Blue Jays Discussion: The long, slow march of a winter off-season

[canucksfan]

I don't understand the doom and gloom around the team. The team is young. They have a single year of development in the league when it comes to the young core. There is no need to go ALL in, just get some decent pitching and see what they can do and then assess from there. Without the chance to even sniff at getting Cole, there isn't much the FO could have done to massively improve the starting rotation in a single go. Let Pearson and co. develop and go from there.

My main critique is the lack of starting pitching so far. Need some to not force the younger pitchers do the heavy lifting. Furthermore, while I don't expect it, if the offence clicks, then Jays might be in a playoff race but with the starters they have now there is slim to none chance.

 

[hockeywiz542]

Toronto Blue Jays betting on a bounce back year for Travis Shaw - TSN.ca

Coming off the worst season of his career, one that forced the Milwaukee Brewers to non-tender the 29-year-old infielder earlier this month rather than pay him around $5 million in salary for 2020, the Blue Jays believe Shaw is closer to the 30-homer left-handed bat he was in 2017 and 2018 than one of the worst hitters in baseball, which is exactly what he was this past season.

There’s no getting around the fact Shaw was bad — really bad — in 2019, slashing just .157/.281/.270 with seven home runs in 270 trips to the plate, output that earned the five-year veteran a pair of trips to Triple-A.

But prior to cratering in his age-29 season, Shaw had been worth a total of 7.1 fWAR — 3.5 in ’17 and 3.6 in ’18 — and had posted back-to-back 30-homer campaigns for the Brew Crew, helping further the nickname Mayor of Ding Dong City, a moniker given to him during his time with the Boston Red Sox, the club that drafted him in the ninth round of the 2011 draft out of Kent State University.

With the Brewers pivoting to former Blue Jay Justin Smoak at first base this week, the Jays and Shaw were an obvious match.

If Shaw can rediscover his stroke in 2020, he’ll help lengthen a Blue Jays lineup that has just one other left-handed hitter, Cavan Biggio, slated to hit in the top half of manager Charlie Montoyo’s lineup.

The plan is to play Shaw at first base almost every day, but he can also move around to third base — his best position at plus-26 Defensive Runs Saved over his career — and second base on occasion.

That versatility gives Montoyo the ability to use Guerrero Jr. more as the DH, especially if versatile infielder Brandon Drury struggles with the bat in spring training and doesn’t make the club.

Another aspect drawing the Jays to Shaw is the fact he’s still arbitration eligible in 2021, giving them another year of team control at a reasonable cost if he does, indeed, rebound.

If that happens, you could make the case it would be in the best interest of the club to flip-flop Shaw and Vladdy Jr. by opening day 2021 in order to make the most out of the veteran's glove and let the kid start getting used to the spot most believe will end up being his long-term position in the not so distant future anyway.

Even with the versatility, cheap price tag, and past history of big-league production, Shaw, unsurprisingly, does come with some warts.

 

[jcollins]

I know keep talking about price, but why would we help Boston out of their financial mess

 

[The Nemesis]

heads up that I'll be switching the thread over in a bit. I should've done it already but I hadn't even noticed we were as far past 1k as we are. So I'm just going to watch for a bit of a lull in conversation and make the change then so that nobody gets a post they're making cut off by the closure.

 

[kb]

heads up that I'll be switching the thread over in a bit. I should've done it already but I hadn't even noticed we were as far past 1k as we are. So I'm just going to watch for a bit of a lull in conversation and make the change then so that nobody gets a post they're making cut off by the closure.

That's a great id....

 

[hockeywiz542]

According to The Athletic's Ken Rosenthal:

The three months David Price spent with the Blue Jays in 2015 were among the most enjoyable of his career. The Jays are in a different place now, with a different front office. Price, 34, is more expensive and less durable. But he again might prove a solution for Toronto, which is exploring all avenues to improve its starting pitching.

The signing of free-agent left-hander Hyun-Jin Ryu remains one possibility for the Jays, but the team also is talking to the Red Sox about a trade for Price, according to major-league sources. A deal only will come to fruition if the clubs agree on how much the Red Sox will pay of the $96 million remaining in the final three years of Price’s contract. Such an agreement is not close at this time, and the Red Sox are talking to other clubs about Price and examining different options as well, sources said.

In possible trades of Price and Eovaldi, the Sox are looking at a sliding scale – the more money they include, the better the package they will receive. They also can attach talent to one or both of the pitchers to make them more attractive, and perhaps reduce the amount of cash in the deal.

 

[The Nemesis]

**** the Red Sox. They signed that contract and now they can deal with the consequences. Nothing the Red Sox have and would be willing to give is worth it as an offset to absorbing his awful contract and letting them free up money to do stuff that further hurts the Jays like retaining Betts.

Also if I can be permitted to mix a bunch of metaphors, the countdown clock to Price's irrelevancy is on and I wouldn't want to be holding the bag when he turns into a pumpkin.

 

[LeafChief]

**** the Red Sox. They signed that contract and now they can deal with the consequences. Nothing the Red Sox have and would be willing to give is worth it as an offset to absorbing his awful contract and letting them free up money to do stuff that further hurts the Jays like retaining Betts.

Also if I can be permitted to mix a bunch of metaphors, the countdown clock to Price's irrelevancy is on and I wouldn't want to be holding the bag when he turns into a pumpkin.

I'm not as familiar with the Sox system. If they included 1 of their top 3 prospects with him while eating a bunch of money, would that be something to consider?

I'm not going to pretend I know the ins and outs of baseball so I'm genuinely curious.

 

[Puckstuff]

I know keep talking about price, but why would we help Boston out of their financial mess

Agreed. Although if they want to give us Price at 50 % for 3 years i'll entertain the idea

 

[Anthrax442]

 

[Cor]

I know keep talking about price, but why would we help Boston out of their financial mess

I think the idea is hoping Price can turn things around a bit, while at the same time getting another asset or two from Boston depending on how much cash they retain

 

[kb]

Price, Ryu, Roark, Shoemaker, Anderson.

How many wins does that get you?

 

[jcollins]

I think the idea is hoping Price can turn things around a bit, while at the same time getting another asset or two from Boston depending on how much cash they retain

I get the thinking behind it. But if they're handcuffed with his contract and can't do other things as a result....screw them.

 

[LeafChief]

I get the thinking behind it. But if they're handcuffed with his contract and can't do other things as a result....screw them.

In reality, someone is going to take Price from Boston and they're going to be able to make other moves.

If Price is coming retained and with assets, why not us?

 

[Cor]

In reality, someone is going to take Price from Boston and they're going to be able to make other moves.

If Price is coming retained and with assets, why not us?

This is the main thing.

We can take the chance on Price. We can afford to take his contract with less retention than others need. We can use other assets.

It’s not like it’s us or Boston is stuck. Someone will do it

 

[The Nemesis]

I'm not as familiar with the Sox system. If they included 1 of their top 3 prospects with him while eating a bunch of money, would that be something to consider?

I'm not going to pretend I know the ins and outs of baseball so I'm genuinely curious.

Their top 3 prospects are mostly disappointing/underwhelming

 

[kb]

I get the thinking behind it. But if they're handcuffed with his contract and can't do other things as a result....screw them.

Problem is....once he is traded for a meager return elsewhere, people are going to be screaming that the Jays could have improved their rotation but let the chance get away.

If Boston wants to move him.....why wouldn't the Jays be interesting if it's a foregone conclusion that they will move him.

 

[LeafChief]

Their top 3 prospects are mostly disappointing/underwhelming

What would the move need to look like for it to make sense for the Jays in your opinion? Or are you firm in the belief that there is no situation in which it works?

 

[CatchyTune]

Yeah lets help a division rival out of their reckless spending. They can keep Price unless they add to him or pay a large portion of his contract.

 

[landy92mack29]

The only way I'd take on Price even if the Sox ate money on his deal is if Benintendi was also included as their system is trash.

Not a big fan of the Shaw signing but hopefully he bounces back. Still hope they sign EE though

 

[The Nemesis]

What would the move need to look like for it to make sense for the Jays in your opinion? Or are you firm in the belief that there is no situation in which it works?

I'm honestly not sure what would make a deal like this work. Their pool is a weird mishmash of guys with significant holes/warts, longshots, and positional overlap with what the Jays don't need (batless toolsy athlete outfielders, low-end utility guys, or bat-first corner infielders among position prospects, and fringey probable relievers in their pitching set). And I don't think they want to give up anyone of value off their MLB roster since their intent is contention now. I'd honestly ask for the moon in Benintendi if the Red Sox expected me to eat Price's whole salary, but they would obviously laugh and say 'hell no' and I wouldn't blame them. I don't think they have the depth to spare elsewhere to offer up something intriguing. I wouldn't want their bench parts or next wave guys in AAA (Marcus Wilson, for example, is like a maybe-a-little-less-crappy Keon Broxton)

Problem is....once he is traded for a meager return elsewhere, people are going to be screaming that the Jays could have improved their rotation but let the chance get away.

If Boston wants to move him.....why wouldn't the Jays be interesting if it's a foregone conclusion that they will move him.

My concern is that as much as we as Jays fans wouldn't want to help the Sox make themselves better/more financially stable, I also can believe that the Red Sox would also rather not allow such a move to benefit a division rival vs some other random team that is less concern to them (like some do-nothing NL club like the Marlins or Giants. Not that I'm suggesting a cheap team like Miami would be in on this, it's just a 'for instance' suggestion). So if I'm the Jays I want a better return to take on Price than would be the expected value in a vacuum, and if I'm Boston I want to give back less to a potential competitor like the Jays than I'd probably be comfortable giving to a team that is far more unlikely to ever be a big problem short of a World Series meetup. It just ends up being something that disappoints everyone and ends up unpalatable all the way around (if Price sucks the trade looks like a waste because the accompanying pieces won't be good enough. If Boston uses the savings to retain Betts or make other improvements it becomes "OMG why did we have to help them be in a better position to beat us")

 

[Discoverer]

I don't understand how people are still looking at this as "Don't help Boston out!" as if they think moving Price isn't going to hurt Boston. They're either giving up significant assets (which they can't really afford to do) or retaining significant salary (which seems way more likely to me).

I mean... Boston's rotation depth is already really, really terrible. If they pay $15 million per year for nothing instead of $32 million per year for Price, are they really in a better situation?

(For the record, I think Betts reached free agency regardless of how much payroll space Boston opens up.)

 

[The Nemesis]

New thread:

Blue Jays Discussion: - ... Is it still winter? *checks watch* Yep.