The Great Fight Debate thread

[Sheppy]

I have no problem with the Bruins adding toughness. They could certainly use some. The only thing I will disagree with is who folks would trade for that toughness.

Who do you disagree with?

 

[sarge88]

Haha, totally different eras of hockey.

Do you really think that people and Human nature have changed in that short period of time?

 

[Absurdity]

Who do you disagree with?

Not anyone specific, but folks who would trade Heinen/Bjork for that toughness when both of those players project to be much better than the player the Bruins would hypothetically get in return. If the Bruins trade Heinen/Bjork, I would expect someone with more offense heading to the Bruins.

 

[NeelyDan]

Semenko never played with Orr.

haha well played

 

[ODAAT]

The guarantee of the day is always this, after a B`s game/loss, with a little rough stuff, this thread revived

I`m all down for a guy who likes to drop em`, plays physical HOWEVER, that guy needs to know how to play the game and can keep up to the speed of the game, those players aren`t grown on trees

 

[hector morrison]

Exactly the way I foresee the future. Simple evolution.

You gonna do what they tell ya? No resistance? For some this is what evolution means.

 

[KrejciMVP]

Do you really think that people and Human nature have changed in that short period of time?

Caps just got a huge boost with Wilson returning. That team is an example of what a championship team now looks like. Toughness and skill mixed with 4 solid lines. Just like the recent bruins teams we all saw a few years back. Right now we have no toughness, some skill, and 1 dominant line.

Marchand having to be this teams enforcer serving multiple 10 min misconducts now is the worst strategy in hockey history

 

[NeelyDan]

I would think there's one universal thread running through both sides of this debate, and that's not missing the staged fight. They were never real hockey fights. They weren't meant to intimidate, or address something that happened, or for leverage - they were an abomination.

However, anyone that doesn't understand the tone change that occurs with having a real physical threat (yes, that can play the game) on the ice simply hasn't played any substantial level of the sport, in my opinion.

We seemingly must accept that the game is being neutered, but I wish my team, who were part of a handful of teams that pioneered intimidating hockey, didn't have to lead the charge into it.

 

[Sheppy]

Not anyone specific, but folks who would trade Heinen/Bjork for that toughness when both of those players project to be much better than the player the Bruins would hypothetically get in return. If the Bruins trade Heinen/Bjork, I would expect someone with more offense heading to the Bruins.

I have proposed Heinen for Josh Anderson, thoughts?

 

[Absurdity]

I have proposed Heinen for Josh Anderson, thoughts?

I wouldn't mind it. The Bruins would be giving up a player that has skillset others have on the roster while adding a player with a skillset they need. I don't think Columbus does it though given how well Anderson has been playing.

There's no question the Bruins need to add some toughness, but in my opinion, the lines in general need to be addressed. The first line hasn't been lighting it up 5 on 5 so do the Bruins move Pastrnak down with Krejci and then look to trade for a forward for Marchand and Bergeron or call/move someone up? How long will Bergeron be out for if at all? I think the bottom 6 in general may need to be reshaped which is where the Bruins could use some much added toughness the most. A need is a addressed, but I think there are plenty of questions about the makeup of the other lines which makes trading for a forward tough when it isn't known where that forward will play.

 

[Sheppy]

I don’t think secondary scoring can be handled with a simple phone call to Providence. Player A will come up, play 3 games, go pointless and then be sent down as the revolving door continues to shuffle.

 

[Dr Quincy]

Some of you feel you're clairvoyant enough to prove negatives - curious how you're determining what didn't happen during a game.

The greatest hockey player of all time has said how important it was to have Semenko riding shotgun, but I suppose he's clueless, too.

:45 in, this was in 80-81 with Semenko on the team. Done by a rookie who would play a grand total of 12 NHL games in his career (all that year).

No instigator penalty at the time, Semenko on the roster, wasn't even held "accountable" (there was no fight after this hit or during the game).

This scrub rookie had no fear to hit the greatest player in the game with Semenko riding shotgun.

So, Wayne's opinions are nice, but actual plays that show guys aren't deterred matter more (even the clip at about :15 in where Gretzky is on the ice and gets crosschecked to the head shows this).

This is why appeal to authority is considered a fallacy.

EDIT: Helps if you embed the link

 

[KrejciMVP]

:45 in, this was in 80-81 with Semenko on the team. Done by a rookie who would play a grand total of 12 NHL games in his career (all that year).

No instigator penalty at the time, Semenko on the roster, wasn't even held "accountable" (there was no fight after this hit or during the game).

This scrub rookie had no fear to hit the greatest player in the game with Semenko riding shotgun.

So, Wayne's opinions are nice, but actual plays that show guys aren't deterred matter more (even the clip at about :15 in where Gretzky is on the ice and gets crosschecked to the head shows this).

This is why appeal to authority is considered a fallacy.

EDIT: Helps if you embed the link

If Wayne says he felt better with an enforcer watching his back, I have no reason to question him. Sure its not a perfect science but the benefits outweigh the negatives.

 

[Fenian24]

I have proposed Heinen for Josh Anderson, thoughts?

Great deal but no way Columbus does it. Why trade a player who is a better scorer and physical presence in Anderson for a quiet, unproductive Heinen?

 

[Fenian24]

:45 in, this was in 80-81 with Semenko on the team. Done by a rookie who would play a grand total of 12 NHL games in his career (all that year).

No instigator penalty at the time, Semenko on the roster, wasn't even held "accountable" (there was no fight after this hit or during the game).

This scrub rookie had no fear to hit the greatest player in the game with Semenko riding shotgun.

So, Wayne's opinions are nice, but actual plays that show guys aren't deterred matter more (even the clip at about :15 in where Gretzky is on the ice and gets crosschecked to the head shows this).

This is why appeal to authority is considered a fallacy.

EDIT: Helps if you embed the link

You're right, why listen to one of the greatest players of all time, or the greatest in Orr, who both support fighting. You are a much better source and your lengthy career in the NHL proves it

 

[ODAAT]

:45 in, this was in 80-81 with Semenko on the team. Done by a rookie who would play a grand total of 12 NHL games in his career (all that year).

No instigator penalty at the time, Semenko on the roster, wasn't even held "accountable" (there was no fight after this hit or during the game).

This scrub rookie had no fear to hit the greatest player in the game with Semenko riding shotgun.

So, Wayne's opinions are nice, but actual plays that show guys aren't deterred matter more (even the clip at about :15 in where Gretzky is on the ice and gets crosschecked to the head shows this).

This is why appeal to authority is considered a fallacy.

EDIT: Helps if you embed the link

we watched our Bruin team have guys like Bergy/Savvy and others take illegal/dirty checks more often than I care to imagine all the while having Z/Quaider/Looch/Thornton and others in the lineup, I like tough lineups, like big bodies who can create space for themselves but I can`t be convinced that having a guy who can protect or is more than willing to drop them in the lineup does one thing these days to intimidate or have an opponent thinking twice about doing something dangerous

 

[Sheppy]

we watched our Bruin team have guys like Bergy/Savvy and others take illegal/dirty checks more often than I care to imagine all the while having Z/Quaider/Looch/Thornton and others in the lineup, I like tough lineups, like big bodies who can create space for themselves but I can`t be convinced that having a guy who can protect or is more than willing to drop them in the lineup does one thing these days to intimidate or have an opponent thinking twice about doing something dangerous

It’s not so much preventing it from happening, it’s preventing the FACT that the Bruins get pushed around. Will having a guy like Anderson or a lesser extent Reaves stop a guy from getting hurt? Probably not, but again, it might. We will never really know. What I do know is Reaves will go out next shift and dish out some punishment on someone, won’t cower in fear, and will destroy basically anyone in a fight.

 

[Rubber Biscuit]

You're right, why listen to one of the greatest players of all time, or the greatest in Orr, who both support fighting. You are a much better source and your lengthy career in the NHL proves it

What about the opinion of other great players who don't support it anymore?

 

[Sheppy]

I’m just tired of seeing Marchand act as the enforcer. It’s stupid to have him off the ice for 10 mins, and it’s stupid for a 5’9’’ 180 pounder who can’t fight have to be the one who answers the bell, same goes for Krug.

I get it, I appreciate the effort but it’s just not good. Especially seeing them get handled.

“Sweet, I can take out your star and beat another star up as he comes after me! This is awesome”

 

[Sheppy]

What about the opinion of other great players who don't support it anymore?

Who? (Not saying there aren’t guys...)

 

[Rubber Biscuit]

Who?

For one example, Eric Lindros has suggested basically eliminating body contact. Now, clearly that's a f***ing ridiculous idea. But he's an all time great. Should we listen to his opinion because of his status? No, of course not.

 

[ODAAT]

It’s not so much preventing it from happening, it’s preventing the FACT that the Bruins get pushed around. Will having a guy like Anderson or a lesser extent Reaves stop a guy from getting hurt? Probably not, but again, it might. We will never really know. What I do know is Reaves will go out next shift and dish out some punishment on someone, won’t cower in fear, and will destroy basically anyone in a fight.

I dunno, I`m not sold it does diddly.

Wish I had downloaded an episode from PrimeTimeSports here from a few years back, this guy who studies analytics was on the show as it was clear the NHL had begun it`s shift from goons being in the game and fighting in general had been decreasing consistently.

The main focus of his study was fighting and momentum after a fight for example, does or did either team get any measurable momentum. He and however many were on his team studying it`s affects for over 2 years dispelled a long believed myth that a scrap is a momentum changer anywhere close to as often as some believe it to be (not implying that is what you are doing). I don`t recall every statistic he mentioned by any means but I recall vividly that he stated in over 95% of games where a team who was playing from behind started a fight or initiated it, there was no measurable change in how it affected the game meaning the fight did nothing to change the outcome or momentum of a game.

Now, I also recall him saying that some of those games some teams were behind by a bunch of goals and having any real impact wasn`t going to happen but overall, he and his team stated, after 2 years of research that it`s nothing short of it being a myth that fighting creates momentum

I do recall him saying or someone else on the panel talking about teams who stick up for one another have a distinct closeness or chemistry that other teams who don`t often are missing but again, ultimately, when I think about all the games I`ve watched, all the scraps I have enjoyed, at the end of the day, few, much like a huge hit, does little to change the complexion of a game

None of what I have said is intended to sound like I don`t love scraps and hard, physical games, love em but it rarely changes anything as far as in game results due to momentum gained when it happens for either team

 

[Sheppy]

I dunno, I`m not sold it does diddly.

Wish I had downloaded an episode from PrimeTimeSports here from a few years back, this guy who studies analytics was on the show as it was clear the NHL had begun it`s shift from goons being in the game and fighting in general had been decreasing consistently.

The main focus of his study was fighting and momentum after a fight for example, does or did either team get any measurable momentum. He and however many were on his team studying it`s affects for over 2 years dispelled a long believed myth that a scrap is a momentum changer anywhere close to as often as some believe it to be (not implying that is what you are doing). I don`t recall every statistic he mentioned by any means but I recall vividly that he stated in over 95% of games where a team who was playing from behind started a fight or initiated it, there was no measurable change in how it affected the game meaning the fight did nothing to change the outcome or momentum of a game.

Now, I also recall him saying that some of those games some teams were behind by a bunch of goals and having any real impact wasn`t going to happen but overall, he and his team stated, after 2 years of research that it`s nothing short of it being a myth that fighting creates momentum

I do recall him saying or someone else on the panel talking about teams who stick up for one another have a distinct closeness or chemistry that other teams who don`t often are missing but again, ultimately, when I think about all the games I`ve watched, all the scraps I have enjoyed, at the end of the day, few, much like a huge hit, does little to change the complexion of a game

None of what I have said is intended to sound like I don`t love scraps and hard, physical games, love em but it rarely changes anything as far as in game results due to momentum gained when it happens for either team

I don’t think you can prove either side of the spectrum.

 

[Sheppy]

I don’t know. The team is getting pushed around, top guys are fighting guys they shouldn’t and they’re both 5’8’ or 5’9 - Our toughest guy in the line up is an over the hill David Backes who can’t fight, doesn’t really hit or provide anything.

We’re in great shape.

 

[ODAAT]

I`ve got to think that Cam is in DS`s ear about trying to find a guy who can bring some elements this team is lacking, problem is, who could it be? Has to be a guy who can actually play, not just a guy who hits and is willing to scrap