The decision to keep the expiring contracts - is it going to backfire

[Tak7]

I was responding to hindsight is 20/20. Which to me is a cop-out. You gamble - sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. If the Leafs go out in the first round, the regular season point totals mean very little, and they'll be letting a 30 goal scorer and a few others walk for nothing. If the gamble pays off and they go deep in the playoffs, well then I guess you could say it was worth it.

Surely the gamble is keeping your pending UFAs for a run? Not throwing them overboard?

 

[LeafFever]

Why do the Leafs have to be the one team that is guaranteed a playoff spot yet sells-off their UFAs for picks and damages their chances?
I don't feel people are being realistic saying this.

 

[Iapyi]

Yes because that's all you could get for JVR - draft picks. Who cares if Gardiner walks next year......

Of course JVR, like any single player in the history of the game, could get something besides draft picks.

What exactly could we have gotten for him? What speculatively could we have gotten for him?

There is a limit to what is attainable and let's not neglect to remember that every team works in their own best interests and don't give 2 poops about the Maple Leafs.

Like I've said a few times now this is not a video game.

Some fans think it is so easy to just go out and get precisely what the team needs. That is a dream world.

Could have. Should have. Blah blah blah.

 

[Joey Hoser]

You can say "they should have sold the vets" every year, about every team, and as long as they don't win the cup, you'll be right.

 

[taurine330]

You can say "they should have sold the vets" every year, about every team, and as long as they don't win the cup, you'll be right.

Thus, one will be right almost every time.

 

[Tak7]

Of course JVR, like any single player in the history of the game, could get something besides draft picks.

What exactly could we have gotten for him? What speculatively could we have gotten for him?

There is a limit to what is attainable and let's not neglect to remember that every team works in their own best interests and don't give 2 poops about the Maple Leafs.

Like I've said a few times now this is not a video game.

Some fans think it is so easy to just go out and get precisely what the team needs. That is a dream world.

Could have. Should have. Blah blah blah.

Yep. Well said.

Not to mention - other than the McDonagh deal, there wasn't a deadline day deal involving a top 4 Dman in the league that really made you go "oh, the Leafs should have been all over that".

Any premium that existed for wingers, was negated by the fact that Dmen just weren't really on the market.

 

[Joey Hoser]

unless we win a cup, wouldn't it have been better for the franchise to get something that would help when the team is actually peaking?

By this logic, every team should sell all their vets every year.

If the rest of the league followed this thought process, that you have to be convinced you WILL win the cup in order to stand pat, then there would be nobody to sell your vets to.

It doesn't make sense.

 

[Trapper]

By this logic, every team should sell all their vets every year.

If the rest of the league followed this thought process, that you have to be convinced you WILL win the cup in order to stand pat, then there would be nobody to sell your vets to.

It doesn't make sense.

We arent talking about moving every UFA like days of old, let's move Polak, Winnik, Parenteau, Grabner, Bozak, Komarov etc. We aren't moving Hainsey or Marleau.
We're talking about 2 bonifide return assets to this team in JVR and Gardiner.
How many teams have moved guys in the summer that aren't in the long range plan or salary structure?
Was Boston stupid for moving Lucic? Philly moved Schenn. Should Chicago have let Buff, Ladd, Versteeg, etc. walk for nothing? The rest of the league does these things.
They moved them all in the summer.
This team is still missing another level of dynamic around it for contender IMO.
Next year we might not have your 30 goal scorer. A 3C, a 4C, center depth in the organization and the same missing issue on defense.
I don't think it's smart to let a 30 goal scorer and top 4 D (possibly) walk for nothing.

 

[Joey Hoser]

I don't think it's smart to let a 30 goal scorer and top 4 D (possibly) walk for nothing.

So how do you expect other teams to pay us assets, so that they can let them walk for nothing? If keeping them for a playoff run isn't smart, how dumb do you have to be to give up assets?

There's a flaw here somewhere...

 

[Pocket Hercules]

Didn't even read through this thread, but a simple question to those in the "should of traded them" camp...Name 1 competitive team in the league's 100 + year history that was playoff bound and decided to inexplicably trade away their expiring contracts in exchange for draft picks?...

Like, reallllly think this through, people...

 

[Ignatius Reilly]

So how do you expect other teams to pay us assets, so that they can let them walk for nothing?

There's a flaw here somewhere...

That's a great question!

When I look around the league, it seems really, REALLY rare for a team in a position like we were to be selling assets at the TDL. So.... when all the GMs and Presidents and whatnot in the best league in the world don't do something, maybe.... just maybe.... it's a bad idea?

 

[Trapper]

So how do you expect other teams to pay us assets, so that they can let them walk for nothing? If keeping them for a playoff run isn't smart, how dumb do you have to be to give up assets?

There's a flaw here somewhere...

Players don't get traded in the summer?
So nobody will trade for Pacioretty is Montreal makes him available this summer? Lucic wasn't traded? Just my imagination? If Tampa wants to trade McD this summer 30 teams will say no thanks?
Yes there is a flaw here somewhere.

 

[Tonka]

Holy crap, Marner-Matthews-Nylander...do that if you are gonna change things up...WTH

 

[pucksakes666]

It's a gamble that teams just deal with. Say they did deal off JVR,bozak and komarov and the prospects didn't pan out then what?

 

[LeafsBoyo]

Honestly have no faith in management or Babcock. I don't trust them to make difficult decisions with the long view in mind. Trading JVR/Bozak would have been a difficult decision that some fans might not have liked, but it was the right move long-term.

 

[Randy Randerson]

By this logic, every team should sell all their vets every year.

If the rest of the league followed this thought process, that you have to be convinced you WILL win the cup in order to stand pat, then there would be nobody to sell your vets to.

It doesn't make sense.

nope, by this logic you'd wait for the right place in the compete cycle to start throwing non-roster assets at winning. Not trading UFA's in a year where the window isn't yet open is the same thing as acquiring rentals, you got the choice between the UFA and the picks/prospects and you chose one, it doesn't matter which you start with

if your non-roster asset base is infinite, then by all means you can afford to choose the supplemented roster over the picks/prospects every year. If your non-roster asset base is finite, then you have to be selective

And yes, every team that doesn't have a realistic shot of winning should be parlaying expiring assets into something that maintains their value rather than letting them expire. Not all teams, just those that are not in the "win now" portion of their compete cycle. if that doesn't make sense to you, that's on you.

 

[htpwn]

It's a gamble that teams just deal with. Say they did deal off JVR,bozak and komarov and the prospects didn't pan out then what?

A lot of the discussion at the deadline was not around acquiring prospects, but rather acquiring assets of any sort that could then be flipped in the off-season for the defenseman we desperately need.

So, for example, let's say we traded van Reimsdyk for a 1st + prospect. We could then put together a package of a couple 1sts, prospects, etc. for a Dougie Hamilton or Oscar Klefbom or whoever else may be available (Erik Karlsson). Now if we hope to pull a trade like that off, it's going to cut a lot deeper into our organizational depth.

 

[francis246]

Bring back Bozak if he will take a cut. Otherwise let the other guys go

 

[MR4]

So how do you expect other teams to pay us assets, so that they can let them walk for nothing? If keeping them for a playoff run isn't smart, how dumb do you have to be to give up assets?

There's a flaw here somewhere...

The flaw is in your argument thinking every playoff run is equal. Sometimes you should add assets even if they leave (when you are a top 3 contender or top 5 with a doable path to the Cup), sometimes it's not worth the risk and should sell.

Personally I think we should've sold both JVR & Bozak in the summer, but even at the trade deadline, it was pretty clear we had 2 guaranteed underdog rounds to start off the playoffs, then a EC finalist and then SC finalist. Contrary to the 'gotta beat the best to be the best' saying, your path to the Cup is actually huge in determining if you make it there. And if you're looking at it from a summer POV, we only just finished 8th place barely squeaking into the playoffs, 0 reason to believe it's a smart idea to waste 2 1sts worth of UFAs on the next year.

IMO this was a horrible year by Lou. We could've had this roster by trading our 3rd line UFAs return of 2 1sts for someone like Tanev signed a GOOD 4th line C instead of a meh one like Moore, and come out better than today's roster and WAY better off for next season.

Hyman-Matthews-Marner
Marleau-Kadri-Kapanen
Johnsson-Nylander-Brown
Komarov-Good 4th line C-Martin/?

Rielly-Tanev
Gardiner-Hainsey
Dermott-Zaitsev

All while not losing a single pick

A lot of the discussion at the deadline was not around acquiring prospects, but rather acquiring assets of any sort that could then be flipped in the off-season for the defenseman we desperately need.

So, for example, let's say we traded van Reimsdyk for a 1st + prospect. We could then put together a package of a couple 1sts, prospects, etc. for a Dougie Hamilton or Oscar Klefbom or whoever else may be available (Erik Karlsson). Now if we hope to pull a trade like that off, it's going to cut a lot deeper into our organizational depth.

THIS! No idea why the anti-trade crew says we're stuck in rebuilding when most that wanted to trade the 2, just wanted them to be converted into easily traceable assets that we could fit for pieces we need instead of the excess we kept

 

[bonjovi0308]

Even a 7th rounder for JVR looks better than what is going on now, assuming he won't return next season...

 

[MR4]

It's a gamble that teams just deal with. Say they did deal off JVR,bozak and komarov and the prospects didn't pan out then what?

The people advocating for a trade didn't care much about the prospects.. they wanted to flip the return for something we need.. can't do that trading JVR/Bozak for what we need so you needed to do a 2 part plan of sell then buy.. why is this so hard to understand..

 

[Legion34]

The flaw is in your argument thinking every playoff run is equal. Sometimes you should add assets even if they leave (when you are a top 3 contender or top 5 with a doable path to the Cup), sometimes it's not worth the risk and should sell.

Personally I think we should've sold both JVR & Bozak in the summer, but even at the trade deadline, it was pretty clear we had 2 guaranteed underdog rounds to start off the playoffs, then a EC finalist and then SC finalist. Contrary to the 'gotta beat the best to be the best' saying, your path to the Cup is actually huge in determining if you make it there. And if you're looking at it from a summer POV, we only just finished 8th place barely squeaking into the playoffs, 0 reason to believe it's a smart idea to waste 2 1sts worth of UFAs on the next year.

IMO this was a horrible year by Lou. We could've had this roster by trading our 3rd line UFAs return of 2 1sts for someone like Tanev signed a GOOD 4th line C instead of a meh one like Moore, and come out better than today's roster and WAY better off for next season.

Hyman-Matthews-Marner
Marleau-Kadri-Kapanen
Johnsson-Nylander-Brown
Komarov-Good 4th line C-Martin/?

Rielly-Tanev
Gardiner-Hainsey
Dermott-Zaitsev

All while not losing a single pick


THIS! No idea why the anti-trade crew says we're stuck in rebuilding when most that wanted to trade the 2, just wanted them to be converted into easily traceable assets that we could fit for pieces we need instead of the excess we kept

You have no idea what was tried. Friedman himself said that the leafs were trying to get a second first to make a bigger deal and it fell through. Maybe van said no to tanev? Maybe there was a deal in place...... you are living in a fantasy world where you are mad that things didn’t go the way you wanted when it takes 2 to trade.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Didn't even read through this thread, but a simple question to those in the "should of traded them" camp...Name 1 competitive team in the league's 100 + year history that was playoff bound and decided to inexplicably trade away their expiring contracts in exchange for draft picks?...

Like, reallllly think this through, people...

St.Louis.

Just curious, if there was a bunch of other teams that had done this over say the last 5 years, would you be OK with it? Just curious if there's any room at all in your mind for independent thought or if you think that blindly following the majority is the way to go.

 

[Leaf4Life]

You can say "they should have sold the vets" every year, about every team, and as long as they don't win the cup, you'll be right.

Not sure I agree with that.

If they get swept or almost swept in the first round then yes, you'll be right.

If they can get past the first round or at the very least put up a close fight then maybe no.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

I hope not - but the chances are pretty slim

I was one of few that were pretty vocal to trade - will see

Any thoughts?

Fans won’t want to hear it, but this is the sad truth. I was begging for a trade and it Should have happened. That 1st+ for JVR (and the two 2nds they already had) would’ve been a huge chip at the 2018 draft. Leafs could’ve traded up for Tkachuk at the 2018 draft, and STILL made the 2018 playoffs over a mediocre Florida team.

The trade should have happened last summer, for all those “we weren’t gonna trade them mid season” folks.

But even at the TDL, it should’ve been obvious that the Leafs should trade JVR when Pittsburgh brought in Brassard (Leafs were never gonna beat the Pens) and Bruins brought in Rick Nash (Leafs were never gonna beat this Bruins team) well before the deadline. The fact that Tampa was reportedly all-in on both Karlsson and McDonagh (they got McDonagh) was just icing on the trade JVR cake, as that was another conference/division rival the young Leafs weren’t gonna beat this year that was clearly going all-in. I wrote all this on here at the time of the TDL, as did others.

The bottom line is that Lou and Shannahan messed up, Babs probably sold them on a magical run this year but it’s their job to see the big picture long term. Getting a couple extra 1st and 2nd round picks this year wouldve been huge for the Leafs and could’ve paid dividends as soon as next year.

There was a large ‘trade JVR’ crowd on this forum last summer and a smaller one at the TDL, and it’sclearly looking like we were right.