Post-Game Talk (GBU): The Kids, The Vets, and the Powerplay

joshjull

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Aug 2, 2005
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How do you make a line irrelevant for most of the night? play Ennis at center


I would argue the probelm was more Leino on that line and Leino and Ennis together. IMO they just don't mesh at all.

You know what I hated about tonight? No passion/hustle and little physical play.

Yeah, Regier's fingerprints are still all over this team. **** can this guy before it's too late, Terry.

Can't hit what you can't catch. The Wings were moving the puck beautifully and rarely held the puck long enough to get hit.

Something you'd expect with a lineup containing Flynn, Porter, Grigs, Stafford, Kaleta, McCormick, Ott, etc.

Or give that first guy more of a green light to go lower and put a TAD BIT of pressure on Detroit's D.

That was mind blowing.

I don't think letting the first guy in a 1-2-2 go lower would have changed much in that game. Though generally it could help.

I still think our defensemen did a solid job last night. They tried to keep it simple and looked somehow "fresher" than our offense lines (except GGF).

I wonder if anyone else hade the same feeling?

I thought the dmen on the whole played well and didn't get much support from the forwards.

You can't look at the dump and chase strictly as voluntarily giving up puck possession. If you do it right, it's an effective way to make sure the puck stays in your offensive zone. I think we have a handful of puck possession players, but the grander theme is that we need to be crisper and faster to immediately stretch opponents out and become threatening.
I also think dump and chase gets a team moving forward more instead of trying to forcing things in the neutral zone.

Yep, Like the 2005-07 edition of the team. :D

I have my doubts that it's going to happen with the current group of forwards....... Hopefully, our prospects have these attributes.... And the coaching is gearing towards this direction.

We do have enough forwards (particularly the youth) in the mix to be a better possession team. But how often they will all be in the lineup is anyone's guess.

Vanek looked disinterested and mentally checked out. Espo on XM today thinks we gave Vanek the captaincy in an effort to preemptively strike against Vanek pouting. That's a stretch, but Vanek looked a little bit.... Sulky tonight.

I thought Vanek and Hodgson took a bit to get going. Once they did get anything going it was usually killed by Stafford. Drew just doesn't have the offensive IQ that Pommer's does to keep the flow going with those two. Nor does he have the physical game to open up space for those two like Foligno does.

Part of the problem in that game was Rolston had some bad combos together like Stafford on the top line and Leino/Ennis together.
The PP cost us the game. Two plus minutes of 5-on-3 and not even a dangerous chance. Have to win a special teams battle against Detroit, because they're so stout at 5-on-5. You aren't beating Detroit going 0-for-7 on the PP. Pretty simple.


Very true. We score on those PP and the confidence of this very young team grows and impacts their play.
 
Last edited:

heartsabres*

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Originally Posted by jBuds View Post
Vanek looked disinterested and mentally checked out. Espo on XM today thinks we gave Vanek the captaincy in an effort to preemptively strike against Vanek pouting. That's a stretch, but Vanek looked a little bit.... Sulky tonight.
watching Vanek the last 6 or 7 years it is pretty obvious he plays that way.

I don´t know who Espo is but I am sure he didn´t come up with a better alternative then Vanek for captain....He has a C on his shirt because no one else had the qualities that made it the obvious choice.
 

Sabresfansince1980

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Is there any slack to be give to the forwards due to the fact that Rolston had them in the 1-2-2, which (to my knowledge) they did not play during the pre-season, and certainly not against a fast team like Detroit?

IMO, there would be more blame on the coach than on the FWs that were put in a bad scheme against a bad choice of a team to play that scheme.
 

joshjull

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Aug 2, 2005
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Hamburg,NY
Is there any slack to be give to the forwards due to the fact that Rolston had them in the 1-2-2, which (to my knowledge) they did not play during the pre-season, and certainly not against a fast team like Detroit?

IMO, there would be more blame on the coach than on the FWs that were put in a bad scheme against a bad choice of a team to play that scheme.

I suppose you could cut them some slack on the ease with which Detroit broke out of their zone. That was definitely schematic. But the botched breakouts from our zone is something they need to be taken to task over. Along with their uneven efforts to get back and help.


I know I keep beating up Stafford but his effort on the Datsuyk goal was inexcusable. He floated back, gave Risto little to work with to get the puck out and then half assed it when Datsyuk picked off the puck and walked in on goal. Drew should have understood the situation, having a 18 year old rookie dman behind him, and got back into our zone hard to help the kid, STafford was in the zone before Dats was and just stood inside the blueline. He needed to get lower and he would have been in position to prevent Datsyuk from getting the puck. Thats the type of play I would expect from Grigs who is a kid learning to play at this level not a soon to be 28 year old NHL vet with 444 NHL games under his belt.
 

struckbyaparkedcar

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Mar 1, 2008
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I would argue the probelm was more Leino on that line and Leino and Ennis together. IMO they just don't mesh at all.
Not true. Leino has points on a bunch of Ennis' earliest production at center, and can generally cover for him in the same was as Briere. The issue the other night was a combination of Leino's rib, Ott having worse puck skills than Stafford (which sets Leino up as the guy down low continuing the cycle), and Grigorenko being the sheltered guy. If you're playing Ennis at center, you can't have another line take up the zone starts and weak defensive competition and expect that much from Tyler.

I thought the dmen on the whole played well and didn't get much support from the forwards.

I thought Vanek and Hodgson took a bit to get going. Once they did get anything going it was usually killed by Stafford. Drew just doesn't have the offensive IQ that Pommer's does to keep the flow going with those two. Nor does he have the physical game to open up space for those two like Foligno does.

Part of the problem in that game was Rolston had some bad combos together like Stafford on the top line and Leino/Ennis together.
This is pretty much the crux of it. A flip of Stafford and Ott would have paid dividends and I'm disappointed it didn't happen. Ennis and Drew also have proven chemistry regardless of who their third option is, especially if they don't have to play exceedingly difficult matchups.
 

joshjull

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Aug 2, 2005
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Hamburg,NY
Not true. Leino has points on a bunch of Ennis' earliest production at center, and can generally cover for him in the same was as Briere. The issue the other night was a combination of Leino's rib, Ott having worse puck skills than Stafford (which sets Leino up as the guy down low continuing the cycle), and Grigorenko being the sheltered guy. If you're playing Ennis at center, you can't have another line take up the zone starts and weak defensive competition and expect that much from Tyler.


This is pretty much the crux of it. A flip of Stafford and Ott would have paid dividends and I'm disappointed it didn't happen. Ennis and Drew also have proven chemistry regardless of who their third option is, especially if they don't have to play exceedingly difficult matchups.

Thats not true at all.

Ennis was switched to center when he returned to the lineup on 1/31 that season. From then until the trade deadline there were 13 games in which Ennis had 3g 5a 8pts, all at ES. Leino was rarely on his line and only played a part in 2 of those 8pts. Leino was a minor factor in Ennis' production in those 13gms. After the trade deadline Leino took Goose's spot for a few games before we saw the lineup that got everyone excited

Leino/Roy/Pommer
Foligno/Ennis/Tropp
Tropp/Hodgson/Vanek

Thats when Ennis offensive produuction took off and it wasn't with Leino nor as a clearcut #2 center. In the role of a clearcut #2 center (Like last year and this year) he has no history of success with Leino on his wing. They drove my crazy together all preseason.
 

struckbyaparkedcar

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Mar 1, 2008
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Right, it wasn't total points I was thinking of, it was that Leino has assists on both of Ennis' first goals from center. Small sample, but they were also quite productive last season, although Vanek was their most frequent RW (though they played with Drew during Leino's last game).

You don't need to lecture me about the importance of sheltering Ennis, especially considering like every not-bolded sentence in the post you quoted says "give him offensive zone starts and weak competition."

Leino needs to not be the first or second puckhandling option on his line. Once the zone is gained (which Ennis and Stafford are actually decent/good at), he's good at holding the puck down low while the offense sets up, continuing established cycles, and getting the puck either to the point or to the net quickly. Problem is, with Ott on the line, he's the one doing the puck retrieval while Leino is in a zone entry/puckhandling role, which Ville doesn't have the legs or hands for, however much he tries to dangle.

I'm not saying Leino and Ennis have brilliant chemistry, but they've been a decent combination (and all of Leino's production has come) when Ville hasn't been asked to be his line's second best offensive player.
 

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