THE Fire Torts Thread

[Sabo0290]

Andy is allowed to develop, because he plays that heavy, physical game. Milano, and Bjork are highly skilled players , that cant play that style of game, and as a result, they dont play much. Keep in mind, this is one of the youngest teams in the league. Milano, and Bjork were developing quite well, until Torts got ahold of them. Heck Milano was 2nd in the league as a rookie in production, per minutes played, yet they are not given an opportunity. 14g in 55 games, at 6-8 minutes per night, is remarkeable. So how has he been handled this year ? Cant get a look.... A good coach would realize that his team has alot of solid/ good forwards, but not many players that can create offense on their own. Milano, Bjorkstrand, have the hands, speed, to take this team to the next level, but he doesnt play them enough.

To be honest to me it seems like the reason Milano can't get that look is because he can't stay on his skates. Every time he touches the puck a solid fart can knock him to the ice. I get that's what you are saying in regards to he can't play the heavy game, but I don't see Cam getting pushed off the puck anywhere near as much. Milano has even got an inch on bread, who in my opinion, is far stronger on the puck. I think he has great offensive upside, but you gotta be able to hold your own ground.

 

[MoeBartoli]

Andy is allowed to develop, because he plays that heavy, physical game. Milano, and Bjork are highly skilled players , that cant play that style of game, and as a result, they dont play much. Keep in mind, this is one of the youngest teams in the league. Milano, and Bjork were developing quite well, until Torts got ahold of them. Heck Milano was 2nd in the league as a rookie in production, per minutes played, yet they are not given an opportunity. 14g in 55 games, at 6-8 minutes per night, is remarkeable. So how has he been handled this year ? Cant get a look.... A good coach would realize that his team has alot of solid/ good forwards, but not many players that can create offense on their own. Milano, Bjorkstrand, have the hands, speed, to take this team to the next level, but he doesnt play them enough.

I think there's two parts to this and your point is one of them. Torts realizes the game has changed, but also likes the heavier "old style". Thus he's caught with one foot in each style.

The other ties to a conversation I heard on SiriusXM this morning on the surprising starts by Montreal and Ottawa. Julien and Boucher were complimented on how they've adapted their style this season to the modern NHL and younger players, specifically citing their willingness to let them skate and be less punitive toward mistakes. While Torts has that one foot into faster play, it's not his nature to be as forgiving of younger players' mistakes (veterans, yes, because they have some trust in the bank). One could argue Bjork and Milano (and Kukan, for that matter) are no longer rookies, but they're still young and we're young last year when they got similar treatment. It will be similarly interesting to see how he does with Duclair, another player with skill.

This is not a "Fire Torts" shout-out, but it is a recognition of what I think is a shortfall - maybe an Achilles heel.

 

[KJ Dangler]

No, it doesn't. Because Duclair was always a high-upside guy; he just wasn't putting it together consistently. (Kind of like some other guys around his age on this team.) So his current output could be any number of things. Some examples:

• it could be another one of his "start out hot" episodes (he's got a history of that) and Torts just riding the hot hand
• it could be representative of him finally putting everything together like he hoped he would when he got here
• it could be an indication that our fowards are doing so poorly that he's an upgrade (what you're suggesting)

I can't help but notice, though, that not only are you going for the most negative possible outcome (one that condemns the maximum number of Blue Jackets), you're doing so despite evidence to the contrary - such as, for example, if Duclair's skill level is such a low bar to clear that it's a condemnation of the team you'd think that he'd be producing much less than he is. Hmm.


1) You called those latter two subpar. You have yet to back off that comment.
2) This statement presumes that the only path to improvement and development is More Ice Time. That is incorrect. We have many historical examples of to the contrary. It's a common and frequently helpful technique, but it's not always the right way. For example...


Wennberg and Bjorkstrand are one year apart in age. It's also quite clear that More Ice Time is not helping Wennberg's development at this stage. Yet instead of taking that as an example of needing a different development style, it's seemingly being treated by certain folks here as "proof" that Wennberg is somehow broken or inferior or doomed.


And this is just prejudicial speculative bull****.

For some reason this is hard to understand.....

Duclair, from a skill level standpoint is up there with PLD, Cam. My only point on Duclair, and most here dont dispute.... our forward group severly lacks top end talent.

I didnt call Bjorkstrand, or Milano subpar, nor do I really consider them part of the forward group, since Milano cant sniff the ice, and Bjorkstrand gets about 8 minutes per night. Yet their talent and skill level is amongst the best on the team. Why is this hard to understand ?

As for Wennberg, 1.5 years now, ignoring his coach, wont shoot, probably the softest player in the NHL, no accountibility, ... Bjork doesnt check enough, although had a much better season then Wennberg in a fraction of the minutes, gets buried, Milano turns a puck over, benched for who knows how long. Bednar came in , embraces his talent, because he knows thats what takes his team to the next level. Torts comes in , wants guys to check, just another extension of Hitchcock hockey, that is not part of todays game.

 

[Viqsi]

The other ties to a conversation I heard on SiriusXM this morning on the surprising starts by Montreal and Ottawa. Julien and Boucher were complimented on how they've adapted their style this season to the modern NHL and younger players, specifically citing their willingness to let them skate and be less punitive toward mistakes.

I think part of the issue is that it's a lot easier to do that when you've got nothing to do lose otherwise.

 

[KJ Dangler]

I think there's two parts to this and your point is one of them. Torts realizes the game has changed, but also likes the heavier "old style". Thus he's caught with one foot in each style.

The other ties to a conversation I heard on SiriusXM this morning on the surprising starts by Montreal and Ottawa. Julien and Boucher were complimented on how they've adapted their style this season to the modern NHL and younger players, specifically citing their willingness to let them skate and be less punitive toward mistakes. While Torts has that one foot into faster play, it's not his nature to be as forgiving of younger players' mistakes (veterans, yes, because they have some trust in the bank). One could argue Bjork and Milano (and Kukan, for that matter) are no longer rookies, but they're still young and we're young last year when they got similar treatment. It will be similarly interesting to see how he does with Duclair, another player with skill.

This is not a "Fire Torts" shout-out, but it is a recognition of what I think is a shortfall - maybe an Achilles heel.

Absolutely

 

[Viqsi]

Duclair, from a skill level standpoint is up there with PLD, Cam. My only point on Duclair, and most here dont dispute.... our forward group severly lacks top end talent.

This argument is self-contradictory. If Duclair has that talent level, and so do the other kids you're proposing play more, that suggests we have seven top-end forwards. That's actually more than most teams in the League have.

The only thing that makes it "hard to understand" is that you keep making absolutist statements about the quality of our roster and coaching only to immediately undercut them with more absolutist statements shortly thereafter. And those statements tend to be pretty consistently pessimistic.

I didnt call Bjorkstrand, or Milano subpar

Yes you did. You did so just over 24 hours ago. Here is the post in which you did so, with emphasis added:

As have alot of passionate fans. Thats why attendence is plummeting. Same ole, same ole. We bring in another old school coach , stuck in his ways, ice a team that has a bunch of great defenseman, but a very poor system, a group of subpar forwards, minus Bread, Andy, Cam, Pld, and a boring play style.

There is literally no possible way to interpret that beyond "our forwards are subpar except for the top line and Anderson." That is an all-inclusive statement; it doesn't just get Wennberg and Dubinsky and Nash, it also gets Bjorkstrand and Duclair and Milano and Jenner.

And this copout isn't going to work:

nor do I really consider them part of the forward group, since Milano cant sniff the ice, and Bjorkstrand gets about 8 minutes per night.

If you want to play "I meant the core, not everyone on the roster"... well, most teams' forward core consists of four or five guys. How many folks did you list as being not-subpar, again?


And I'm not going to even bother responding to that last paragraph as it's the same tired old confirmation-bias fueled repeatedly debunked nonsense.

 

[major major]

Absolutely, as I mentioned in the GDT thread, the difference in the game, was the commitment to defense. 30 blocked shots by CBJ, 4 by San Jose. Thats how you support your goalie, and then Bob game up Big as well. San Jose had alot of shots on goal, but not many were clean looks, which is a huge differnce from the games prior. In the detroit game, the Cbj blocked 8 sog. Thats a huge difference. His line management is still atrocious , Duclair gets 11 minutes , Bjorkstrand 9:52 . If this team is to take the next step, you have to develop your young skill guys. That raises the ceiling on this teams potential. Milano has to play.... he had some of the best metric numbers prior to his mysterious benching . Bjorkstrand has to play. If he were to get Wennberg minutes every night, he might actually get some of his confidence back, and play a game (style) that resembles Panarin.

Okay, tell me who's minutes you are cutting. We've been through this, there's only so much to go around.

And now you want Wennberg to get more minutes? Do you actually stand for anything besides random negativity?

 

[major major]

Cam, Foligno, Jenner, Wennberg, Dubinsky all took huge steps back last year, while some of the slack was picked up by running the offense thru the defenseman, Jones, Werenski, and Nutivaara all had big years. Guys like Milano, Bjork, produced in minimal minutes. You and I are in total agreement that Torts system, that focuses on the defenseman jumping up in the play, playing as a rover, and puts the responsibility on the forwards to cover, that affects the forwards production, and also leads to alot of odd man rushes against. It also leads to very hot and cold play. 40 game stretches, where we struggle to score 2 goals. 17 game winning streaks, when the moons are in alignment.

The general point of your comments, as well as I can discern it, seems to run counter to the facts. The Jackets are currently #1 in the NHL in even strength goal scoring, and 30 of the 35 ES goals are scored by forwards, 30 again being the most of any team.

Cam has had his best success in his late 20s with Torts. He's on pace for another career year. Foligno and Dubinsky are in their 30s. Jenner was always overrated as a scorer, we all said this after his 30 goal season. Maybe Wennberg would develop better under a different coach, I don't know. But that's as close as you're getting. Everyone else is either scoring more or playing under their only NHL coach. The team as a whole, and the forwards as a whole, score at an above average rate. I'm only aware of one 40 game cold stretch, no "stretches". Other than that one we've been a very high scoring team for two and a half years. My complaint with safe-is-death is more to do with the very high number of odd-man rushes against. I don't think it hurts our forwards' production.

 

[Mayor Bee]

I think there's two parts to this and your point is one of them. Torts realizes the game has changed, but also likes the heavier "old style". Thus he's caught with one foot in each style.

The other ties to a conversation I heard on SiriusXM this morning on the surprising starts by Montreal and Ottawa. Julien and Boucher were complimented on how they've adapted their style this season to the modern NHL and younger players, specifically citing their willingness to let them skate and be less punitive toward mistakes. While Torts has that one foot into faster play, it's not his nature to be as forgiving of younger players' mistakes (veterans, yes, because they have some trust in the bank). One could argue Bjork and Milano (and Kukan, for that matter) are no longer rookies, but they're still young and we're young last year when they got similar treatment. It will be similarly interesting to see how he does with Duclair, another player with skill.

This is not a "Fire Torts" shout-out, but it is a recognition of what I think is a shortfall - maybe an Achilles heel.

We also haven't really seen what the effects of complete trust in young players looks like, either here or around the league. Some players don't make the same mistake twice because it burns them up to make a mistake, particularly one that leads to a goal against. Some players need to have the mistake pointed out to them. Some need to have it pointed out to them and then hounded for continuously doing the same thing.

Who knows how much different Jason Chimera's career would have turned out if someone had grabbed him as a young player and told him that he was going to be benched and then scratched if he killed another odd-man rush by going offside? Instead we saw someone who was 10, 12, and 15 years into the league doing exactly the same stupid crap he was doing as a rookie.

 

[KJ Dangler]

Okay, tell me who's minutes you are cutting. We've been through this, there's only so much to go around.

And now you want Wennberg to get more minutes? Do you actually stand for anything besides random negativity?

Do I want Wennberg to get more minutes ? Absolutely not , dude is a waste of a position most nights . My comment was that if Bjork were to get the leash and minutes Wennberg has gotten , you would probably see a player , that plays a game similar to Panarin . My further point was Torts doesn’t have the same standards for his players . Wennberg hasn’t listened to his coaching for a year and a half , refuses to shoot , floats , stays away from contact , and his minutes have remained constant . Bjork or Milano can have a bad shift , and not see the ice for games . He seems to prefer playing guys like Sedlak , Hanikinen , that can check , and that’s about it . He talks about the need to play Korpi , because Bob May be gone soon, what about if Panarin leaves ? We going to plug in more checkers for him ?

I’ll concede you that right now we are scoring pretty well , let’s see if that production holds , as defenses tighten up .

 

[MoeBartoli]

We also haven't really seen what the effects of complete trust in young players looks like, either here or around the league. Some players don't make the same mistake twice because it burns them up to make a mistake, particularly one that leads to a goal against. Some players need to have the mistake pointed out to them. Some need to have it pointed out to them and then hounded for continuously doing the same thing.

Who knows how much different Jason Chimera's career would have turned out if someone had grabbed him as a young player and told him that he was going to be benched and then scratched if he killed another odd-man rush by going offside? Instead we saw someone who was 10, 12, and 15 years into the league doing exactly the same stupid crap he was doing as a rookie.

Oh my, Chimmer. He was the opponents best weapon at stopping the odd man rush.....As an aside, I've somewhat looked at Andy and thought he's like a Chimera with a better brain and hands.

 

[NotWendell]

Oh my, Chimmer. He was the opponents best weapon at stopping the odd man rush.....As an aside, I've somewhat looked at Andy and thought he's like a Chimera with a better brain and hands.

Ah Chimera! Skates of fire, hands of stone.

 

[cbjgirl]

Ah Chimera! Skates of fire, hands of stone.

It never helped Chimmer's case that Zherdev would peel off and go sideways just before the blue line 9 times out of 10 when he was bringing the puck up the ice. I always blamed Zherdev as much as Chimmer.

 

[MoeBartoli]

Ah Chimera! Skates of fire, hands of stone.

Great post!!! So few words says it all!

 

[MoeBartoli]

I think there's two parts to this and your point is one of them. Torts realizes the game has changed, but also likes the heavier "old style". Thus he's caught with one foot in each style.
.

I had posted this last night and found it interesting today to read Portzline's article in today's The Athletic which included this excerpt:

"It’s been widely discussed in the past few seasons how the Blue Jackets have transitioned from a plumber-heavy roster to one with more skill and speed, as required by today’s NHL. But it’s fair to wonder whether the Blue Jackets aren’t caught in between, a sort of evolutionary no-man’s land.

Tortorella can preach a north-south gospel all he wants, but what if this roster just has too many east-west style forwards? Bjorkstrand, Duclair, Sonny Milano and Wennberg would fit that bill.

“They have some guys singing one tune,” an Eastern Conference scout told The Athletic. “And other guys humming another.”"

 

[major major]

I don't think Bjorkstrand and Wennberg are fitting very well right now. But I hate the idea that north-south can't coexist with east-west. They can and they do, on just about every team. Tom Wilson is on Washington's top line, for example.

Duclair and Panarin might be the two best forwards right now. Wennberg and Bjorkstrand's issues are partly on them. And Sonny has so many warts in his game, beyond being too east -west.

That's not to say that there isn't a stylistic and strategic clash, but that the resolution to it isn't about icing a team of only one type.

 

[CBJWerenski8]

Can we re-name this thread to the Fire Brad Larsen thread?

6 Powerplay goals

3 SH goals against

We are almost nearly as likely to be scored on with a man advantage than we are scoring with a man advantage.

No powerplay saps energy quite like ours.

Could be wrong, as Fox Sports' stats only go back to last year, but have we had a bottom ranked powerplay every year he's been here aside from 16-17 where we had the unreal start carry the PP all year?

 

[major major]

Can we re-name this thread to the Fire Brad Larsen thread?

Maybe Larsen deserves to be fired. I think it's worth discussing whether to fire Torts. The longstanding PP incompetence is ultimately his fault, and a lot of the PP decisions have been his.

What we need is a new PP coach, which actually doesn't require firing anyone. Doug Weight or Adam Oates could probably specialize in it. We've got 3 coaches, could add a 4th. They would need Torts to lay off though.

 

[Theo Von]

I posted this in the GDT thread tonight but,

It’s sickening how perfectly fine this team is with being mediocre. Yes, the team but moreso the coaches. I see absolutely no urgency in changing up the gameplan, changing up the power play... etc. etc.

Torts seems to not mind having atrocious power play’s over the years.

Powerplay rankings of a team coached by Torts:

2017-2018: 30th (current)
2016-2017: 25th
2015-2016: 12th
2013-2014: 26th
2012-2013: 23rd
2011-2012: 23rd
2010-2011: 18th.

Since 2010, a Torts coached team has averaged a 22nd ranking in the league on the PP. Sickening. Absolutely sickening.

Btw, I think this answers your question @CBJWennberg10 about a Larson-led PP rankings ^^

 

[Maylo]

Powerplay rankings of a team coached by Torts:

2017-2018: 30th (current)
2016-2017: 25th
2015-2016: 12th
2013-2014: 26th
2012-2013: 23rd
2011-2012: 23rd
2010-2011: 18th.

Since 2010, a Torts coached team has averaged a 22nd ranking in the league on the PP. Sickening. Absolutely sickening.

We are #28 now, but yeah. He took Rags with #13 place PP and left them with #23 place. Took us with #12 place PP and... well.

 

[Theo Von]

We are #28 now, but yeah. He took Rags with #13 place PP and left them with #23 place. Took us with #12 place PP and... well.

28th going into tonight. NHL.com hasn’t updated yet.

 

[thebus88]

Lots of top notch insight in here.

 

[major major]

That's a full throated defence of Lars by Foligno. I think it's been long enough though. Get a new coach/PP coach.

 

[thebus88]

Sonny Milano into a 'Reg Dunlop' role??

This what you people really want?? Be honest.

 

[thebus88]

Do you guys believe the coaches of the bottom 3-5 teams in PP% and PK% and overall should be fired each year?

Its laughable the things you want to blame the coaches for.

And its laughable what you guys want to claim about this team after a dozen games.

Its not laughable that you guys are doing the same exact thing 3 years in a row.

Oh right, its also Torts and JD's fault that the team didn't win in 2005.