The decision to keep the expiring contracts - is it going to backfire

[TheGoldenJet]

Fans won’t want to hear it, but this is the sad truth. I was begging for a trade and it Should have happened. That 1st+ for JVR (and the two 2nds they already had) would’ve been a huge chip at the 2018 draft. Leafs could’ve traded up for Tkachuk at the 2018 draft, and STILL made the 2018 playoffs over a mediocre Florida team.

The trade should have happened last summer, for all those “we weren’t gonna trade them mid season” folks.

But even at the TDL, it should’ve been obvious that the Leafs should trade JVR when Pittsburgh brought in Brassard (Leafs were never gonna beat the Pens) and Bruins brought in Rick Nash (Leafs were never gonna beat this Bruins team) well before the deadline. The fact that Tampa was reportedly all-in on both Karlsson and McDonagh (they got McDonagh) was just icing on the trade JVR cake, as that was another conference/division rival the young Leafs weren’t gonna beat this year that was clearly going all-in. I wrote all this on here at the time of the TDL, as did others.

The bottom line is that Lou and Shannahan messed up, Babs probably sold them on a magical run this year but it’s their job to see the big picture long term. Getting a couple extra 1st and 2nd round picks this year wouldve been huge for the Leafs and could’ve paid dividends as soon as next year.

There was a large ‘trade JVR’ crowd on this forum last summer and a smaller one at the TDL, and it’sclearly looking like we were right.

Best case would have been... based on market

Jvr for 1 and conditional 4
Bozak for 3
Komorov for 4th.

Not the end of the world. Late firsts aren’t What we should be gunning for

Bozak would’ve fetched a second no doubt, he was coming off a 55 point season and plays C. I think JVR gets a contender’s 1st + 3rd, especially if Leafs retained salary (its only one season).

That would’ve left the Leafs with the following for the 2018 draft:

Two 1st round picks
Three 2nd round picks
Two 3rd round picks
Two 4th round picks

That’s a lot of value right there for the 2018 draft. This would’ve allowed the Leafs to trade up for a JVR replacement (eg. Tkachuk, who projects to be a better player) or trade those picks (maybe with the 2019 1st) for a stud #1 Dman (or at least a young top pairing guy) now, or in the near future.

 

[GoonieFace]

Bozak would’ve fetched a second no doubt, he was coming off a 55 point season and plays C. I think JVR gets a contender’s 1st + 3rd, especially if Leafs retained salary (its only one season).

That would’ve left the Leafs with the following for the 2018 draft:

Two 1st round picks
Three 2nd round picks
Two 3rd round picks
Two 4th round picks

That’s a lot of value right there for the 2018 draft. This would’ve allowed the Leafs to trade up for a JVR replacement (eg. Tkachuk, who projects to be a better player) or trade those picks (maybe with the 2019 1st) for a stud #1 Dman (or at least a young top pairing guy) now, or in the near future.

Ridiculous. Get over this nonsense. It made no sense to trade either one of them.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

Ridiculous. Get over this nonsense. It made no sense to trade either one of them.

I hope you’re being sarcastic.

If not, please explain what benefit keeping JVR and Bozak and wasting a 2nd on Pleks has brought to the Leafs to make up for wasting all those assets the Leafs could have had?

 

[TheGoldenJet]

Sounds more like worst case ... based on market.



Sure, the optics would for that would be ugly. The off-season would have been fine though. And at one point in January we were 16th overall, then would have been fine too. Not sure why so many people are acting as if the TDL was the only time we could make trades.

Anyhow, season isn't over yet. JVR could win the Conn Smythe yet. Million to one shot sure but I think we should wait until we have a dead body before we start with the autopsy.

Really hope the Leafs kick ass tonight. Win tonight's game in style and this thread will take on an entirely different tone.

Good post. You were in favor of trading JVR too, IIRC. Rightly so, it would appear.

 

[Legion34]

Bozak would’ve fetched a second no doubt, he was coming off a 55 point season and plays C. I think JVR gets a contender’s 1st + 3rd, especially if Leafs retained salary (its only one season).

That would’ve left the Leafs with the following for the 2018 draft:

Two 1st round picks
Three 2nd round picks
Two 3rd round picks
Two 4th round picks

That’s a lot of value right there for the 2018 draft. This would’ve allowed the Leafs to trade up for a JVR replacement (eg. Tkachuk, who projects to be a better player) or trade those picks (maybe with the 2019 1st) for a stud #1 Dman (or at least a young top pairing guy) now, or in the near future.

Annnnd if the kids struggle? who was going to play center? What if there was a sophmore slump?

Jvrs 36 goals didn’t help set a record?

 

[TheGoldenJet]

Think about what you would be posting if we traded JVR, Bozak, and Komarov at the deadline and results of the last 2 games were exactly the same.

I have a pretty good guess what it would look like.

I’d be posting: “Hey guys, if Lou trades up, Leafs could have FOUR first rounders this year!”

 

[New User Name]

I'm on the side that wanted us to trade JVR, Bozak etc and NOT trade for Plekanec.

I'm shocked that anyone thought this team would go on a run in this years playoffs. We wasted a 2nd last year in getting Boyle too.

The Leafs are still a rebuilding team and even with JVR and Bozak are not good enough to contend for a cup. I think that's obvious to most fans now huh?

This will hurt but I'll say it anyways....this team is not as good as the 2013 team. (though it's potential is far better)

There was an opportunity to increase our draft picks and possibly package picks to move up in the draft and having players currently sitting in the press box take the place of those traded.

 

[GoonieFace]

I hope you’re being sarcastic.

If not, please explain what benefit keeping JVR and Bozak and wasting a 2nd on Pleks has brought to the Leafs to make up for wasting all those assets the Leafs could have had?

What kind of contending team trades 2/3rds of a scoring line? By your logic, every team in the league would trade all their UFA's before the deadline, which wouldn't work because there wouldn't be enough teams to trade for them.

I can imagine the conversation with the team. Great season so far guys, we are playoff bound, well except for you JVR and Bozak, you guys just got traded for a couple of 2nd rd draft picks.

Trading these guys is the most ridiculous logic. Having a chance at some playoff success with a young team is more valuable than a couple of draft picks that may never see the ice at an NHL level.

 

[New User Name]

What kind of contending team trades 2/3rds of a scoring line? By your logic, every team in the league would trade all their UFA's before the deadline, which wouldn't work because there wouldn't be enough teams to trade for them.

I can imagine the conversation with the team. Great season so far guys, we are playoff bound, well except for you JVR and Bozak, you guys just got traded for a couple of 2nd rd draft picks.

Trading these guys is the most ridiculous logic. Having a chance at some playoff success with a young team is more valuable than a couple of draft picks that may never see the ice at an NHL level.

You're delusional if you think the Leafs are a contending team. (if by contending you mean Cup contending) and we would received more than 2 seconds.

 

[Gary Nylund]

Good post. You were in favor of trading JVR too, IIRC. Rightly so, it would appear.

Yes. When it didn't happen I made my peace with it and promised I wouldn't complain too much. I can understand the reasoning behind doing what they did and even though I don't agree with it I can live with it. If they let Gardiner reach UFA status as a Leaf though I don't think I'll be as agreeable.

Anyhow, the season isn't over yet. Maybe JVR scores the winner tomorrow night, we'll see.

 

[GoonieFace]

You're delusional if you think the Leafs are a contending team. (if by contending you mean Cup contending)

Cup contender? Probably not. Win a round or two. Very possible. Fact is, you do not trade 2/3 of a successful line when you are the 7th overall team in the NHL for some draft picks (not even sure what kind of picks we would have gotten).

It's good to see we have capable people running this team for a change.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

Annnnd if the kids struggle? who was going to play center? What if there was a sophmore slump?

Jvrs 36 goals didn’t help set a record?

If Lou pulled the trigger at the TDL, Leafs were already in the playoffs, struggles or no. If it was back in the summer, I still don’t feel like it was a problem.

This was a good year to see if Nylander can be that big game 2C for the Leafs. If he struggled, well, Matthews-Kadri is still a helluva top 2, now that Matthews is scoring at over a PPG. We’d know Nylander is his winger for life.

Also, let’s not resort to strawmans, they would Not have set a record this year. They would likely still have made the playoffs without JVR though.

 

[New User Name]

Cup contender? Probably not. Win a round or two. Very possible. Fact is, you do not trade 2/3 of a successful line when you are the 7th overall team in the NHL for some draft picks (not even sure what kind of picks we would have gotten).

It's good to see we have capable people running this team for a change.

We can agree to disagree then.

The Bruins have embarrassed us (IMO) and exposed our blatant weaknesses. We won't win tomorrow and in fact I'll go so far and predict it'll be a blowout for Boston.

Would have been the same against Tampa.

We're an above average regular season team and a below average playoff team with the current roster.

 

[ShaneFalco]

JVR should have been dealt in the summer if the plan is to move on from him
Gardiner should be dealt this summer
As someone else mentioned in another thread, they need to move on from some guys - Komarov, Gardiner, Bozak, JVR, POLAK..... and change the makeup of the team a bit.

 

[PuckMagi]

I just wish that we either sold off UFAs or made some big upgrades (like getting McDonagh).

I didn't like the middle of the road approach where we kept all our UFAs, but only made a minor upgrade at the deadline.

Either we think we're good enough and we go for it... or don't think we're quite good enough and we sell off guys like JVR and take our chances with guys like Leivo.

 

[TheGoldenJet]

What kind of contending team trades 2/3rds of a scoring line? By your logic, every team in the league would trade all their UFA's before the deadline, which wouldn't work because there wouldn't be enough teams to trade for them.

I can imagine the conversation with the team. Great season so far guys, we are playoff bound, well except for you JVR and Bozak, you guys just got traded for a couple of 2nd rd draft picks.

Trading these guys is the most ridiculous logic. Having a chance at some playoff success with a young team is more valuable than a couple of draft picks that may never see the ice at an NHL level.

More than just a couple of draft picks. Don’t ignore the 1st rd pick either.

I don’t care about the conversations they’d be having with the likes of Bozak. “Thank you for your service” would've been the right thing to say. “Get the **** out” would’ve done the job as well.

Every team has a “chance” at playoff success. Leafs are in the same division as the two best teams in the East, both of which were adding huge pieces before the deadline, both of which have home ice advantage over the Leafs, and both of which are statistically favoured to beat them. This is the type of info that paid professionals in management take into account when deciding on whether or not to trade an expiring UFA.

Leafs chances this year to get out of the division in the playoffs were, statistically speaking, not good. As was Lou’s decision to keep JVR and Bozak. Especially last summer.

 

[Raging Bull]

The ironic part now is these pending UFA's and Plekanec are playing good, the top players are letting us down.

 

[LeafFever]

I'm on the side that wanted us to trade JVR, Bozak etc and NOT trade for Plekanec.

I'm shocked that anyone thought this team would go on a run in this years playoffs. We wasted a 2nd last year in getting Boyle too.

The Leafs are still a rebuilding team and even with JVR and Bozak are not good enough to contend for a cup. I think that's obvious to most fans now huh?

This will hurt but I'll say it anyways....this team is not as good as the 2013 team. (though it's potential is far better)

There was an opportunity to increase our draft picks and possibly package picks to move up in the draft and having players currently sitting in the press box take the place of those traded.

Cannot disagree more. Take a look at that roster.

 

[moon111]

How would we come up with a list of potential trade partners?

- Remove all non-playoff teams. If they wanted any of these players, they could just wait until the summer.
- Remove all playoff teams that don't have Cap space. Or should the Leafs retain salary?
- Remove all teams that JVR and Bozak don't want to play for. -They have limited no-trade clauses.
- Remove all teams that don't need their particular skillset because it would be redundant for their teams
and doesn't address their weaknesses.

Now after careful consideration by opposing General Managers, weighing these options open to the Leafs,
offer them what they're worth in this market. As the Leaf's GM, consider the signal this sends to the club.
Are you going to be excited after all the training, practice, travel, games, etc... and imagining the playoffs
and then the G.M. deals core players away? If you fail in the playoffs, who would you blame?
If you have a player like Komarov doing exactly as the coach is begging everyone to do get dealt, what
message does that send to players who rather be cherry-picking for offense rather then take defensive assignments?
As a young player dedicating themselves to the Leafs, about to sign that new contract... what do you tell
your agent as you see someone who's played their entire career for the Leafs be dealt for a draft pick?
Someone who signed that 'fair' contract in the past? You tell your agent, 'It's just business'.

This isn't some video game trade. There's people involved. It's not just the players that get dealt,
it's the players left behind. If the Leafs weren't going to make the playoffs and you could maybe give
a veteran player a chance at the Cup, it's understandable. If you were able to parley a deal into a
valuable defenseman? Maybe people are sad to see their teammate go, but would understand it
from a hockey perspective. But for low odd draft picks? You're killing the number one goal, which
is to turn the Leafs into not just a winning hockey team, but a winning organization. The rest will
follow. The fact is, the Leafs still haven't even gotten out of paying for Tim Gleason. Frankly fan's
stress about where the Leafs are now is amazing. It really is too soon for the Leafs. There time
hasn't come yet.

 

[Legion34]

If Lou pulled the trigger at the TDL, Leafs were already in the playoffs, struggles or no. If it was back in the summer, I still don’t feel like it was a problem.

This was a good year to see if Nylander can be that big game 2C for the Leafs. If he struggled, well, Matthews-Kadri is still a helluva top 2, now that Matthews is scoring at over a PPG. We’d know Nylander is his winger for life.

Also, let’s not resort to strawmans, they would Not have set a record this year. They would likely still have made the playoffs without JVR though.

Imagining a different past with your preferred version of events.... isn’t that a versionstraw man?

Jvr allows to insulate if a kid takes a step back. The team is flooded with youth.

 

[GoonieFace]

How would we come up with a list of potential trade partners?

- Remove all non-playoff teams. If they wanted any of these players, they could just wait until the summer.
- Remove all playoff teams that don't have Cap space. Or should the Leafs retain salary?
- Remove all teams that JVR and Bozak don't want to play for. -They have limited no-trade clauses.
- Remove all teams that don't need their particular skillset because it would be redundant for their teams
and doesn't address their weaknesses.

Now after careful consideration by opposing General Managers, weighing these options open to the Leafs,
offer them what they're worth in this market. As the Leaf's GM, consider the signal this sends to the club.
Are you going to be excited after all the training, practice, travel, games, etc... and imagining the playoffs
and then the G.M. deals core players away? If you fail in the playoffs, who would you blame?
If you have a player like Komarov doing exactly as the coach is begging everyone to do get dealt, what
message does that send to players who rather be cherry-picking for offense rather then take defensive assignments?
As a young player dedicating themselves to the Leafs, about to sign that new contract... what do you tell
your agent as you see someone who's played their entire career for the Leafs be dealt for a draft pick?
Someone who signed that 'fair' contract in the past? You tell your agent, 'It's just business'.

This isn't some video game trade. There's people involved. It's not just the players that get dealt,
it's the players left behind. If the Leafs weren't going to make the playoffs and you could maybe give
a veteran player a chance at the Cup, it's understandable. If you were able to parley a deal into a
valuable defenseman? Maybe people are sad to see their teammate go, but would understand it
from a hockey perspective. But for low odd draft picks? You're killing the number one goal, which
is to turn the Leafs into not just a winning hockey team, but a winning organization. The rest will
follow. The fact is, the Leafs still haven't even gotten out of paying for Tim Gleason. Frankly fan's
stress about where the Leafs are now is amazing. It really is too soon for the Leafs. There time
hasn't come yet.

Excellent post. People are delirious.

 

[Pocket Hercules]

St.Louis.

Just curious, if there was a bunch of other teams that had done this over say the last 5 years, would you be OK with it? Just curious if there's any room at all in your mind for independent thought or if you think that blindly following the majority is the way to go.

And look where they finished?...but thanks for making my point

Just curious, is there any room at all in your mind for not being a pretentious hipster and thinking you're the smartest person in this thread when it comes to hockey trades? Or better yet, why don't you go find Lou Lamoriello, or any other GM of an contending team for that matter, and tell him that you thought his 6th best team in the league should of subtracted from his main roster and added draft picks in order to satiate your fanboy fantasies.

After all...YOU know better, amirite?...

 

[Gary Nylund]

And look where they finished?...but thanks for making my point

Just curious, is there any room at all in your mind for not being a pretentious hipster and thinking you're the smartest person in this thread when it comes to hockey trades? Or better yet, why don't you go find Lou Lamoriello, or any other GM of an contending team for that matter, and tell him that you thought his 6th best team in the league should of subtracted from his main roster and added draft picks in order to satiate your fanboy fantasies.

Why so angry?

What point is it you think I've made for you? What are you even talking about, where St. Louis finished this season? You think had they not traded him and instead he walked as a UFA they would have finished higher? Care to explain how that works?

I've also said many times that it was pretty clear they wouldn't move him at the deadline, January though they were 16th overall at one point, they also weren't 6th overall in the off-season ... I guess you're so angry it's preventing you from understanding what people are posting and causing you to throw hissy fits.

Fanboy fantasies ... just grow up, not sure what else there is to say to you at this point. Enjoy your day.

 

[nsleaf]

In the big picture, there's a certain downside to the rebuild getting off the ground so quickly after the Matthews draft.

The most obvious is the Leafs have taken themselves out the running for drafting a couple more times in the top 1-10 in 2017 and 2018. On paper, Matthews, Nylander, Marner, Rielly, Dermott, Dahlin, Liljegren for example would nice if we had gone the Buffalo/Arizona way of building.

The second is we aren't clearing out JVR, Bozak, Komarov and (maybe Gardiner next year) for extra assets, which probably is depriving the system of at least half a dozen pretty good prospects.

The third is we've been taking out small loans out against the future in really short term deals with Boyle and the horrible Plekanec deal, which robs us of a couple of seconds and some depth guys.

So the fact that the Leafs have gotten good quickly is generally fantastic, the downside is it has cost us a top 10 pick this year, and maybe up to an entire draft class worth of prospects and assets, which could have filled more center depth, an extra goalie and a few defensemen with upside.

The downside of getting good fast is now they cannot get good slower.?

 

[The Apologist]

I’d be posting: “Hey guys, if Lou trades up, Leafs could have FOUR first rounders this year!”

Then you should properly take a look at a certain western team's board. They always have plenty of high firsts for you to salivate over.