chase Anderson traded from Brewers to Blue Jays
Brewers receive Minor League 1B Chad Spanberger
Look, not every move that happens this offseason is going to be earth-shattering, but this one's more interesting than it might appear on the surface. Anderson has started at least 20 games in each of the past six seasons, and over the past three years, his 3.63 ERA (118 ERA+) is an above-average mark. (He also showed a very intriguing cutter.) The 2019 Blue Jays had three pitchers make 20 starts, but both Marcus Stroman and Aaron Sanchez are gone, and Trent Thornton isn't exactly the ace of anyone's rotation. It's merely a start, but for a club that probably needs to add three or four starters this winter, a start matters.

 

[Diamond Joe Quimby]

My mistake!

Fair enough.

Nothing personal at all, quite fun for me, i like showing how illogical some posters are being.

It can be fun.

When i give them failing grades on 3 major moves, i dont know how you can say i defend them blindly. Im just reasonable in my evaluation of a rebuilding team. Like i said we are barely in 2 years of a true rebuild.

I like the direction they have taken in building from within. Rebuilding takes time and i want to see what they built, and so far, i like the prospects they brought in and how the developed. Wish their trades were a bit better but like trades and free agency, you have outside factors where as drafting you can control. The built core will go a long way, like it did for the Leafs and the Raps. Same time i gave AA as well.

Giving them failing grades for moves that have been clearly catastrophic is one thing. Even Zeke can now acknowledge AA trading Dickey for Syndergaard was a joke.

I love the core of prospects. They're doing them a disservice not subsidizing them.

Been through this. You just dont want to see nor accept that its not always about money. Much more factors that ive explained to you already but you dont want to see the reality.

Wheeler didnt want to come here or even go as far as Chicago when they offered him more money. So your example is just plain wrong, we have strong evidence to suggest that Wheeler wanted a specific location and money wouldnt have changed his mind. You think, throw more money and he will come and its just plain wrong.

And Odorizzi? Gibson?

Called being a realist. What was AA's excuse? Hamels didnt want to waive his no trade clause. Ervin Santana backed out on a deal last minute. Could get Ian Kinsler to waive. Jon Lester didnt want to come to Toronto. Reyes and Buerhle didnt want to sign here. Buerhle didnt sound like he wanted to be here after he was traded. Even Danny Green and Kawhi didnt want to be here. Its always been a problem for any GM in Toronto, there are rare rare exceptions but not the rule. Martin is the only recent big name and the reason why he signed is because he was from here and we were in his price range. Realist.

Realist or apologist?

AA didn't have an excuse (though hilariously always seemed to some asinine explanation for not succeeding). He failed miserably as well. And I think this is where we diverge: you seem to be defending this front-office in an active way to combat those individuals who were doing the baseless "hate Shapkins, love AA" shtick. That shtick is dumb.

My goodness, let's stop talking about other sports. They do not apply. Roger Clemens, BJ Ryan AJ Burnett all signed in Toronto.

Wheeler: Staying in this area for my wife's family was very important for me. I rejected more money from Chicago to stay in the Northeast US.
DJQ: Throw more money. Offer limo rides. offer airplanes. LACK OF EXECUTION!!!!

I love this. You have no evidence to suggest that Wheeler walks away from additional funds. You parade the White Sox offer getting turned down as if that somehow proves your hypothesis. All we have is what was leaked: Wheeler's wife wanted to stay near Jersey, and the Jays capped their offer below $100M. I know which part of the equation weighs more heavy for me in my evaluation.

Should the Boston Bruins had offered Tavares limo rides and more money to get him? Because this is how crazy your position sounds. The player had geography on his mind and its not acceptable to you that a free agent had free will to make his own decision> Its not like he decided to not not pick your team, just that he picked one that better suited his preference and family needs. Happens all the time.

Good god man. There's enough baseball examples to remain on topic.

Has been reported that the Jays offered more or similar money to players like Odorizzi, Gibson, Lindblom, Porcello etc. More to it than money. The strong historical evidence is there that Toronto is not a hot spot for free agents.

For Lindblom and Porcello, yes. "More" for Gibson was what exactly? $32 vs. the $30 he got from a city in a tax free state? How about an extra year at the same AAV? Was that tried? How about 3Y/$40M?

There's "offering more", then there's closing. I hate to invoke the words of a mutual old friend, but this ain't the try league.

Matter of opinion. Year 2 of a rebuild, my expectations are realistic and reasonable. Yours arent and if you dont adjust to reality you are going to be pounding your keyboard for years and years and years and not under this front office, many more after it. Even a top executive like Dombrowski spurned the Jays for a better offer with the Red Sox. Coaches like Maddon didnt give the Jays a second look when he went to the Cubs. Girardi was never serious about the Jays.

I wouldn't want to work for them either, quite frankly, given the nonsense I've seen from senior leadership and ownership. Can't blame any of them.

Overpaying maybe 1-2M per for 2 years on Roark is vastly different than overpaying on Wheeler/Ryu with multiple extra years and much higher AAV. Much more risk involved and you know that.

For sure there's a difference. There's a chance one overpayment pays dividends, while the other very much so is meaningless and simply money burned to say I did something. Risk does not standalone; it must always be evaluated with the potential reward, as well as the opportunity cost.

If we are sitting here in year 2 and 3 of our contention window and we have holes in the rotation and we are signing Roarks and Andersons then yeah its a huge problem . In year one we acquired Shoemaker, Buchholz, Richard. This year we aimed higher in Roark and Anderson - i still expect another pitcher, likely better than what we have too. I expect better in year 3 if our young players dont take another step.

If they are sitting here in year 3 and 4 (2020 is year 2 of the cost controlled years of the core) of this window with holes in their rotation and they're signing #5 starters, it will be a huge problem.

 

[Kurtz]

Hmm sounds like we were close on Didi if we were asking our players if they'd shift positions for him. Philly got him for 1/$14, I think I would have been fine offering him more than that.

 

[theaub]

lol @ 'we were close'

Hang a banner for being close this offseason.

 

[ShaneFalco]

lol @ 'we were close'

Hang a banner for being close this offseason.

Or "They were on our radar and then signed elsewhere"

 

[Kurtz]

Man, this board has become as negative on this management team as I'd been on them for the past 2 years. Totally get it, but just don't go full-Zeke yet, people. Only entering year 2 of rebuild (although this should have been year 3 if this management showed some balls earlier on, but I digress...).

 

[theaub]

As DJQ has noted above, my issue is that you shouldn't be "rebuilding" when your best players are already in the majors on pre-arb contracts.

 

[ShaneFalco]

Winfield, Molitor, Morris, Thomas, Stewart

 

[phillipmike]

Winfield, Molitor, Morris, Thomas, Stewart

1990s: Almost 30 years World Series contenders can land top free agents on 1-2 year deals.

2019; rebuilding team in year 2 of a rebuild not an attractive option... yet.

seems very different.

 

[ShaneFalco]

1990s: Almost 30 years World Series contenders can land top free agents on 1-2 year deals.

2019; rebuilding team in year 2 of a rebuild not an attractive option... yet.

seems very different.

Different era for sure but I'm not sure the current management is doing a whole lot to make players want to come here. Either way, right now they're not getting it done, despite their "aggressive" stance

 

[Kurtz]

As DJQ has noted above, my issue is that you shouldn't be "rebuilding" when your best players are already in the majors on pre-arb contracts.

I'm not sure I see the logic there. It's not like we could keep Vlad and Bo down for another 2 years until we actually built up enough vets - they forced our hand by being too good for the minors. They're only entering their 2nd year in the league, and we still have 5 years of control on each (if we're smart, we'll do what AA did and sign them to extensions now to buy up a couple of additional years, but I doubt we'll go that way...too risky for this bunch).

And our impressive crop of pitching prospects is not even here yet. Pearson will be on an innings limit for another year or two, so he won't help too much this year.

I think people are being a little too impatient. The time to be impatient was 2 years ago, when we still had veteran assets with value whom I was begging Shatkins to trade (begging!). They didn't in order to try to appease the fans (hell, veteran posters on this board including the likes of Zeke were suggesting that we might be able to compete for the wildcard) their value sank to nothing, and it delayed our rebuild by a year.

But what's done is done, no use crying over spilled milk. We were never going to be competitive last year, and we won't be this year either. The goal should just be to make smart moves, and then we can blow our load on Paxton and co next off-season when we might actually be ready to compete.

 

[The Nemesis]

I'm not sure I see the logic there. It's not like we could keep Vlad and Bo down for another 2 years until we actually built up enough vets - they forced our hand by being too good for the minors. They're only entering their 2nd year in the league, and we still have 5 years of control on each (if we're smart, we'll do what AA did and sign them to extensions now to buy up a couple of additional years, but I doubt we'll go that way...too risky for this bunch).

And our impressive crop of pitching prospects is not even here yet. Pearson will be on an innings limit for another year or two, so he won't help too much this year.

I think people are being a little too impatient. The time to be impatient was 2 years ago, when we still had veteran assets with value whom I was begging Shatkins to trade (begging!). They didn't in order to try to appease the fans (hell, veteran posters on this board including the likes of Zeke were suggesting that we might be able to compete for the wildcard) their value sank to nothing, and it delayed our rebuild by a year.

But what's done is done, no use crying over spilled milk. We were never going to be competitive last year, and we won't be this year either. The goal should just be to make smart moves, and then we can blow our load on Paxton and co next off-season when we might actually be ready to compete.

In fairness the indication seems to be that it wasn't them who chose not to trade those players for the fans' sake. It was ownership telling them not to move them to appease the fans and continue to suck the fumes of fan interest from those playoff runs.

 

[theaub]

I'm not sure I see the logic there. It's not like we could keep Vlad and Bo down for another 2 years until we actually built up enough vets - they forced our hand by being too good for the minors. They're only entering their 2nd year in the league, and we still have 5 years of control on each (if we're smart, we'll do what AA did and sign them to extensions now to buy up a couple of additional years, but I doubt we'll go that way...too risky for this bunch).

I'm saying the exact opposite. The second their pre-arb/arb clocks start ticking is when you should start to try to compete with them. Five years isn't a long time in baseball. I can fully accept that last year was a rebuilding year. I can accept that this team, even with additions, was never going to be a playoff team this year.

My problem is that you don't just flick the switch and become a good team. So this year is a wash. Then you start to add pieces next year and try to find another...15 wins in 2021? That isn't easy to do, and that's only to be a fringe 85 win wild card team. So realistically now you're targeting 2022 for true contention? Congrats, you've just used up 43% of your affordable Vlad/Bo years on absolutely nothing.

The time to start adding pieces that can be contributors to a very good, contending baseball team in 2021/2022 etc is now. Instead, they've gone and added a bunch of retreads who are marginal improvements en route to another 70 win season. My only hope is that they don't double down on this mistake by "improving" this year's trash team by adding someone like Price who will be absolute dead weight when we need to spend more money over the next couple of years.

 

[Kurtz]

In fairness the indication seems to be that it wasn't them who chose not to trade those players for the fans' sake. It was ownership telling them not to move them to appease the fans and continue to suck the fumes of fan interest from those playoff runs.

Oh yeah, that's exactly what happened. But Shapiro should have had the balls and the interpersonal skills to convince the Rogers accountants that that panacea was going to end up losing them profits in the mid to long term, and he either didn't have the balls or the interpersonal ability to get that done. I can't really absolve him on that.

 

[Kurtz]

I'm saying the exact opposite. The second their pre-arb/arb clocks start ticking is when you should start to try to compete with them. Five years isn't a long time in baseball. I can fully accept that last year was a rebuilding year. I can accept that this team, even with additions, was never going to be a playoff team this year.

My problem is that you don't just flick the switch and become a good team. So this year is a wash. Then you start to add pieces next year and try to find another...15 wins in 2021? That isn't easy to do, and that's only to be a fringe 85 win wild card team. So realistically now you're targeting 2022 for true contention? Congrats, you've just used up 43% of your affordable Vlad/Bo years on absolutely nothing.

The time to start adding pieces that can be contributors to a very good, contending baseball team in 2021/2022 etc is now. Instead, they've gone and added a bunch of retreads who are marginal improvements en route to another 70 win season. My only hope is that they don't double down on this mistake by "improving" this year's trash team by adding someone like Price who will be absolute dead weight when we need to spend more money over the next couple of years.

I dont mind Price if he comes with 40 percent retained - I think at below $20 mil he won't disturb our payroll too much, and he's a great teammate who can still be a quality rotation piece for 3 years (hell, he'd easily be our #1 right now).

But I generally agree with the rest of ur post. Ur right, generally u don't just go from 70 wins to 95 in a year. We should be aiming to build an 80 win team for next year.

 

[phillipmike]

Different era for sure but I'm not sure the current management is doing a whole lot to make players want to come here. Either way, right now they're not getting it done, despite their "aggressive" stance

It’s a matter of opinion. I have the opinion that in most cases management has very little to do in luring players here. Each player has their own needs or wants.

To me all management can do is control winning and money. And I think a good example of that is the Raptors. We just won a championship and 2 starters didn’t want to stay and the top free agents were even considering a meeting with us.

Masai is one of the best GMs in the league and he couldn’t get Kawhi or Green to stay. And before that the best free agent we got a meeting with was LaMarcus Aldridge and we didn’t get him. Best FA signing was Demare Carroll and we needed to trade a first round pick to get rid of him.

When we were garbage Stamkos didn’t want to sign here. When we are good here comes Tavares. Before Tavares it was Clarkson. Burke couldn’t get meetings without Parise and/or Suter after knowing them on the US team. Top Players have their mind made up because they are top players, they have that luxury. If Roark had 20+ teams after him, he would be a Jay.

Almost all of Toronto’s big signings came because of ties to the city in Tavares, Martin and Clarkson. Carroll signed with the Raps because we overpaid. We got the player but he didn’t make our team much better and we had to pay to get rid of him. Same goes for Marleau, ate a first rounder to get rid of him. Ate 18M to get rid of Martin.

 

[Mach85]

I think most of us are understanding of the vagaries of the market, but when a team is consistently "close" on players but doesn't sign them despite having an inordinate amount of cap space...it starts to feel like the will isn't there. Overpaying for a Gibson or a Didi or an Odorizzi isn't going to throw this team's salary structure out of whack, and it can easily be argued as a rational "irrational" move when there are so many holes in the rotation and young players that need insulating.

 

[theaub]

Think we need to cut it with the Raps example. Kawhi is a unique case, Green wanted to stay here but the Raps didn't want to go deeper into the tax to sign him after Kawhi left, and no FA's took meetings with us because it was literally impossible for us to offer more than the MLE to anyone.

 

[phillipmike]

I think most of us are understanding of the vagaries of the market, but when a team is consistently "close" on players but doesn't sign them despite having an inordinate amount of cap space...it starts to feel like the will isn't there. Overpaying for a Gibson or a Didi or an Odorizzi isn't going to throw this team's salary structure out of whack, and it can easily be argued as a rational "irrational" move when there are so many holes in the rotation and young players that need insulating.

Can be close on the FO's side and say well this free agent signed for 40M and we offered 38M. Or they signed for 9M and we offer 12M, so we offered more. So the player can say all the right things and say i love your team but i want to go somewhere else. Agents and players dont burn bridges and tell front offices the truth, that they never were taken seriously. They need that good will.

Masai truly believed that he was close to re-signing Kawhi. He thought he was right there. Depending who you ask, including Kawhi, his motivation was always to play closer to home and Toronto isnt anywhere near LA. So i seriously doubt Toronto was close to anything with Kawhi. So the FO or even media might depict that it is close, but for a player's sake they know their top choice(s).

 

[Discoverer]

They're only entering their 2nd year in the league, and we still have 5 years of control on each (if we're smart, we'll do what AA did and sign them to extensions now to buy up a couple of additional years, but I doubt we'll go that way...too risky for this bunch).

Kluber, Carrasco, Kipnis, Gomes, Santana, Brantley, Sizemore...

Before coming to Toronto, signing guys to multi-year deals, usually covering some free agent seasons, was a regular strategy for Shapiro-lead teams. I don't see why we should possible look at it as "too risky" a strategy now.

 

[Kurtz]

Kluber, Carrasco, Kipnis, Gomes, Santana, Brantley, Sizemore...

Before coming to Toronto, signing guys to multi-year deals, usually covering some free agent seasons, was a regular strategy for Shapiro-lead teams. I don't see why we should possible look at it as "too risky" a strategy now.

Fair enough. I'm hoping they can execute the same thing here with Vlad and Bo. Like I've been advocating for a while - if you can't find a good way to spend our cap surplus this year and next, then there's no better way to spend it than by paying off Vlad and Bo now in order to buy up a couple of arbitration years and 1-2 ufa years at a discount, when we should theoretically be in a cap crunch.

I'm fairly confident that Rogers won't just carry over any unspent budget we have this year into future years, so this would be a perfect way to circumvent that.

 

[phillipmike]

Giving them failing grades for moves that have been clearly catastrophic is one thing. Even Zeke can now acknowledge AA trading Dickey for Syndergaard was a joke.

I doubt zeke would. He is incapable of admitting when he is wrong.

Zeke: Goins never started on a Jays opening day roster when AA was the GM.
phillipmike: Blue Jays Discussion: - Winter Discontent III: Discontent with a Vengeance
Zeke: Blue Jays Discussion: - Winter Discontent III: Discontent with a Vengeance
Blue Jays Discussion: - Winter Discontent III: Discontent with a Vengeance

I love the core of prospects. They're doing them a disservice not subsidizing them.

They have more than this off-season to subsidize them and you know that. We have Vladdy, Bo and Biggio for 6 more years... i see 4-5 more off-seasons to subsidize them. Similar to the Leafs, all improvements didnt come in one off-season. Freddy in one. Marleau in another (which ended up hurting the team long term), Tavares after that, Muzzin in season, and then Barrie and Kerfoot next off-season. All comes in stages.

If you dont like hockey references. Then look no further than the Jays.

2013: Marlins trade
2014: nothing much
2015: Martin and Donaldson - then Price, Tulo well you knew what happened

And Odorizzi? Gibson?

Maybe Odorrizi passed or maybe Jays passed, and i would too. Im not giving up 5th pick in the 2nd round of a draft plus IFA money to overpay for mid tier starter.

From short term + long term perspective: Roark + 5th pick in the 2nd round and IFA money >> Odorizzi.

Diversifying your assets. Guess who is a free agent next year when you have a better idea of what your team is/needs, Jake Odorizzi with no compensation lost.

Takes 2 to tango, Odorizzi bet on himself to decline the market this year and wanted to re-enter in a weaker market with no draft compensation attached to him. It made perfect sense at the time; but maybe his agent is doubting that now after what some starters got.

Believe if you want but Shapiro was interviewed and said Gibson wanted Texas and wanted to play his spring training games out of Arizona. Weak excuse but i dont see much difference in Gibson and Roark and if there is, im not losing sleeping over it.

Realist or apologist?

AA didn't have an excuse (though hilariously always seemed to some asinine explanation for not succeeding). He failed miserably as well. And I think this is where we diverge: you seem to be defending this front-office in an active way to combat those individuals who were doing the baseless "hate Shapkins, love AA" shtick. That shtick is dumb.

Definitely realist. I loved hiring Shapiro over Beeston. I never was a Beeston fan. But when i found our AA was leaving too? I was pissed because we replaced him with Atkins. I was with Bob McCowan when he said why are we hiring guys from Cleveland with little success?

Shapiro and AA; i was ecstatic.
Shapiro and Atkins - absolutely pissed. Atkins could get fire today for all i care. Would an apologist say that?

So Shapiro, AA and JP all failed in almost 20 years with the exceptt of one off-season where JP got Burnett and Ryan and another where we got Martin. 2 out 19 off-seasons shows me that is the exception, not the rule.

My goodness, let's stop talking about other sports. They do not apply. Roger Clemens, BJ Ryan AJ Burnett all signed in Toronto.

My goodness, can we use examples from this decade?

Clemens: 23 years ago.
Ryan and Burnett: 13 years ago. Burnett opted to take more money to play for a better team. Ryan's arm blew off.

I love this. You have no evidence to suggest that Wheeler walks away from additional funds. You parade the White Sox offer getting turned down as if that somehow proves your hypothesis. All we have is what was leaked: Wheeler's wife wanted to stay near Jersey, and the Jays capped their offer below $100M. I know which part of the equation weighs more heavy for me in my evaluation.

If you believe what is leaked re: wheeler's wife wanting to stay near Jersey and the Jays offer being less than 100M then you have to believe what was leaked re: turning down more money from Chicago.

https://www.nbcsports.com/chicago/w...id-zack-wheeler-who-took-less-stay-east-coast

According to a source, the White Sox made a higher five-year offer to free-agent pitcher Zack Wheeler than the reported $118 million deal he received from the Philadelphia Phillies. Family considerations, reported to be Wheeler's fiancee's preference to stay close to home, were the deciding factor. Our Chuck Garfien reported that the White Sox contract offer was worth more than $120 million, with the highest amount of guaranteed money Wheeler was offered.

Good god man. There's enough baseball examples to remain on topic.

If you cant see the relevance of comparing sports and the same issues the city has across their 3 major sports then you are being willfully ignorant.

Some wont go too much in depth about why they chose this team over another. I believe it was Jimmy Butler who said something about Kawhi/US players wanting to play in the States as he insinuated that if he had close family member that couldnt leave the state or country (either had a record or physically couldnt travel) to see him play then playing at home would allow that. I believe it was a baseball player (i think Pujols) who's kid has autism and they prefer certain locations that had the best hospitals to help with their child's development. And on the same level some children with autism do not like what is associated with travelling. So throwing limos or airplane rides at players may not help anything. I know boohoo, you dont care about what players want.

For Lindblom and Porcello, yes. "More" for Gibson was what exactly? $32 vs. the $30 he got from a city in a tax free state? How about an extra year at the same AAV? Was that tried? How about 3Y/$40M?

Maybe they didnt want to spend 40M on Gibson. They made their evaluation and made their offer, sure they could offer more money to MAYBE get the deal done but if you dont see it being worthwhile, then you move on.

There's "offering more", then there's closing. I hate to invoke the words of a mutual old friend, but this ain't the try league.

aka overpaying when a rebuilding team doesnt need to. Wait until you get better, where you dont need to overpay.

I wouldn't want to work for them either, quite frankly, given the nonsense I've seen from senior leadership and ownership. Can't blame any of them.

There you go, you have free will and hypnotically you dont want to come to the Jays!

For sure there's a difference. There's a chance one overpayment pays dividends, while the other very much so is meaningless and simply money burned to say I did something. Risk does not standalone; it must always be evaluated with the potential reward, as well as the opportunity cost.

Glad we agree there is a difference.

If they are sitting here in year 3 and 4 (2020 is year 2 of the cost controlled years of the core) of this window with holes in their rotation and they're signing #5 starters, it will be a huge problem.

An enormous problem!

 

[Leafin]

I don't see a problem with calling out a front office after a weak start to an offseason. There are only a certain number of free agents that can move the needle significantly. What Shatkins have done is really just raise the floor of a 67 win team to a ~70. Maybe a few of our prospects pop off and carry the rotation. I'd be happy with that no doubt but until i see it...

It sure isn't the start of the offseason i had hoped this team would have.

 

[phillipmike]

Think we need to cut it with the Raps example. Kawhi is a unique case,

Kawhi isnt unique. Many players want to play close to home or with a team they have roots with and sometimes far away from money and even winning. We have seen that more and more.

Green wanted to stay here but the Raps didn't want to go deeper into the tax to sign him after Kawhi left, and

Danny Green had no plans to return to Raptors, report says

no FA's took meetings with us because it was literally impossible for us to offer more than the MLE to anyone.

If players really wanted to come here we would have made a fit. Have a ridiculous amount of expiring deals that we could use ni a sign and trade.

Toronto isnt a free agent destination in the NBA, MLB and to a lesser extent NHL.

 

[Leafin]

Can't wait for Masai to work his magic and get Giannis here.