Player Discussion The Future of Ryan Nugent-Hopkins 2: Has His Recent Concussion Complicated Things More?

[Messrules11]

Just learning what empty net goals do to plus minus?

There were four goals against, he was -3, those are just facts

 

[Snipes45]

Nuge leaves ALOT to be desired. But he’s still a good player and the Oilers would be a better team if they could keep him at his actual value and keep adding. If he wants an overpay... we must walk. But if he’s willing to accept a pay range that sees him as an average top line winger, and a somewhat better than average 2C then you keep him all day long.

You guys really think we are ever filling the hole that Nuge would leave. Did you guys forget that NO ONE good wants to play in Edmonton? Did you guys forgot that the only talent injections we get are from no name euros and waiver fodder? Or should we just draft someone 5OA or better again and then that player can finally fill the hole.

Look at Eberles departure, we still haven’t found anyone to replace his production and Pulju is close but it took a tank year and 4OA pick to obtain that talent.

So just sign a guy for 2 million over his worth just "because"?

That is going to help.

Let's sign a guy who does absolutely nothing behind our top 2 just because we are scared to try to make a trade or acquire somebody else

Reminds me of guys in vegas

F***, I am down 20 grand? Lets just start doubling down on this DEBT so I can get out of it

No problemo

 

[McOilers97]

Man most forwards were terrible last game and RNH gets all the hate.

- UFA looking for a big payday
- 28 years old (10 year vet)
- supposed to be 3rd best forward on the team

The expectations for him are higher than for any forward not named McDavid and Draisaitl, as they should be. He lays a turd way too often for a player of his reputation and place on our depth chart. I don’t see the point in crapping on guys like Khaira, Archibald, Chiasson because they are what they are and aren’t expected to produce big totals for us. Neal’s near the end of his career, despite the large salary and we don’t expect much. McLeod is a rookie. Kahun and Yamamoto are young and make very little on the cap.

And Puljujarvi is putting RNH’s efforts to shame, looking like a far superior player for large chunks of the season, and without the gimme points on the PP.

 

[Snipes45]

Here's the thing with Nuge...he was excellent last season but very underwhelming this season in his contract year, which can help us to sign him to a very cap friendly deal. If we let him walk, do you really expect Holland to go out and sign or trade for a player who can fill that hole at a similar cost? I certainly do not. If we had a GM who was competent enough to sign or trade for a decent forward to replace Nuge then by all means, but Holland doesn't appear to be that guy based on his body of work.

If a guy is not a net positive to your team...A neutral MAYBE.. Why are people so scared to lose him?

and IF this year was an anomaly, mainly at evens, why is it bad to hold that against him? This is a business.

That is his fault.

You better take 5 or GTFO Bud. Go bet on some horses to gain that back

 

[Snipes45]

- UFA looking for a big payday
- 28 years old (10 year vet)
- supposed to be 3rd best forward on the team

The expectations for him are higher than for any forward not named McDavid and Draisaitl, as they should be. He lays a turd way too often for a player of his reputation and place on our depth chart. I don’t see the point in crapping on guys like Khaira, Archibald, Chiasson because they are what they are and aren’t expected to produce big totals for us. Neal’s near the end of his career, despite the large salary and we don’t expect much. McLeod is a rookie. Kahun and Yamamoto are young and make very little on the cap.

And Puljujarvi is putting RNH’s efforts to shame, looking like a fair superior player for large chunks of the season, and without the gimme points on the PP.

Lays a turd?

This dude lays so many turds he could build a fu**in pyramid on his own

 

[Snipes45]

If this was the old days Pocklington would come down to the dressing room and offer Nuge 10K per hit or puck battle win. I bet he would get a lot more done

That's what he used to do. Offer players a vacation for playoff victories lol

There are so many 3rd/4th liners you watch in every other game who look like they do much more than nuge does a game.

I hope he jets off to Seattle

 

[McVespa99]

I have always liked Nuge as a player and a person. But. He just does not seem to have gotten any better or stronger or better at faceoffs etc. I would happily sign him for 4 years at 5 mill. But more than that no.

 

[TheNumber4]

So just sign a guy for 2 million over his worth just "because"?

That is going to help.

Let's sign a guy who does absolutely nothing behind our top 2 just because we are scared to try to make a trade or acquire somebody else

Reminds me of guys in vegas

F***, I am down 20 grand? Lets just start doubling down on this DEBT so I can get out of it

No problemo

I doubt it’ll be 2 million over his worth, and his lack of worth according to Oilers fans is getting blown out proportion cause of his down year. He’s still a good player, there’s not a GM in this league that doesn’t think Nuge is a good player. And if us fans were on the outside looking in, we’d view Nuge much more positively than we do now.

I do believe it should be expected that a UFA will be signed at an over pay. That should be the expectation of any UFA, it’s just how the market works. But if the market deems him worth X amount of dollars during his UFA year during an already down year, I don’t see that becoming an untradeable asset if we are smart enough to identify if it’s working or not soon enough.

He’s a high pedigree 2c / Top Line winger with a consistent history of production and there will always be teams wondering if they could make him a true top C like he was drafted to be... especially franchises that have been starving for center depth for a long while.

 

[McOilers97]

Lays a turd?

This dude lays so many turds he could build a fu**in pyramid on his own

If I was to try to put some %’s down on RNH’s quality of play, I’d say he plays like shit about 25% of the time, is invisible for about 50-60% and plays well the other 15-25%. I’d be embarrassed if I performed like he has this season, and frankly, for large chunks of his career. I’d feel lucky to not have to take a pay cut if I were him, given quality of play and the flat salary cap. Has the nerve to ask for $7m...what a joke.

 

[Snipes45]

I doubt it’ll be 2 million over his worth, and his lack of worth according to Oilers fans is getting blown out proportion cause of his down year. He’s still a good player, there’s not a GM in this league that doesn’t think Nuge is a good player. And if us fans were on the outside looking in, we’d view Nuge much more positively than we do now.

I do believe it should be expected that a UFA will be signed at an over pay. That should be the expectation of any UFA, it’s just how the market works. But if the market deems him worth X amount of dollars during his UFA year during an already down year, I don’t see that becoming an untradeable asset if we are smart enough to identify if it’s working or not soon enough.

He’s a high pedigree 2c / Top Line winger with a consistent history of production and there will always be teams wondering if they could make him a true top C like he was drafted to be... especially franchises that have been starving for center depth for a long while.

What do you consider a "good player"?

What do you think he does on this assembled team that moves that needle forward? This team is flawed yes, but what does he really do well?

lets say McDavid gets injured

How much do you think Nuge can lift with Drai while he is out 1-2 months?

That is how I look at value at the top end.

I just don't get it

This guy looks like any Joe blow 2nd/3rd/even 4th liner when you watch him play

 

[McOilers97]

What do you consider a "good player"?

What do you think he does on this assembled team that moves that needle forward? This team is flawed yes, but what does he really do well?

lets say McDavid gets injured

How much do you think Nuge can lift with Drai while he is out 1-2 months?

That is how I look at value at the top end.

I just don't get it

This guy looks like any Joe blow 2nd/3rd/even 4th liner when you watch him play

Our forward group is so bad below the top few guys that some people actually think that a net-zero, do-nothing player is “good”. He’d be fine at $4-5m AAV as the 5th best forward on a team. His lack of game-breaking abilities and general vanilla-ness would be acceptable in that situation. But he’s a complete pretender if he thinks he should get paid #1C money to suck ass at C and play wing with generational players that make him look way better than he is.

When’s the last time this player made an incredible individual effort to create a goal? Peoples’ rationale that he’s good because “he plays on the PP and kills penalties” is such horseshit. On a team with so little forward talent to challenge him, that’s basically patting him on the back for “existing”. He’s replaceable in both of those roles, and he’s definitely replaceable at even-strength.

 

[TheNumber4]

What do you consider a "good player"?

What do you think he does on this assembled team that moves that needle forward?

lets say McDavid gets injured

How much do you think Nuge can life wit Drai while he is out 1-2 months?

That is how I look at value at the top end.

I just don't get it

This guy looks like any Joe blow 2nd/3rd/even 4th liner when you watch him play

Nuge has made lots of snipes in his time here in Edmonton, would we have liked more and less posts, sure, but not every player can hit the snipes he has hit. You could say the same for his passing and vision as well. You could say the same for his defensive stick work as well. His consistent production since he has entered this league has to say something about his game, he didn’t just luck into points for nearly 10 years.

In terms of his value to this team and how he moves the needle. Well I can tell you one of our biggest strengths is being able to load up McDrai on one line. That doesn’t happen as frequently or as much as Tipps would like if he didn’t know there was a Nuge ready to take a Center shift right after.

 

[Snipes45]

Nuge has made lots of snipes in his time here in Edmonton, would we have liked more and less posts, sure, but not every player can hit the snipes he has hit. You could say the same for his passing and vision as well. You could say the same for his defensive stick work as well. His consistent production since he has entered this league has to say something about his game, he didn’t just luck into points for nearly 10 years.

In terms of his value to this team and how he moves the needle. Well I can tell you one of our biggest strengths is being able to load up McDrai on one line. That doesn’t happen as frequently or as much as Tipps would like if he didn’t know there was a Nuge ready to take a Center shift right after.

I do respect your well thought out points my man.

You basically said nothing there for how he is right now lol

I come off hard on him, but it is what it is. If this guy was making even 5 right now, I would say ahhhh sh**...I guess give him the same, but I would be reluctant.

I cannot even fathom that, in a flat cap, he is instructing his agent to ask for more than what he makes.

That is MINDBOGGLING to me.

I NEVER see this guy even make one great play a night. Drive by a guy like McDrai do or even Yammo. Yammo probably makde 4/5 better plays last night than Nuge has all season

The guy creates ZILCH. You cannot take up cap space for a soft as butter, ZERO Generator player.
You will never win

The rebuttal is always market value and who will replace him?

As a good GM, you shouldn't even look at him as a cup winning guy to EVEN give market value to

Secondly, I personally think he is very replaceable.

 

[McOilers97]

Nuge has made lots of snipes in his time here in Edmonton, would we have liked more and less posts, sure, but not every player can hit the snipes he has hit. You could say the same for his passing and vision as well. You could say the same for his defensive stick work as well. His consistent production since he has entered this league has to say something about his game, he didn’t just luck into points for nearly 10 years.

In terms of his value to this team and how he moves the needle. Well I can tell you one of our biggest strengths is being able to load up McDrai on one line. That doesn’t happen as frequently or as much as Tipps would like if he didn’t know there was a Nuge ready to take a Center shift right after.

The problem is, when Tippett loads up a line with those 2 and sticks RNH at 2C, it’s pretty much a guarantee that the 2nd line isn’t going to score. If they get zone time offensively, they cycle it on the perimeter and generate nothing dangerous. Mostly, they’ll spend the game chasing the play around in the neutral zone though. RNH isn’t a good possession player, never really has been, and this becomes blatantly obvious when he doesn’t have an elite linemate.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

I do respect your well thought out points my man.

You basically said nothing there for how he is right now lol

I come off hard on him, but it is what it is. If this guy was making even 5 right now, I would say ahhhh sh**...I guess give him the same, but I would be reluctant.

I cannot even fathom that, in a flat cap, he is instructing his agent to ask for more than what he makes.

That is MINDBOGGLING to me.

I NEVER see this guy even make one great play a night. Drive by a guy like McDrai do or even Yammo. Yammo probably makde 4/5 better plays last night than Nuge has all season

The guy creates ZILCH. You cannot take up cap space for a soft as butter, ZERO Generator player.
You will never win

The rebuttal is always market value and who will replace him?

As a good GM, you shouldn't even look at him as a cup winning guy to EVEN give market value to

Secondly, I personally think he is very replaceable.

Let's complain about the contract when we see it.

As to your bolded point, we still haven't found a replacement for Eberle. Our pro scouts are the f***ing worst. The best forward they've acquired in the past 5 years was someone we already drafted to begin with.

 

[TheNumber4]

I do respect your well thought out points my man.

You basically said nothing there for how he is right now lol

I come off hard on him, but it is what it is. If this guy was making even 5 right now, I would say ahhhh sh**...I guess give him the same, but I would be reluctant.

I cannot even fathom that, in a flat cap, he is instructing his agent to ask for more than what he makes.

That is MINDBOGGLING to me.

I NEVER see this guy even make one great play a night. Drive by a guy like McDrai do or even Yammo. Yammo probably makde 4/5 better plays last night than Nuge has all season

The guy creates ZILCH. You cannot take up cap space for a soft as butter, ZERO Generator player. You will never win

I get the frustration with Nuge. I really do. I see the dusting off of pucks instead of just ripping it, getting pushed off and not being able to protect the puck, seemingly not getting even an ounce stronger in all his time here, and trying to make too fine of plays instead of being direct and fast with his decision making.

His game frustrates me too and we all wish for more. But even still, he’s still a good player in this League that will have value and demand if he were to test free agency.

And we’re still the Oilers where no one good would even consider us. You think Nuge is bad, wait and see what we try to replace him with.

 

[Snipes45]

Let's complain about the contract when we see it.

As to your bolded point, we still haven't found a replacement for Eberle. Our pro scouts are the f***ing worst. The best forward they've acquired in the past 5 years was someone we already drafted to begin with.

You cannot look at him because of what happened with Eberle.

We can complain about his potential contract, but to me, even giving him 6 in a flat cap is insanely idiotic.

I already know this guy wants a raise or what he is making by his agents comments.

I thinkw e are so used to sh** depth, that we are so scared to lose guys.

Just look at our top forwards this year. LAUGHABLE

104 points
84 points




35 points and a minus 4 by RNH LOL. A guy who got GRAVY PP time all year and minutes with those other two

Astronomically INSANE how useless he is for his $$ and what he wants besides...His pk?

I don't care if he bounces up a tad next year, do not give him 6+

 

[TheNumber4]

The problem is, when Tippett loads up a line with those 2 and sticks RNH at 2C, it’s pretty much a guarantee that the 2nd line isn’t going to score. If they get zone time offensively, they cycle it on the perimeter and generate nothing dangerous. Mostly, they’ll spend the game chasing the play around in the neutral zone though. RNH isn’t a good possession player, never really has been, and this becomes blatantly obvious when he doesn’t have an elite linemate.

I agree, Nuge center a line is mostly perimeter possession and a mostly lack of ability to penetrate and generate something dangerous. But sometimes o zone possession is all we need out of a line, and the alternative to not have Nuge get us at least that could be Haas centered line getting caved. Nuges game has frustrated me more this year than any other year.... but try to think of a Center better than him that the Oilers have had besides McDrai in the last 10 years. And try to imagine what replacement we will get if he leaves. No one good wants to come here, it’s a sad reality that Oilers fans have to take into account when Armchair GMing this team.

 

[Snipes45]

I get the frustration with Nuge. I really do. I see the dusting off of pucks instead of just ripping it, getting pushed off and not being able to protect the puck, seemingly not getting even an ounce stronger in all his time here, and trying to make too fine of plays instead of being direct and fast with his decision making.

His game frustrates me too and we all wish for more. But even still, he’s still a good player in this League that will have value and demand if he were to test free agency.

And we’re still the Oilers where no one good would even consider us. You think Nuge is bad, wait and see what we try to replace him with.

I would say Nuge is an "adequate player"

What do you pay an adequate player?

I would say 4sh to 5 tops

Look at what I just posted

104 points
84

35 by RNH and minus 4 with his ice time

Any GOOD player would have scored a good 50+ with those two in a short season and continue to produce after

 

[McOilers97]

I agree, Nuge center a line is mostly perimeter possession and a mostly lack of ability to penetrate and generate something dangerous. But sometimes o zone possession is all we need out of a line, and the alternative to not have Nuge get us at least that could be Haas centered line getting caved. Nuges game has frustrated me more this year than any other year.... but try to think of a Center better than him that the Oilers have had besides McDrai in the last 10 years. And try to imagine what replacement we will get if he leaves. No one good wants to come here, it’s a sad reality that Oilers fans have to take into account when Armchair GMing this team.

Yeah, I’m definitely not saying dump him out without considering bringing him back, but his $ have to be in line with what he brings to the table. I’ve said that I consider him a #4 or 5 forward on a good team, and he is currently slotted at #3 here - so I see him as miscast and in a bit over his head. He obviously thinks that he belongs in that role if he’s asking for $6.5-7m, but that’s an overpay to the tune of $1-1.5m for what he actually does for this team. $5-5.5m is more in line with his true value here, because we need to be able to afford someone better than him, or I guess wait for JP and Holloway to pass him...Even if that happens though, term has to be kept under control, because we could be looking at Turris 2.0 in 3-4 years. A bad RNH contract that is too long could f*** us out of keeping our younger high upside players even 2-3 years from now if he isn’t good enough to be tradeable.

 

[TheNumber4]

I would say Nuge is an "adequate player"

What do you pay an adequate player?

I would say 4sh to 5 tops

Look at what I just posted

104 points
84

35 by RNH and minus 4 with his ice time

Any GOOD player would have scored a good 50+ with those two in a short season and continue to produce after

35 points in his down year. He was nearly PPG last year. His production the year before that was in the “good” range too. His production before that was fine too, he’s always consistently produced. Should we be judging a player in a down year? Sounds like a recipe to make a bad decision especially when considering what options we’d have to replace him (which will be bad options if you’ve been paying attention to UFAs and what they think about coming to Edmonton).

what would I pay him? His market value cause it’ll mean other GMs view him similarly and thus the contract could be moved and treated as an assset. Market value will be determined not by him, his agent, or even Holland. The market will speak and we’ll have to pay that amount. I hope it’s Market Value minus something of a hometown discount though. And I hope Nuge doesn’t overrate his value, but when UFA opens and he chooses to test he’ll soon find out how the league values him, I just hope that we’re not out of the running when he gets his reality check. If we are gonna build an elite team here you need to keep good players and keep adding. Were not even close right now to the Colorados and Tampa’s of this league. Keeping Nuge and adding gets us closer though. Letting Nuge walk and trying to find a replacement is going to be a huge step back.

 

[KeithIsActuallyBad]

You cannot look at him because of what happened with Eberle.

We can complain about his potential contract, but to me, even giving him 6 in a flat cap is insanely idiotic.

I already know this guy wants a raise or what he is making by his agents comments.

I thinkw e are so used to sh** depth, that we are so scared to lose guys.

Just look at our top forwards this year. LAUGHABLE

104 points
84 points




35 points and a minus 4 by RNH LOL. A guy who got GRAVY PP time all year and minutes with those other two

Astronomically INSANE how useless he is for his $$ and what he wants besides...His pk?

I don't care if he bounces up a tad next year, do not give him 6+

You’re banking on an org that’s paying Turris next year to find an adequate replacement. Oh and kassian for the next three. We won’t find someone good.

 

[Snipes45]

You’re banking on an org that’s paying Turris next year to find an adequate replacement. Oh and kassian for the next three. We won’t find someone good.

And once again, you are saying "Hey, we lost $$, lets double down on much bigger $$ because we don't thinkw e will find anybody" and screw our core more

 

[TheNumber4]

Yeah, I’m definitely not saying dump him out without considering bringing him back, but his $ have to be in line with what he brings to the table. I’ve said that I consider him a #4 or 5 forward on a good team, and he is currently slotted at #3 here - so I see him as miscast and in a bit over his head. He obviously thinks that he belongs in that role if he’s asking for $6.5-7m, but that’s an overpay to the tune of $1-1.5m for what he actually does for this team. $5-5.5m is more in line with his true value here, because we need to be able to afford someone better than him, or I guess wait for JP and Holloway to inevitably pass him...Even if that happens though, term has to be kept under control, because we could be looking at Turris 2.0 in 3-4 years. A bad RNH contract that is too long could f*** us out of keeping our younger high upside players even 2-3 years from now if he isn’t good enough to be tradeable.

All valid points and I don’t disagree. But IMO Nuge is not as bad as this down year makes him out to be. He’s a good and useful player. Can he slide into mediocrity, yeh seems so. But a good to mediocre Nuge versus having to replace a guy that can PP, PK, Left wing, AND center in free agency seems like a pipe dream considering we are the EDMONTON Oilers where no one good wants to come. I think despite all of Nuges warts, you find a way to keep a versatile player like him and you add. Just look up and down the lineup of any elite team, we need a lot more in order to compete, and walking from Nuge seems like a huge step backwards when we are trying to compete as early as next year.

I hope the dollars are in that range too. But if it ends up being market value at X dollars... if the market deemed his value at that, then he should be atleast a tradeable asset. Look at the values that have went around for hopeful but not even established 1Cs that have been thrown around. There will always be a team desperate for C depth.

 

[TheNumber4]

And once again, you are saying "Hey, we lost $$, lets double down on much bigger $$ because we don't thinkw e will find anybody" and screw our core more

Was he lost money though? Do we make playoffs in 16-17, last year, and this year if we are finding a Nuge replacement? Heck we couldn’t even find a 3C still and those are much easier to acquire than a player like Nuge.