Post-Game Talk (GBU): The Kids, The Vets, and the Powerplay

[enthusiast]

I didn't see this game, but I look at those PP numbers and the shot ratio and have to question the coaching

 

[Myllz]

Did Pierre grow or did that box he stand in get smaller? Fairly pleased for the first game I saw. If Vanek and 1 other can get rolling, we would do much better. I'll take it for a start to the season.

They shortened the amount of space he has in there.

 

[FanboySlayer*]

GBU to come. But first:

I'm immediately alarmed by this coachig staff. Don't care if it was one game.

You cannot. CAN NOTTTTT. Come out in game one of the season, in Detroit, in a game against a team like the Red Wings, in a high, passive 1-2-2 forecheck that is so passive it could pose as a trap.

Is that serious? In what alternate universe are we considered to be sound defensively as a team? Nevermind against a team like Detroit; we don't have the personnel to run that against ANY team, really. Detroit has skilled puck carriers who know how to find lanes, and defensemen that make solid first passes if given ample time. In no way would a high 1-2-2 forecheck come close to "correct forecheck deployment".

COME ON.

no coincidence that as soon as we pressured them we started to create offense.

What a terrible way to start as a coaching staff in my eyes. A brutal display of poor preparation.

agreed, disappointed in Rolston.

Our personnel dictates we have to be a dump n' chase aggressive forechecking team. The reason our puck possession is so bad is we don't have the players to gain the blue line and hang on to the puck and make a smart accurate pass. So give up on that, and dump and chase like bats out of hell. But as far as game planning each individual team we play - pointless, we aren't good enough to execute so we need to keep it simple, real simple and it's all based on effort. Effort isn't a strong point for us either.

My optimism for a competitive season hinged on a resurgent Myers and a change in team personality with the influx of some energetic youth.

 

[dire wolf]

Tonight he was pretty much ****. The puck came to die on his stick -- the bad pass to Myers in his wheelhouse on the second five-on-three was a perfect isolation of what was going wrong for him.

Yeah, Pierre said that. It wasn't a good pass, but it wasn't terrible. Might have even been deflected.

 

[jBuds]

Why do we insist on maintaining the Ruff "Babcock taught me this!" PP break in?

Dropping off to a trailer in the neutral zone, while the passer and other three forwards stand STATIONARY, is ineffective.

And what's even more maddening? The guy who gets the drop pass ends up dumping the puck in!!!!! For ****s sake!!! How do you expect to win a race to a puck in the corner when your 4 teammates start their chase from a DEAD STANDSTILL???

The guy who dumps it may be moving, but he certainly won't win the race to the corner to retrieve his own dump in when he has to navigate and weave in and out of 5-6 stationary pylons

 

[dire wolf]

Good: Possler on a 5-game goal-scoring streak for MODO.

 

[dire wolf]

Why do we insist on maintaining the Ruff "Babcock taught me this!" PP break in?

Dropping off to a trailer in the neutral zone, while the passer and other three forwards stand STATIONARY, is ineffective.

And what's even more maddening? The guy who gets the drop pass ends up dumping the puck in!!!!! For ****s sake!!! How do you expect to win a race to a puck in the corner when your 4 teammates start their chase from a DEAD STANDSTILL???

The guy who dumps it may be moving, but he certainly won't win the race to the corner to retrieve his own dump in when he has to navigate and weave in and out of 5-6 stationary pylons

I agree with this, and it's been driving me mad for 2 years now. HOWEVER, we had pretty good zone entries on a couple of power plays tonight and it didn't make a damn bit of difference - the PP still sucked. Someone nailed it above -- too much standing around is the biggest problem.

 

[littletonhockeycoach]

agreed, disappointed in Rolston.

Our personnel dictates we have to be a dump n' chase aggressive forechecking team. The reason our puck possession is so bad is we don't have the players to gain the blue line and hang on to the puck and make a smart accurate pass. So give up on that, and dump and chase like bats out of hell. But as far as game planning each individual team we play - pointless, we aren't good enough to execute so we need to keep it simple, real simple and it's all based on effort. Effort isn't a strong point for us either.

My optimism for a competitive season hinged on a resurgent Myers and a change in team personality with the influx of some energetic youth.

You may be right because we seem be missing the speed and skill necessary to gain the blue line with possession and control. Even though the latter is the game of our more talented forwards - i.e.; pin point passing and puck possession.... Hodgson, Ennis, Leino, Vanek, Grigs... Most are not dump and chasers... that's what Porter, Kaleta, Cody Mac and Flynn, Foligno are about... Not as much talent there so we may be stuck with a bunch of guys who can't play the (skill) game they like to play and yet are unable to play the physical grinding game you are looking for.

Personally, I'm not a fan of dump and chase. I've always hated the idea of voluntarily giving up possession of the puck to the other team and then having to try and fight to get it back. Rarely works consistently over an 82 game season unless you have supreme lunch pail work ethic guys like the Bruins had in the 80's and '90's.

I'd rather see us revert to Ruff's transition defense and counterattack approach than dump and chase. Which (the latter) also ensures that Vanek will be out of here sooner than later.

 

[jBuds]

I agree with this, and it's been driving me mad for 2 years now. HOWEVER, we had pretty good zone entries on a couple of power plays tonight and it didn't make a damn bit of difference - the PP still sucked. Someone nailed it above -- too much standing around is the biggest problem.

Those entries were atypical, with quick tape to tape passes, and guys crossing and finding lanes, especially in the neutral zone.

Too much standing around, and too much work up top with only two guys (and Myers refusing to shoot). Also need to start making catchable passes. Too many passes to the off hand or in feet.

 

[jBuds]

You may be right because we seem be missing the speed and skill necessary to gain the blue line with possession and control. Even though the latter is the game of our more talented forwards - i.e.; pin point passing and puck possession.... Hodgson, Ennis, Leino, Vanek, Grigs... Most are not dump and chasers... that's what Porter, Kaleta, Cody Mac and Flynn, Foligno are about... Not as much talent there so we may be stuck with a bunch of guys who can't play the (skill) game they like to play and yet are unable to play the physical grinding game you are looking for.

Personally, I'm not a fan of dump and chase. I've always hated the idea of voluntarily giving up possession of the puck to the other team and then having to try and fight to get it back. Rarely works consistently over an 82 game season unless you have supreme lunch pail work ethic guys like the Bruins had in the 80's and '90's.

I'd rather see us revert to Ruff's transition defense and counterattack approach than dump and chase. Which (the latter) also ensures that Vanek will be out of here sooner than later.

You can't look at the dump and chase strictly as voluntarily giving up puck possession. If you do it right, it's an effective way to make sure the puck stays in your offensive zone. I think we have a handful of puck possession players, but the grander theme is that we need to be crisper and faster to immediately stretch opponents out and become threatening.

 

[Luceni]

I still think our defensemen did a solid job last night. They tried to keep it simple and looked somehow "fresher" than our offense lines (except GGF).

I wonder if anyone else hade the same feeling?

 

[dire wolf]

Anyone see the clip of Patrick Roy going after Boudreau after Lovejoy kneed Mackinnon? Wish we had a little more fire behind the bench.

Boudreau's a punk-@@@-$$$$$ anyway.

 

[Kyndig]

For how young and inexperienced we are and considering we have practically a rookie coach, only losing 2-1 to a cup contender isn't too bad. They played mediocre and still had a chance of snatching a point. I don't think we finish in the bottom 10 this year, I think our 1st rounder will be in the 11-16 range. We will either just miss the playoffs or sneak in.

If we can play ~.500 hockey in October then I can see us playing much better after that once the youngings get a few games under their belt. I mean one of our dmen is an 18 year old in his first NHL game and we also have 2 19 year olds playing prominently up front. Sprinkle in AHL/NHL tweener players like Flynn, McCormick and Porter I don't think we can expect too much at first.

Oddly enough despite how terrible we played, I'm optimistic like you on this one. I thought the youngsters were great even Ennis here and there. Hodgson was completely invisible this game though....

 

[littletonhockeycoach]

You can't look at the dump and chase strictly as voluntarily giving up puck possession. If you do it right, it's an effective way to make sure the puck stays in your offensive zone. I think we have a handful of puck possession players, but the grander theme is that we need to be crisper and faster to immediately stretch opponents out and become threatening.

Jbuds; love talking hockey with you but I can't bring myself to that level of sophistication re: dump and chase..... All I know (from personal experience) is that when you ain't got the talent to beat guys 1 on 1 with passes and/or moves, put the puck deep or on net and work your heinne off to beat the other guys to it.

Workin' man's hockey

At least that's what I ended up regressing to in my brief "career" as a forward.

 

[littletonhockeycoach]

Anyone see the clip of Patrick Roy going after Boudreau after Lovejoy kneed Mackinnon? Wish we had a little more fire behind the bench.

Boudreau's a punk-@@@-$$$$$ anyway.

Exactly.... as posted earlier in this thread and on the GDT!

 

[dire wolf]

Exactly.... as posted earlier in this thread and on the GDT!

oops. some of us tend to be fashionable late to the party.

 

[Myllz]

Roy's ****ing awesome, I'd totally love to have him here. If only we had a coaching vacancy this past summer where we could've conducted interviews with potential candidates.

Oh wait.

 

[FanboySlayer*]

You may be right because we seem be missing the speed and skill necessary to gain the blue line with possession and control. Even though the latter is the game of our more talented forwards - i.e.; pin point passing and puck possession.... Hodgson, Ennis, Leino, Vanek, Grigs... Most are not dump and chasers... that's what Porter, Kaleta, Cody Mac and Flynn, Foligno are about... Not as much talent there so we may be stuck with a bunch of guys who can't play the (skill) game they like to play and yet are unable to play the physical grinding game you are looking for.

Personally, I'm not a fan of dump and chase. I've always hated the idea of voluntarily giving up possession of the puck to the other team and then having to try and fight to get it back. Rarely works consistently over an 82 game season unless you have supreme lunch pail work ethic guys like the Bruins had in the 80's and '90's.

I'd rather see us revert to Ruff's transition defense and counterattack approach than dump and chase. Which (the latter) also ensures that Vanek will be out of here sooner than later.

Well that's the no man's land the Sabres and all mediocre and bad teams are in - we don't have the talent to play any one style of game to a degree of real competence. so you find the style that best matches what we do have.

But we really don't have the talent to gain the blueline with passes, speed and stickhandling. Hodgson can be pushed and ridden off the puck easily. Ennis can but just as often as not he can be manhandled.

Tonight was sobering, I forgot how poor a passing team we are and how much Sabres players are standing still or in a slow glide - reflects poorly on Rolston, that was a long training camp he had to work on this crap. The power play really reflects poorly on him.

The positive is that it was the first game, on the road against a very good team and only lost 2-1. We beat Ottawa on Friday and it will seem a lot brighter.

I think most of these players are capable of more, why we can't it out of them is perplexing - we ditched the grumpy taskmaster coach and now have the gentler teacher, tonight it didn't look like it changed a thing.

 

[dire wolf]

Roy's ****ing awesome, I'd totally love to have him here. If only we had a coaching vacancy this past summer where we could've conducted interviews with potential candidates.

Oh wait.

Instead, we got their cast-off as an assistant

 

[littletonhockeycoach]

You can't look at the dump and chase strictly as voluntarily giving up puck possession. If you do it right, it's an effective way to make sure the puck stays in your offensive zone. I think we have a handful of puck possession players, but the grander theme is that we need to be crisper and faster to immediately stretch opponents out and become threatening.

Yep, Like the 2005-07 edition of the team.

I have my doubts that it's going to happen with the current group of forwards....... Hopefully, our prospects have these attributes.... And the coaching is gearing towards this direction.

 

[dire wolf]

Jbuds; love talking hockey with you but I can't bring myself to that level of sophistication re: dump and chase..... All I know (from personal experience) is that when you ain't got the talent to beat guys 1 on 1 with passes and/or moves, put the puck deep or on net and work your heinne off to beat the other guys to it.

Workin' man's hockey

At least that's what I ended up regressing to in my brief "career" as a forward.

Yes, but when it's done well, it just looks like a team with a punishing forecheck. I think putting Foligno and Larsson in would help a bit with that. And if someone could remind Stafford that his contract is almost up, maybe he can get his forecheck on. We know he's capable of it when he wants to.

 

[littletonhockeycoach]

oops. some of us tend to be fashionable late to the party.

naw... just agreeing with you.

 

[littletonhockeycoach]

Yes, but when it's done well, it just looks like a team with a punishing forecheck. I think putting Foligno and Larsson in would help a bit with that. And if someone could remind Stafford that his contract is almost up, maybe he can get his forecheck on. We know he's capable of it when he wants to.

Let's see what RonRon comes back with in a game or two. The man's got to be seeing the obvious... right? Foligno can play that way - hope he's realized that his tendency to dangle his way thru opponents last year was a complete failure. And I've heard nothing but good things about the Larsson.

Stafford? I can't figure him out except to think that's he'd really rather be doing something else with his life than playing hockey..........

 

[jBuds]

Jbuds; love talking hockey with you but I can't bring myself to that level of sophistication re: dump and chase..... All I know (from personal experience) is that when you ain't got the talent to beat guys 1 on 1 with passes and/or moves, put the puck deep or on net and work your heinne off to beat the other guys to it.

Workin' man's hockey

At least that's what I ended up regressing to in my brief "career" as a forward.

Same to you. I guess I'm trying to say that when you execute the dump and chase properly, offensive zone time increases. Things that need to happen for that:

- observance. If you don't have a land, put the puck in deep. Neutral zone turnovers are killer.

- put the puck in a position to be retrieved.
::::::::NO- a hard wrap around to a side on which your teammate is changing, and there are no teammates over there, just opponents. YES-a lob into te far corner when your teammate on the opposite wing is coming through the neutral zone with a full head of steam

- intelligence. Understand that your job as the first guy is to separate the puck from the opponent retrieving it. You have to know when to follow through with a check versus when to force them up one way with stick pressure.

- the second guy has to have his head on a swivel and know what to do when he goes to retrieve the puck in the event the first guy in is successful

- the third guy is crucial. Low enough to be a support option and an outlet, high enough to retreat back if the other team is quick out with it or goes off the glass.

- weak side dman aware that he's the last line of defense, and needs to cut the ice in half

I support the dump and chase, but I prefer it when it's mixed in with some selective puck possession from guys capable of that. We have a few.

 

[jBuds]

Vanek looked disinterested and mentally checked out. Espo on XM today thinks we gave Vanek the captaincy in an effort to preemptively strike against Vanek pouting. That's a stretch, but Vanek looked a little bit.... Sulky tonight.