THE Fire Torts Thread

[Viqsi]

Yeah, I'm with Major on this one. This group has all the makings of a team that is very talented, held back by poor systems/coaching. The NHL is moving to skill and speed, and as much as Torts says he recognizes this change- his coaching, line shuffling, and systems do not reflect this at all. His recent comments about the NHL being too fuzzy is evidence of this. He YEARNS for the good ole' days. The CBJ are a deep, talented team, but I don't think Torts is the one that's going to get them to the next level.

Is he the best coach we've ever had? Absolutely. But I'm very skeptical of his ability to lead us to the promised land in today's NHL. I would maybe be interested in Dave Tippett, but I also like Sheldon Keefe. The reality is we kept the worse Monsters coach (Larsen) and let go the guy I would like to have right now (Bednar).

We didn't let Bednar go; he got hired out from under us.

 

[Cyclones Rock]

This team is not near as talented as some would like to believe.

Outside of Panarin, Atkinson, Anderson and Dubois, there isn't much to the forward core. Dubinsky is shot. Foligno and Jenner are plugs. Bjorkstrand is looking more and more like a fringe NHLer. Milano is probably not an NHLer. Riley Nash is a 3rd/4th liner. Sedlak and Hannikainen are organizational depth players. Duclair is a who knows? and Wennberg is a washout.

On defense Jones is a standout. Z if properly utilized probably is as well. Nutivaara is probably a decent second pairing guy and the rest are so so.

Goaltending is very poor right now. Korpi is a never was and Bob may be a has been (at least in Columbus).

6 high quality forwards and dmen. And a whole lot of mediocrity after that. A borderline playoff team IF goaltending and special teams improve.

 

[GoJackets1]

We didn't let Bednar go; he got hired out from under us.

Yeah I know, just trying to say we should have hired him while we had the chance (while using astronomical amounts of hindsight).

 

[GoJackets1]

I was thinking of it more like they've tuned him out, or perhaps his systems just aren't good. At evens the Jackets are tops at both goals for and goals against, which isn't what you'd expect from a coach holding back the offensive capability of the team. They look fast to me, but also leave big gaps for the other team to play fast.

Yeah, I don't even necessarily mean offensive capability. If anything, that's the talent shining through. We were terrible offensively until the last 20 games of the year last year, it's not like Torts' system suddenly started working, it's the talent scoring to the ability they have. And I'm not willing to put 100% of the blame defensively on Larsen. I understand "safe is death", but that's different than playing with speed and skill. As an example from the Wings game, Harrington went in deep like Werenski usually does, and stayed below the goal line for a good 15-20 seconds, and what was the result? An odd man rush the other way. Scott Harrington has no business going in deep like that, and that's purely a coaching issue, IMO. I'm just not convinced that Torts can lead us past where he has to this point. He has done absolute wonders for this franchise, but I doubt he'll be the first coach to get us a playoff round win. Just a feeling.

 

[KJ Dangler]

We're playing a bit like a rudderless team. It's been kind of building over time. We'll see this then the team goes on a run and it ends up coming back. I was more comfortable with Torts a couple of years ago. I'm pretty tired of his roster management. I'm not all that impressed with our player development at the NHL level, especially at forward. PLD is doing pretty well, but he was also a high first round pick. Things look a bit better at defense, but that's mostly Werenski. His handling of goalies is pretty bad.

I used to get more worked up over these things, but I'm not feeling the same emotional investment as in the past. Stay, go... Whatever.

As have alot of passionate fans. Thats why attendence is plummeting. Same ole, same ole. We bring in another old school coach , stuck in his ways, ice a team that has a bunch of great defenseman, but a very poor system, a group of subpar forwards, minus Bread, Andy, Cam, Pld, and a boring play style.

 

[KJ Dangler]

Yeah I know, just trying to say we should have hired him while we had the chance (while using astronomical amounts of hindsight).

Bednar goes nowhere, if we werent wasting out time, hiring an old school coach, with a ton of baggage, to coach the youngest roster in the Nhl. That hire should have been a coach thats young, excelled in developing young talent. Carolina, Florida, Airzona, Colorado, Philadelphia have all went that route. Personally, I'm tired of icing the same type of team since day 1. Slow prodding, unskilled hockey. Bring in a coach that coaches todays game, use some of your leverage with the defensive assets we have, and aquire some skill at the forward position, and Attendance would boom at Nationwide. The fact that Anthony Duclair can come in, and play on our top powerplay, right away, tells you all you need to know about our team.

 

[Maylo]

We didn't let Bednar go; he got hired out from under us.

Minnie wanted to hire Dubas. Toronto said no way. He waited for a year for his turn. Tortorella is just JD wet dream.

 

[blahblah]

As have alot of passionate fans. Thats why attendence is plummeting. Same ole, same ole. We bring in another old school coach , stuck in his ways, ice a team that has a bunch of great defenseman, but a very poor system, a group of subpar forwards, minus Bread, Andy, Cam, Pld, and a boring play style.

If the FO would be as bold with other parts of the franchise as they are with some of the trades we've made, we might be further ahead. Sticking with Torts was the safe bet, but I don't think it moves the franchise forward. I'd like to see us a bit more aggressive at the draft. The franchise would probably be in better shape if we knew when to sell high.

 

[Viqsi]

Bednar goes nowhere, if we werent wasting out time, hiring an old school coach, with a ton of baggage, to coach the youngest roster in the Nhl. That hire should have been a coach thats young, excelled in developing young talent.

Yeah, we tried that. Went out and got one of the best out there, in fact. As I recall it didn't work out very well, but maybe I'm just piling on.

(The point isn't that that's the wrong way to go - it's that it's not an automatic success and thus not something that should have been somehow "inherently obvious".)

The fact that Anthony Duclair can come in, and play on our top powerplay, right away, tells you all you need to know about our team.

That raises an interesting point. Why is Duclair on this team, again? Oh, yeah, it was because Torts was specifically recommended to him as a coach to learn to be an effective NHL player under. Go figure, eh?

 

[Viqsi]

I also feel the need to point out that Bednar's first year in Colorado was so atrocious that folks were calling it the worst hiring that year. The turnaround over there has been largely correlated with Nathan MacKinnon suddenly waking up and becoming the epic badass we'd all envisioned he'd be when he was drafted.

Not that I think Bednar is a bad coach; just that I think folks are jumping to awkward and overly sweeping conclusions under the influence of depression.

 

[KJ Dangler]

I also feel the need to point out that Bednar's first year in Colorado was so atrocious that folks were calling it the worst hiring that year. The turnaround over there has been largely correlated with Nathan MacKinnon suddenly waking up and becoming the epic badass we'd all envisioned he'd be when he was drafted.

Not that I think Bednar is a bad coach; just that I think folks are jumping to awkward and overly sweeping conclusions under the influence of depression.

Or maybe that young coach, that excelled in developing our young talent here, has done the same with MacKinnon ? Bednar has brought a whole new style. Landeskog excelled last year as well , and has started out this season with 10g 6a in 12 games. Same with Rantanen, 38 points year prior to 84 next year, and has 21 points already , this season. Contrast that with Panarin having 15 points, and the next closest is cam with 11. Most of our forwards productivity has decreased under Torts.

Thats great that a player like Duclair, who was on the verge of washing out of the league (talent has never been issue), was recommended to go to a coach that would ride his butt and keep him motivated. Clearly he needs that accountibility. That has little to do with the bigger picture. I would bet that Milano, Bjorkstrand would look vastly better under Bednars system, and coaching. We also, most likely dont bury Wild Bill in a checking role, and actually identify his skills, and utilize his speed, skill , and hands, and it doesnt take him going to another team, becoming a number 1 center , because he got an opportunity. He has 9 points this season, and would be the 3rd leading scorer on this current roster. Everyone was so sure he would fall off this season, and he started a little slow this year, but now has 9 points in 12 games. Under Torts he had 25 points in 81 games.

 

[Viqsi]

Or maybe that young coach, that excelled in developing our young talent here, has done the same with MacKinnon ?

Did he? You'd think that if he'd "excelled in developing our young talent" that we wouldn't have certain folks complaining about our... what was that phrase again?

a group of subpar forwards, minus Bread, Andy, Cam, Pld

Ah, yes, that was it. Funny how none of the forwards he actually was a part of developing seem to have gotten anywhere substantial at the NHL level, per that assessment. Makes one wonder about just how much he had to do with MacKinnon to begin with.

Oh, wait, you attempted to address that...

I would bet that Milano, Bjorkstrand would look vastly better under Bednars system, and coaching.

...except that you said earlier that those players are subpar. Not their performances, no hedging about "in this system" - just "they're subpar", full stop, no hope for them.

So which is it? Are the players bad, or is the coach bad? You've cited specific examples both ways, so it's kind of impossible to tell where you stand there.

 

[major major]

Or maybe that young coach, that excelled in developing our young talent here, has done the same with MacKinnon ? Bednar has brought a whole new style. Landeskog excelled last year as well , and has started out this season with 10g 6a in 12 games. Same with Rantanen, 38 points year prior to 84 next year, and has 21 points already , this season. Contrast that with Panarin having 15 points, and the next closest is cam with 11. Most of our forwards productivity has decreased under Torts.

Thats great that a player like Duclair, who was on the verge of washing out of the league (talent has never been issue), was recommended to go to a coach that would ride his butt and keep him motivated. Clearly he needs that accountibility. That has little to do with the bigger picture. I would bet that Milano, Bjorkstrand would look vastly better under Bednars system, and coaching. We also, most likely dont bury Wild Bill in a checking role, and actually identify his skills, and utilize his speed, skill , and hands, and it doesnt take him going to another team, becoming a number 1 center , because he got an opportunity. He has 9 points this season, and would be the 3rd leading scorer on this current roster. Everyone was so sure he would fall off this season, and he started a little slow this year, but now has 9 points in 12 games. Under Torts he had 25 points in 81 games.

This is such spaghetti on the wall nonsense. Last time I checked, Bednar's "whole new style" and system is pretty much the same as Torts', just more conservative. Where he differs is more in his calm and steady demeanor, and a lot less negativity, at least publicly. He doesn't dish about his players everytime someone puts a mic in his face. I'd like that change, but it sounds like you have something else in mind.

"Most of our forwards productivity has decreased under Torts" - objectively false. Implying that Panarin and Atkinson's production is low -objectively false, given that they are on pace for career highs. Implying that we missed out on William Karlsson because of his usage - we missed out on him because he wasn't that good here, scoring like 1 goal in his final 600 minutes here, that is obviously on the player not the coach.

Here's the kicker, Karlsson played 15 games under Bednar in Springfield when he was first acquired from Anaheim. He had zero points in 15 games. Nothing. As a 22 year old. Who's fault is that?

This kind of nonsense posting is just distracting us from understanding what the team needs.

 

[KJ Dangler]

This is such spaghetti on the wall nonsense. Last time I checked, Bednar's "whole new style" and system is pretty much the same as Torts', just more conservative. Where he differs is more in his calm and steady demeanor, and a lot less negativity, at least publicly. He doesn't dish about his players everytime someone puts a mic in his face. I'd like that change, but it sounds like you have something else in mind.

"Most of our forwards productivity has decreased under Torts" - objectively false. Implying that Panarin and Atkinson's production is low -objectively false, given that they are on pace for career highs. Implying that we missed out on William Karlsson because of his usage - we missed out on him because he wasn't that good here, scoring like 1 goal in his final 600 minutes here, that is obviously on the player not the coach.

Here's the kicker, Karlsson played 15 games under Bednar in Springfield when he was first acquired from Anaheim. He had zero points in 15 games. Nothing. As a 22 year old. Who's fault is that?

This kind of nonsense posting is just distracting us from understanding what the team needs.

You realize your taking a 15 game stretch, when he was traded from California to Springfield , all new teammates , system , etc, and tried to use that to support your argument .

As for our forwards productivity falling , you picked Panarin ( who was traded here from a team where he was one of many , to becoming THE focal point of the offense , and Atkinson whom played on his line , and benefited from increased ice time , increased space, and skill playing along side Bread . Aside from Cam, Bread, and Anderson . Most of the forwards production tanked under Torts . A lot of that is the very system you have criticized, when Trying to defend Bob . With a huge focus on offense coming from your Defenseman . This involves defenseman jumping up in the play, and going down deep on a routine basis . It also means that your forwards now have to focus on being that guy back , not playing their natural game because if transition occurs against , they are asked to cover for the defenseman . Safe is death . Now couple that with Torts , and his bizarre decision making. Shaw , one of the premier defensive coaches in the league , is announced prior to camp , that he has essentially become the offensive coordinator . And Larsen , whom everything he touched the prior year turned to poo, has now become essentially the defensive coordinator , handling the strength of our team, our defense . But wait...that powerplay he ran into the ground the year before.... he would be given that task once again this year . You have the consistent terrible bench management by Torts , essentially playing 2 lines most night , which was a huge reason (along with 3.5 goal against Bob, why we choked away the playoff series against Washington . Team was ran into the ground . You have young guys getting very little chance to improve their games , playing 6 to 8 minutes a night under Torts . This is now going on it’s second season of this nonsense . You have regular players like Wennberg, that just ignore his coaching , there no accountability , and guys that vastly out performed him were cut from camp . Some of the players on the team have to be just shaking their head Honestly , if I were a player , I would have to guess the morale playing under Torts would be pretty low .

 

[thebus88]

I'm not sure if this is my favorite thread or my least favorite thread.

 

[major major]

Most of the forwards production tanked under Torts

I stopped reading here. List them. Tell me who these players are.

 

[Mayor Bee]

I stopped reading here. List them. Tell me who these players are.

The three who haven't come close to what they did previously are Foligno, Dubinsky, and the departed Johansen. Foligno had 73 points in 2014-15 under Richards, and his high since then is 51. Dubinsky was averaging .77 PPG (35 in 47 games) in 2014-15, and hasn't hit 50 points since then. Johansen had 33 and 26 goals between 2013-14 and 2014-15, and 63 and 71 points in those two years; he hasn't come close to those since despite similar usage and a couple of terrific wingers.

The only one who's truly blossomed is Atkinson, who's exceeded his previous highs in both goals and points three times under Tortorella.

Jenner is a bit of a toss-up, since he was just breaking into the top six in 2015-16; he had three goals in seven games under Richards and finished with 27 more in the last 75 games, so it may have been a usage/role/young player developing situation there. Calvert played at pretty much the same level as he always had.

The rest of the forwards from then have moved on: Dano, Anisimov, Hartnell, Letestu, Tropp, Skille, Morin, and Boll. So there's really no comparison to be made there.

And the other guys weren't in the NHL full-time when the switch was made, so there's no point in even mentioning them.

 

[Viqsi]

The three who haven't come close to what they did previously are Foligno, Dubinsky, and the departed Johansen. Foligno had 73 points in 2014-15 under Richards, and his high since then is 51. Dubinsky was averaging .77 PPG (35 in 47 games) in 2014-15, and hasn't hit 50 points since then. Johansen had 33 and 26 goals between 2013-14 and 2014-15, and 63 and 71 points in those two years; he hasn't come close to those since despite similar usage and a couple of terrific wingers.

The only one who's truly blossomed is Atkinson, who's exceeded his previous highs in both goals and points three times under Tortorella.

Jenner is a bit of a toss-up, since he was just breaking into the top six in 2015-16; he had three goals in seven games under Richards and finished with 27 more in the last 75 games, so it may have been a usage/role/young player developing situation there. Calvert played at pretty much the same level as he always had.

The rest of the forwards from then have moved on: Dano, Anisimov, Hartnell, Letestu, Tropp, Skille, Morin, and Boll. So there's really no comparison to be made there.

And the other guys weren't in the NHL full-time when the switch was made, so there's no point in even mentioning them.

Y'know, I figured it was going to be mostly about Foligno and Dubinsky. I didn't think they were going to be the only ones on the roster.

 

[major major]

Well they changed systems tonight, and look a lot better.

Alright Torts, ditch this "safe is death" crap you are so proud of and you can keep your job.

 

[KJ Dangler]

Did he? You'd think that if he'd "excelled in developing our young talent" that we wouldn't have certain folks complaining about our... what was that phrase again?

Ah, yes, that was it. Funny how none of the forwards he actually was a part of developing seem to have gotten anywhere substantial at the NHL level, per that assessment. Makes one wonder about just how much he had to do with MacKinnon to begin with.

Oh, wait, you attempted to address that...

...except that you said earlier that those players are subpar. Not their performances, no hedging about "in this system" - just "they're subpar", full stop, no hope for them.

So which is it? Are the players bad, or is the coach bad? You've cited specific examples both ways, so it's kind of impossible to tell where you stand there.

When Duclair can come in, and be one of your more skilled forwards, and start on the number 1 powerplay. I think that pretty well justifies my comment about our forwards. Pretty sure Andy, Milano, Bjork all developed pretty well. Milano had 14 goals in 55 games last year playing 6-8 minutes per night. Bjorkstrand had 40 points in 10-11 minutes per night. Which leads to a huge point why Torts shouldnt be coaching this team. Milano is now being scratched, Bjork is getting the Karlsson treatment, playing minimal minutes. These are young guys with Skill that give this team a much higher ceiling, if they are playing, and continue to develop. Instead guys like Jenner, Wennberg, Nash, Foligno get big minutes, and they are at their ceiling, You develop your young skill guys like Milano, Bjorkstrand, you have a team with a much higher ceiling. Its almost like we have the Hitchcock effect, that he will focus on playing only players that play a heavy, checking style game, which Anderson can bring that to the table, with skill. But a player like Panarin, if he were to have come to the nhl, and tried to start under Torts, I have a hard time buying that he would be the player he is today. He most likely would have gotten the Bjorkstrand treatment that he needs to play harder off the puck, focus on checking, etc. In Colorado, Bednar has top in talent, at the forward position, make no mistake, but they also have taken massive leaps in production, inder his coaching. Hopefully this makes sense for you.

 

[KJ Dangler]

Well they changed systems tonight, and look a lot better.

Alright Torts, ditch this "safe is death" crap you are so proud of and you can keep your job.

Absolutely, as I mentioned in the GDT thread, the difference in the game, was the commitment to defense. 30 blocked shots by CBJ, 4 by San Jose. Thats how you support your goalie, and then Bob game up Big as well. San Jose had alot of shots on goal, but not many were clean looks, which is a huge differnce from the games prior. In the detroit game, the Cbj blocked 8 sog. Thats a huge difference. His line management is still atrocious , Duclair gets 11 minutes , Bjorkstrand 9:52 . If this team is to take the next step, you have to develop your young skill guys. That raises the ceiling on this teams potential. Milano has to play.... he had some of the best metric numbers prior to his mysterious benching . Bjorkstrand has to play. If he were to get Wennberg minutes every night, he might actually get some of his confidence back, and play a game (style) that resembles Panarin.

 

[Double-Shift Lasse]

When Duclair can come in, and be one of your more skilled forwards, and start on the number 1 powerplay. I think that pretty well justifies my comment about our forwards. Pretty sure Andy, Milano, Bjork all developed pretty well.

There's the confusion. Were "Andy, Milano, Bjork all developed pretty well" or are they examples of a poor forward group that Duclair can come in and be an improvement?

 

[KJ Dangler]

I stopped reading here. List them. Tell me who these players are.

Cam, Foligno, Jenner, Wennberg, Dubinsky all took huge steps back last year, while some of the slack was picked up by running the offense thru the defenseman, Jones, Werenski, and Nutivaara all had big years. Guys like Milano, Bjork, produced in minimal minutes. You and I are in total agreement that Torts system, that focuses on the defenseman jumping up in the play, playing as a rover, and puts the responsibility on the forwards to cover, that affects the forwards production, and also leads to alot of odd man rushes against. It also leads to very hot and cold play. 40 game stretches, where we struggle to score 2 goals. 17 game winning streaks, when the moons are in alignment.

 

[KJ Dangler]

There's the confusion. Were "Andy, Milano, Bjork all developed pretty well" or are they examples of a poor forward group that Duclair can come in and be an improvement?

Andy is allowed to develop, because he plays that heavy, physical game. Milano, and Bjork are highly skilled players , that cant play that style of game, and as a result, they dont play much. Keep in mind, this is one of the youngest teams in the league. Milano, and Bjork were developing quite well, until Torts got ahold of them. Heck Milano was 2nd in the league as a rookie in production, per minutes played, yet they are not given an opportunity. 14g in 55 games, at 6-8 minutes per night, is remarkeable. So how has he been handled this year ? Cant get a look.... A good coach would realize that his team has alot of solid/ good forwards, but not many players that can create offense on their own. Milano, Bjorkstrand, have the hands, speed, to take this team to the next level, but he doesnt play them enough.

 

[Viqsi]

When Duclair can come in, and be one of your more skilled forwards, and start on the number 1 powerplay. I think that pretty well justifies my comment about our forwards.

No, it doesn't. Because Duclair was always a high-upside guy; he just wasn't putting it together consistently. (Kind of like some other guys around his age on this team.) So his current output could be any number of things. Some examples:

• it could be another one of his "start out hot" episodes (he's got a history of that) and Torts just riding the hot hand
• it could be representative of him finally putting everything together like he hoped he would when he got here
• it could be an indication that our fowards are doing so poorly that he's an upgrade (what you're suggesting)

I can't help but notice, though, that not only are you going for the most negative possible outcome (one that condemns the maximum number of Blue Jackets), you're doing so despite evidence to the contrary - such as, for example, if Duclair's skill level is such a low bar to clear that it's a condemnation of the team you'd think that he'd be producing much less than he is. Hmm.

Pretty sure Andy, Milano, Bjork all developed pretty well. Milano had 14 goals in 55 games last year playing 6-8 minutes per night. Bjorkstrand had 40 points in 10-11 minutes per night. Which leads to a huge point why Torts shouldnt be coaching this team. Milano is now being scratched, Bjork is getting the Karlsson treatment, playing minimal minutes. These are young guys with Skill that give this team a much higher ceiling, if they are playing, and continue to develop.

1) You called those latter two subpar. You have yet to back off that comment.
2) This statement presumes that the only path to improvement and development is More Ice Time. That is incorrect. We have many historical examples of to the contrary. It's a common and frequently helpful technique, but it's not always the right way. For example...

Instead guys like Jenner, Wennberg, Nash, Foligno get big minutes, and they are at their ceiling, You develop your young skill guys like Milano, Bjorkstrand, you have a team with a much higher ceiling.

Wennberg and Bjorkstrand are one year apart in age. It's also quite clear that More Ice Time is not helping Wennberg's development at this stage. Yet instead of taking that as an example of needing a different development style, it's seemingly being treated by certain folks here as "proof" that Wennberg is somehow broken or inferior or doomed.

Its almost like we have the Hitchcock effect, that he will focus on playing only players that play a heavy, checking style game, which Anderson can bring that to the table, with skill. But a player like Panarin, if he were to have come to the nhl, and tried to start under Torts, I have a hard time buying that he would be the player he is today. He most likely would have gotten the Bjorkstrand treatment that he needs to play harder off the puck, focus on checking, etc.

And this is just prejudicial speculative bull****.

* * *​

I stopped reading here. List them. Tell me who these players are.

Cam

Cam Atkinson scored at nearly the same rate last year as the year before. That his name even comes to mind at all is a massive condemnation of any argument you have to make in this regard.