The Jim Benning and Management Megathread - A step back towards the playoffs

[Proto]

The Top 10 part was completely arbitrary, though. I'm just saying you can continue to extend the list of #1 centres and whether they're veterans or kids, a lot of them are drafted at the top of the draft.

Centre seems like the position that scouts have the best handle on, in that sense.

 

[Ho Borvat]

The Top 10 part was completely arbitrary, though. I'm just saying you can continue to extend the list of #1 centres and whether they're veterans or kids, a lot of them are drafted at the top of the draft.

Centre seems like the position that scouts have the best handle on, in that sense.

I think because, at the end of the day, scoring is the easiest/most effective predictor of a forwards future success in 99% of prospects/players.

I mean, Seguin puts up 2 points/game in his draft year.. pretty safe bet to become an elite point producing NHL'er.

Drafting a player like Ekblad/Murray/Jones in the top-5 you know you're getting a good d-man.... but its a lot harder to tell if that player is going to be one of the games elite players.

 

[Ho Borvat]

The Top 10 part was completely arbitrary, though. I'm just saying you can continue to extend the list of #1 centres and whether they're veterans or kids, a lot of them are drafted at the top of the draft.

Centre seems like the position that scouts have the best handle on, in that sense.

To add onto that, if I were managing a teams draft I would look at trading down as much as possible, and loading up on d-men every draft with the middle portion of my picks.

Early picks would be BPA, and essentially anything in the 3rd round and on, I would try to just acquire the most picks possible and draft d-men and undersized-high scoring forwards.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Sorry, but your opinion on anything Sedin is always to be taken with massive grains of salt.

Sure you wouldn't start a team with a 35 year old, but he's as effective and possibly moreso than a lot of guys on that top 10 list.

------

To continue the Pietrangelo isn't a star debate but Doughty is:

2014-2015 stats for Pietro: 81gp 7g 39a 46p for Doughty: 82gp 7g 39a

The season before - Pietro: 81gp 8g 43a 51p for Doughty: 78gp 10g 27a 37p

Lockout year - Pietro: 47gp 5g 19a 24p for Doughty: 48gp 6g 16a 22p

2011-2012 - Pietro: 81gp 12g 39a 51p for Doughty: 77gp 10g 26a 36p


They're both stars.

Who is he more effective than? Crosby? Stamkos? Toews? LOL.

 

[arsmaster*]

Who is he more effective than? Crosby? Stamkos? Toews? LOL.

He outproduced Toews and didn't have the benefit of being on the best team in the league.

Anyways, not going to go down this road.

 

[Pip]

The way I see it is that the best 3 defenseman right now IMO are Subban, Keith, Karlsson

None of them are top 10 picks.

Sure you might get a doughty once in a while but there are also the jack Johnson and the Erik johnsons of the NHL.

The whole point was that you don't need high draft picks to pick star defenseman.

This is why I suggested if we get the a top pick I prefer to take a center over a defenseman unless the defenseman is godly or whatever.

Although I agree with usually taking a forward early on in the draft since I find them easier to project, I don't think you can make it a hard rule as that's how you skip on a Drew Doughty or a Carey Price. If you think a certain player is special you have to take him, no matter what position they play. I think this is especially true at the very top of the draft.

 

[Scurr]

I've heard Lu Lamoriello and Ken Holland say similar things about trading down to draft Brodeur and drafting guys like Datsuyk and Zetterberg late. Something to the effect of "If we were that smart we would have taken them earlier". IDK that I'd be looking to draft defensemen in the 2nd round because Weber and Keith were taken there… I'd be looking at how I could value those guys correctly and take them earlier.

 

[vadim sharifijanov]

To add onto that, if I were managing a teams draft I would look at trading down as much as possible, and loading up on d-men every draft with the middle portion of my picks.

Early picks would be BPA, and essentially anything in the 3rd round and on, I would try to just acquire the most picks possible and draft d-men and undersized-high scoring forwards.

the problem is you usually have to develop a 2nd round defenseman into a star. same with undersized scoring forwards, for the most part, because you have to make sure they can at least hold their own in their own zone. not to say you don't have to develop a top 5 pick center, but you do a lot less when you have a 19 year old stamkos or toews coming in to training camp than a 19 year old duncan keith or shea weber (who both went back to the WHL, and who both later spent significant time in the AHL).

not to say that loading up on d-men isn't a good strategy, because it is. just that our development system has been... less than stellar.

 

[y2kcanucks]

the problem is you usually have to develop a 2nd round defenseman into a star. same with undersized scoring forwards, for the most part, because you have to make sure they can at least hold their own in their own zone. not to say you don't have to develop a top 5 pick center, but you do a lot less when you have a 19 year old stamkos or toews coming in to training camp than a 19 year old duncan keith or shea weber (who both went back to the WHL, and who both later spent significant time in the AHL).

not to say that loading up on d-men isn't a good strategy, because it is. just that our development system has been... less than stellar.

Despite what some people on here may say, our development system has been awful.

 

[Ho Borvat]

the problem is you usually have to develop a 2nd round defenseman into a star. same with undersized scoring forwards, for the most part, because you have to make sure they can at least hold their own in their own zone. not to say you don't have to develop a top 5 pick center, but you do a lot less when you have a 19 year old stamkos or toews coming in to training camp than a 19 year old duncan keith or shea weber (who both went back to the WHL, and who both later spent significant time in the AHL).

not to say that loading up on d-men isn't a good strategy, because it is. just that our development system has been... less than stellar.

Oh, I agree development is absolutely crucial.

But the more picks you have, the more likely you are to find a player who has the potential to develop into one of those top players.
(which is why Benning giving away picks so easily is a frustrating/concerning trend considering you see a more progressive team like the Maple Leafs trading down at last years draft and making what were considered good draft picks).

 

[PM]

You got a problem with learning by osmosis and the mentorpede?

 

[MS]

Despite what some people on here may say, our development system has been awful.

... for the last 4-5 years, after being maybe the best in the NHL for the decade previous.

 

[Ho Borvat]

You got a problem with learning by osmosis and the mentorpede?

"So Luca, you're telling me... if I am "real good in scrums"... I'll get paid a tonne of money even if im not good at this whole hockey thing"? - Corrado to Sbisa at some point this year

 

[y2kcanucks]

... for the last 4-5 years, after being maybe the best in the NHL for the decade previous.

Wouldn't say it was the best in the NHL for the decade previous. We really didn't develop much coming out of the AHL.

 

[MS]

Wouldn't say it was the best in the NHL for the decade previous. We really didn't develop much coming out of the AHL.

Again, yes we did.

Pretty much every half-decent prospect that hit the NHL for the better part of a decade went on to become a quality NHL player. The problem is that our drafting was so atrocious that the majority of our picks were never worth signing/never even able to be AHL regulars. And no amount of 'development' can fix picks that bad.

Our drafting was terrible. Our development during the Manitoba Moose years was awesome.

 

[Horse McHindu]

Sutter and pietrangello aren't Stars at all.

I think suter is also highly overrated.

Pietrangello is very good. But he isn't at a star level. He's like 1 level below. Like the same tier as Hedman. Like barely cracking top 10 lists or at the bottom of top 10 lists.

Sorry man but you clearly haven't watched Ryan Suter play. I can tell you straight up that this guy is a damn good defenseman, and that you have no idea what you're talking about.

And yes - Pietrangello is a star defenseman.

 

[Verviticus]

Sorry man but you clearly haven't watched Ryan Suter play. I can tell you straight up that this guy is a damn good defenseman, and that you have no idea what you're talking about.

And yes - Pietrangello is a star defenseman.

dang man, im convinced by the "have you watched the game" argument

 

[y2kcanucks]

Again, yes we did.

Pretty much every half-decent prospect that hit the NHL for the better part of a decade went on to become a quality NHL player. The problem is that our drafting was so atrocious that the majority of our picks were never worth signing/never even able to be AHL regulars. And no amount of 'development' can fix picks that bad.

Our drafting was terrible. Our development during the Manitoba Moose years was awesome.

Disagree.

Who did we really develop?

Cory Schneider.
Kesler, Bieksa, and Burrows really only played in the AHL during the lockout year.
Jannik Hansen only became a 3rd/4th liner. Not a top 6 impact player.

Our drafting has been poor, which is a root cause for us having not developed well, but some of the prospects we have tried developing down there like Hodgson and Schroeder (moreso recent years) haven't panned out. Going back 10 years ago we failed to develop the likes of Nathan Smith (who was a terrible draft pick if you ask me), Brandon Reid, Steve Kariya, Fedor Fedorov.

Kirill Koltsov wasn't given an opportunity until he bolted to Russia.

Michael Grabner spent years in our development system and he ended up on waivers in the NHL. Outside of one year he hasn't done much.

How well have we done drafting in the late 1st round, 2nd round, and 3rd round? These are guys that we draft and expect to have to develop. We really don't have much to show from these rounds. Some part poor scouting, some part poor development.

 

[WTG]

Sorry man but you clearly haven't watched Ryan Suter play. I can tell you straight up that this guy is a damn good defenseman, and that you have no idea what you're talking about.

And yes - Pietrangello is a star defenseman.

It's pretty irrelevant who I think is a star defenseman anyway. We can spend all day on it.

Point still stands. I'd feel much more comfortable drafting a center with a top 10 pick then I do drafting a defenseman.


We need a franchise center. Good luck trying to find one outside of a top 10 pick. Whereas it's pretty common a franchise defenseman drops to the later picks/rounds.

 

[The Jesus*]

Disagree.

Who did we really develop?

Cory Schneider.
Kesler, Bieksa, and Burrows really only played in the AHL during the lockout year.
Jannik Hansen only became a 3rd/4th liner. Not a top 6 impact player.

Our drafting has been poor, which is a root cause for us having not developed well, but some of the prospects we have tried developing down there like Hodgson and Schroeder (moreso recent years) haven't panned out. Going back 10 years ago we failed to develop the likes of Nathan Smith (who was a terrible draft pick if you ask me), Brandon Reid, Steve Kariya, Fedor Fedorov.

Kirill Koltsov wasn't given an opportunity until he bolted to Russia.

Michael Grabner spent years in our development system and he ended up on waivers in the NHL. Outside of one year he hasn't done much.

How well have we done drafting in the late 1st round, 2nd round, and 3rd round? These are guys that we draft and expect to have to develop. We really don't have much to show from these rounds. Some part poor scouting, some part poor development.

Our entire Stanley Cup Finals core was drafted and developed for the most part.

Sedins. Burrows. Kesler. Raymond. Hansen. Bieksa. Edler. Then we had guys like Schneider and Tanev.

The problem is we haven't been good at drafting and development in a long time because we were using, let's be honest now, shady cap tricks to load the team up with good vets and trading picks away to win a cup. Finishing at the top of the league and picking scraps for players.

And now we have a buffoon running the team who blew our most important draft pick since the Sedins. At least Gillis got to pick with #9 before he was canned. God knows who Jimbo would have taken there.

 

[Horse McHindu]

It's pretty irrelevant who I think is a star defenseman anyway. We can spend all day on it.

Point still stands. I'd feel much more comfortable drafting a center with a top 10 pick then I do drafting a defenseman.


We need a franchise center. Good luck trying to find one outside of a top 10 pick. Whereas it's pretty common a franchise defenseman drops to the later picks/rounds.

Although it's uncommon, both the Kings and Flyers drafted franchise centers in Kopitar and Giroux respectively. I'm sure there are other good examples.

The way Horvat is developing, I could see him having a legit shot in reaching the level of a Patrice Bergeron or Ryan Kesler........or the 1994 version of Linden. Is that franchise level? Most would say no, but if you get a couple of Bo Horvat-like center prospects on this team, then I think this could work as well.

2011 Boston for instance - top two centers were Bergeron and Krejicki. Neither guy is a franchise center, but both are close to that level.

Ideally, you would have 1-2 franchise centers on the team but if you don't have one, I don't think it's the end of the world provided that you have 4 deep lines and 3 solid defensive pairings. #BostonModel.

 

[y2kcanucks]

Our entire Stanley Cup Finals core was drafted and developed for the most part.

Sedins. Burrows. Kesler. Raymond. Hansen. Bieksa. Edler. Then we had guys like Schneider and Tanev.

The problem is we haven't been good at drafting and development in a long time because we were using, let's be honest now, shady cap tricks to load the team up with good vets and trading picks away to win a cup. Finishing at the top of the league and picking scraps for players.

And now we have a buffoon running the team who blew our most important draft pick since the Sedins. At least Gillis got to pick with #9 before he was canned. God knows who Jimbo would have taken there.

Most of those guys were developed on the NHL team.

Raymond and Hansen were more support players. Schneider was a backup goalie. Tanev barely played in 2011.

Don't underestimate the contributions of Luongo, Hamhuis, Samuelsson, Ehrhoff, and Malhotra.

 

[Ryp37]

Most of those guys were developed on the NHL team.

Raymond and Hansen were more support players. Schneider was a backup goalie. Tanev barely played in 2011.

Don't underestimate the contributions of Luongo, Hamhuis, Samuelsson, Ehrhoff, and Malhotra.

lol

YEAH THEY DEVELOPED PLAYERS BUT NOT THESE ONES

getting players like those out of your farm is fantastic

 

[y2kcanucks]

lol

YEAH THEY DEVELOPED PLAYERS BUT NOT THESE ONES

getting players like those out of your farm is fantastic

My point is our farm team doesn't develop top 6 forwards/top 4 defensemen.

 

[Intoewsables]

At least Gillis got to pick with #9 before he was canned. God knows who Jimbo would have taken there.

Frederik Gauthier