The Future is Promising

[Shaman464]

We were talking about Dahlin specifically. An 18/19 year old super prospect. Those aren't available for anything.

Karlsson is available this offseason, and most people here (mostly the tanking crowd) don't even want to sign him even if he was interested.

I was talking about the fact that the team's young players are hitting their prime, and unless they draft a homerun defense prospect that can come into the NHL and play top pairing D, like Dahlin, they will need a more aggressive GM to come in and make moves. Since I started the conversation, I think I know what we were talking about.

 

[Shaman464]

So, since you're clearly not impressed with any of our prospects (save Zadina) or young players (save Larkin) and think the rebuild is going nowhere, what would you do?

I never said I am not impressed by them, I just don't think they form a core good enough to take the next step without major additions. And what would I do? Exactly what I have been saying this whole thread: trade for defense.

 

[obey86]

I never said I am not impressed by them, I just don't think they form a core good enough to take the next step without major additions. And what would I do? Exactly what I have been saying this whole thread: trade for defense.

What young enough/good enough top pairing defenders are available on the market, for roughly equal value as Athanasiou?

 

[Dotter]

Ken Holland's friend in this video gave us 2 interesting easter eggs. He humbly acts like he has inside information but can't say more.

 

[Shaman464]

What young enough/good enough top pairing defenders are available on the market, for roughly equal value as Athanasiou?

I'm not on the GM's email list, if I had that kind of information I would be working for an NHL organization. Its the person who is paid literally millions of dollars a year's job to know how to manage assets and build a competitive roster. All I can say is that its experience has taught the world to this point that it takes a long time to develop defenders who aren't homeruns. Detroit has 2 guys who could be top 4 defenders on a contender, and not much else. They need to fill those gaps, and the clock is ticking, because their forward group is entering their prime now.

 

[Pavels Dog]

the clock is ticking, because their forward group is entering their prime now.

We have probably 5 years until enough of the roster is in or near their prime for us to really contend. It could happen sooner if all goes well but very few teams win with a core of mostly U25 players.

 

[Shaman464]

We have probably 5 years until enough of the roster is in or near their prime for us to really contend. It could happen sooner if all goes well but very few teams win with a core of mostly U25 players.

in 5 years AA, Bert and Mantha will be pushing 30. Larkin will be 28. Those players will be entering the back half of their primes by then.

 

[ThankGord]

I never said I am not impressed by them, I just don't think they form a core good enough to take the next step without major additions. And what would I do? Exactly what I have been saying this whole thread: trade for defense.

Ok... so if we trade one of our current forwards for a top 4 defensemen, do well in the draft this year, and sign a top 4 defenseman in FA next offseason, are we a contender 2/3 years from now?

 

[SirloinUB]

I'm not on the GM's email list, if I had that kind of information I would be working for an NHL organization. Its the person who is paid literally millions of dollars a year's job to know how to manage assets and build a competitive roster. All I can say is that its experience has taught the world to this point that it takes a long time to develop defenders who aren't homeruns. Detroit has 2 guys who could be top 4 defenders on a contender, and not much else. They need to fill those gaps, and the clock is ticking, because their forward group is entering their prime now.

In regards to the bolded, the Toronto Maple Leafs drafted Kadri and Reilly 10 and 7 years ago respectively. People need to stop placing so much importance on a single draft. Obviously Hughes would be amazing but Rome wasn't built in a year and neither is a Stanley Cup contending team. We are on a journey that will have ups and downs.


Also shout out to all 19 of your negative posts in a thread about optimism for the future. Completely on brand. I thought we had beaten the life out of that horse. Can we at least

 

[Shaman464]

In regards to the bolded, the Toronto Maple Leafs drafted Kadri and Reilly 10 and 7 years ago respectively. People need to stop placing so much importance on a single draft lottery. Obviously Hughes would be amazing but Rome wasn't built in a year and neither is a SC contending team. We are on a journey that will have ups and downs.


Also shout out to all 19 of your negative posts in a thread about optimism for the future. Completely on brand. I value and appreciate differing opinions and perspectives but can we not have 1 ****ing thread railroaded with negativity? There are tones of threads about tanking, Holland, etc. that you can beat that dead horse to your hearts content.

All but the first was a response to questions I am being asked by other posters. This is a discussion forum. And, as for the first half, I sure as hell hope we aren't 7 to 10 years away from contending. If we are, then even my most dire posts would be found to be rosy compared to reality.

 

[Shaman464]

Ok... so if we trade one of our current forwards for a top 4 defensemen, do well in the draft this year, and sign a top 4 defenseman in FA next offseason, are we a contender 2/3 years from now?

No, but they would be much closer than they are now. They would still need some pieces, but those pieces would be ones that would be easier to draft and develop.

 

[Pavels Dog]

in 5 years AA, Bert and Mantha will be pushing 30. Larkin will be 28. Those players will be entering the back half of their primes by then.

By far best team in the league Tampa has Stamkos at 29, Hedman/Palat/Johnson 28, Kucherov 25, Point 23, McDonagh 29, Stralman 32... cup winner last year Capitals also had most of their important players between ages 25-30.
I absolutely hope we become a good team sooner than 5 years, get some playoff experience, win some playoff series. But we ain't winning no cups with most of the core under 25 or 26. Especially not a defense made up of such young players. There's really no rush. Time is time, there's no cheating it.

 

[Invictus12]

I think the future is brighter now than it has been, but I think there is a lot that still needs to be done before people start planting their flag into the idea the rebuild is going well. I think that's something that won't be clear until they are much further along. And for some people to say that they will contend in the next couple seasons really don't understand how bad this team is.

I think contending is a bit of a long shot but I do see the possibility of playoffs but it will depend on how far, if at all, our youngsters have grown. This year, Athanasiou and Larkin took steps forward. Perhaps there's more to come. Mantha, for the time being, has been about the same... Cholo and Hronek showed some promise... We do have a few promising players in the pipeline. We do have a pretty high pick this year and if the needle doesn't move then a high pick next year. We also have a bunch of seconds that may make their way to the roster. There is a possibility of signing a high impact player in Karlsson and/or Panarin. I agree, there's lots of work ahead but, there's also plenty being done at this time.

 

[Ezekial]

Teams sign and overpay role players. Its a pretty common thing that happens when teams are on top. JT Miller got a similar contract last season, and now a year later Bolts fan are identifying him as the odd man out.

And they could be, Hronek probably not, but Cholo still hasn't established himself in the NHL, and until he does, he hasn't even earned what Smith has.

JT Miller put up 114 points the past two seasons, he got paid his worth. The odd man out but still good for 5th in p/g on his elite team.
Bolts fans call him out man out, he's odd man out
Caps fans (and GM) call Wilson core piece, they're dumb and don't know
K

 

[Shaman464]

By far best team in the league Tampa has Stamkos at 29, Hedman/Palat/Johnson 28, Kucherov 25, Point 23, McDonagh 29, Stralman 32... cup winner last year Capitals also had most of their important players between ages 25-30.
I absolutely hope we become a good team sooner than 5 years, get some playoff experience, win some playoff series. But we ain't winning no cups with most of the core under 25 or 26. Especially not a defense made up of such young players. There's really no rush. Time is time, there's no cheating it.

Funny part about those players is that they are a mix of elite centers, wingers and defenders. Not really an apt comparison because Detroit doesn't have a single player that is equal to any of those players, and their strength is at middle 6 forwards.

 

[Shaman464]

JT Miller put up 114 points the past two seasons, he got paid his worth. The odd man out but still good for 5th in p/g on his elite team.
Bolts fans call him out man out, he's odd man out
Caps fans (and GM) call Wilson core piece, they're dumb and don't know
K

And Holland called Helm and Abdelkader core pieces. This is a common troupe for contending teams to overpay and overvalue role players, and it comes back to hurt them in the long run. This isn't some aberration in the NHL.

 

[ThankGord]

No, but they would be much closer than they are now. They would still need some pieces, but those pieces would be ones that would be easier to draft and develop.

This is why I'm optimistic and like the direction that the rebuild is going. One or two more good drafts, a UFA or two, maybe a trade or two, and we're good. This can happen in 3 years.

 

[Shaman464]

This is why I'm optimistic. One or two more good drafts, a UFA or two, maybe a trade or two, and we're good.

You can say that about literally any team. Edmonton is a good draft or two, a UFA or two and maybe a draft or two from being good. Same with Buffalo. Same with most teams.

 

[Pavels Dog]

Funny part about those players is that they are a mix of elite centers, wingers and defenders. Not really an apt comparison because Detroit doesn't have a single player that is equal to any of those players, and their strength is at middle 6 forwards.

So we need to draft them, giving us even more time... even less reason to rush into trades. Or, you know, if we had players equal to the best teams in the league we wouldn't be having these discussions..

"funny thing about this rebuilding team, they don't have a roster as good as the cup winners"

 

[ThankGord]

You can say that about literally any team. Edmonton is a good draft or two, a UFA or two and maybe a draft or two from being good. Same with Buffalo. Same with most teams.

Exactly, league parity. Is it 5 teams missed the playoffs last year that made it this year? You can turn a team around quickly.

 

[SirloinUB]

All but the first was a response to questions I am being asked by other posters. This is a discussion forum.

Is it a discussion or spam, at this point?

And, as for the first half, I sure as hell hope we aren't 7 to 10 years away from contending. If we are, then even my most dire posts would be found to be rosy compared to reality.

Fleury was drafted 6 years before the penguins won a cup. 5 for Malkin. 4 for Crosby and Letang.

Keith was drafted 8 years before the Hawks won the cup. 7 for Seabrook.

Bergeron was drafted 8 years before the Bruins won a cup. 7 for Kreiji, 6 for Marchand.

Interestingly, Chicago and the Penguins are cited as examples that we should follow and they were acquiring core contributors up to 8 years before they actually won a cup.

 

[obey86]

All but the first was a response to questions I am being asked by other posters. This is a discussion forum. And, as for the first half, I sure as hell hope we aren't 7 to 10 years away from contending. If we are, then even my most dire posts would be found to be rosy compared to reality.

That's how long it took Chicago and Toronto to be bad/mediocre before they were contenders. We should be following their models right?

 

[Shaman464]

So we need to draft them, giving us even more time... even less reason to rush into trades.

If this is the case, then the immediate future isn't promising, and they need to be patient and play the long game. This is exactly the point I have been getting at this whole time. If the immediate future is bright, then they need to make moves to secure the pieces to start making a push soon. If the future isn't that bright, then you're right, waiting, developing and looking long term is the right decision. But its not going to be both. They can't be making pushes for the playoffs, drafting in the middle to last 3rd of each round, and still be building for the future, that's just 'rebuilding on the fly' and we know how that ended.

 

[Marky9er]

I think some D who might otherwise not be available could be up for grabs as the Seattle expansion draft inches closer. Prices might be picks/high end prospects who are exempt. I could see that situation arising, anyway.

 

[Shaman464]

Is it a discussion or spam, at this point?



Fleury was drafted 6 years before the penguins won a cup. 5 for Malkin. 4 for Crosby and Letang.

Keith was drafted 8 years before the Hawks won the cup. 7 for Seabrook.

Bergeron was drafted 8 years before the Bruins won a cup. 7 for Kreiji, 6 for Marchand.

Interestingly, Chicago and the Penguins are cited as examples that we should follow and they were acquiring core contributors up to 8 years before they actually won a cup.

Discussion. This isn't a circlejerk, people have different opinions.

So for the pens their window was just under 5 years after they bottomed out. Chicago it was 5-6 years (you forgot to mention Kane and Toews, which are just as important).For Boston it was 7 years. Lets call it 5-7 years. Detroit has been rebuilding for 3 years and they don't have players of that caliber. If they drafted them this year, lets say Holland kills it, gets 3 core pieces, a center and 2 top pairing defenders, we are talking now 10 years since the rebuild started and 20 years since the last cup for Detroit to contend again. That's not a world burning rebuild, and that's if they turn the corner today.