OT: The Arizona Coyotes Lounge XVI - The Netflix, Disney+ Alternative

[RemoAZ]

Exactly! Similiar to four years ago when we had the troublesome decision between two great, overly qualified, and lovable candidates in Donald J Trump and Hillary Rodham Clinton. I was so confused on who to vote for that I almost skipped it.

The candidates aren't supposed to be the best candidates for you and me. They're the best candidates to keep widening the gap between the rich and poor. Bernie tried to throw a wrench into that and gained a huge following. Not sure if he'd been able to actually change anything but the Dems weren't about to let that happen. Corruption right in front of our eyes. With two garbage candidates running, they don't have to worry about fixing the election. Either one will keep the status quo.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

The candidates aren't supposed to be the best candidates for you and me. They're the best candidates to keep widening the gap between the rich and poor. Bernie tried to throw a wrench into that and gained a huge following. Not sure if he'd been able to actually change anything but the Dems weren't about to let that happen. Corruption right in front of our eyes. With two garbage candidates running, they don't have to worry about fixing the election. Either one will keep the status quo.

Bernie could run as an independent, thing is he's really there just to garner votes on the democratic ticket.

 

[_Del_]

I think that campaign might have gotten more support if they'd worded it in such a way as to imply 'reduce funding (so you can direct those funds towards our underserved community)' instead of a word like 'defund' implying 'get rid of the police force'...

Or words like "disband"...

but it does make it easy for the pro-cop/anti-black people to froth at the mouth.

There's the tribalism... "Go team! Red team sucks!"

 

[MIGs Dog]

Or words like "disband"...




There's the tribalism... "Go team! Red team sucks!"

I'm all for reform and improvements...all organizations can be improved. But when people talk about a "transformative new model" as if it's something that's never been done before, I'd like to hear details before jumping on board.

 

[MIGs Dog]

If cutting budgets improves policing, we should do the same for education, health care, transportation, and oh, oh, libraries too! Why wasn't this thought of before...damn revolutionary!

LA Mayor Slashes LAPD Budget As Calls To ‘Defund Police’ Slowly Pick Up Steam

 

[Tom Polakis]

If cutting budgets improves policing, we should do the same for education, health care, transportation, and oh, oh, libraries too! Why wasn't this thought of before...damn revolutionary!

LA Mayor Slashes LAPD Budget As Calls To ‘Defund Police’ Slowly Pick Up Steam

I would think increasing the budget specifically to improve training and recruit the highest caliber people into the force would be the direction to take, but what do I know?

 

[Grimes]

I would think increasing the budget specifically to improve training and recruit the highest caliber people into the force would be the direction to take, but what do I know?

So they don't do stuff like this? I think it will take a hell of a lot more the training. Maybe by making them feel less like Stormtroopers could be a start.

 

[_Del_]

Charge them, too.

 

[TheLegend]

In other news.... the A/C went out in my house yesterday afternoon.... it’s officially a chilly 98 degrees inside as of an hour ago.

So I’m now in an Olive Garden parking lot with the SUVs A/C on waiting for a table....

 

[XX]

If cutting budgets improves policing, we should do the same for education, health care, transportation, and oh, oh, libraries too! Why wasn't this thought of before...damn revolutionary!

LA Mayor Slashes LAPD Budget As Calls To ‘Defund Police’ Slowly Pick Up Steam

I would think increasing the budget specifically to improve training and recruit the highest caliber people into the force would be the direction to take, but what do I know?

It makes more sense if you view the LAPD as a gang and hitting their pockets as the only thing they really pay attention to or care about. Wanna f*** around and murder civilians? Liability claims come out of your budget. How about that?

Countries that train their cops a lot more and then have actual oversight don't have them running around like "thugs" on the street causing all sorts of havoc. The power of the police should come from collective citizen consent, not the threat of being mowed down by someone with a gun and a badge that protects them from all recourse.

You don't reward bad behavior. You punish it. If the cops reform and fatal interactions go way down, I am all for raises. I am all for de-escalation training. I am not in favor of paying people like Dave Grossman to radicalize police and teach them to use overwhelming force. I want a central database that tracks cops, not a system where they can be fired for malpractice (potentially killing someone in the process) and then get a job with another department.

We're talking about advanced steps, though. It would be nice to just start charging cops when charges are sorely due. Consistently. Just do that. The basics. And you'll see progress. They can start with that douchebag that murdered Daniel Shaver right down the road from me. He's now being paid a pension by Mesa.

 

[doaner]

I would think increasing the budget specifically to improve training and recruit the highest caliber people into the force would be the direction to take, but what do I know?

Cutting budgets make no sense. Disbanding police makes no sense. Start from the top and go down. Get more training for everyone, if that’s what it takes. You want the best quality individuals, you need to pay accordingly. You get what you pay for, so to speak.

 

[doaner]

So they don't do stuff like this? I think it will take a hell of a lot more the training. Maybe by making them feel less like Stormtroopers could be a start.

I guess they just stand down and let the city burn? Good decision!

 

[Sinurgy]

I guess they just stand down and let the city burn? Good decision!

I'm confused, how does pushing a 75yr old man to the concrete stop the city from burning? I mean did you see the video, his head hit hard, that's at the very least a major concussion there. I guess he's in serious but stable condition but he's probably f***ed regardless. Hits to the head like that have had pretty bad effects on younger people much less someone who is 75. There just has to be a better way to handle an "aggressive" senior citizen than pushing him backward onto concrete.

 

[Grimes]

I'm not looking to be a smart ass here, but I truly want to know what people's thoughts are on this. I do not own a gun not have I ever shot one. I had not been planning on doing either until about a year or so ago, so I'm clearly not much of a 2nd amendment advocate but respect the value of what it represents more than what it has become. This seems to go against what it represents.

Walmart removes firearms, ammunition from floor display as protests rage in U.S.

 

[Grimes]

I'm confused, how does pushing a 75yr old man to the concrete stop the city from burning? I mean did you see the video, his head hit hard, that's at the very least a major concussion there. I guess he's in serious but stable condition but he's probably f***ed regardless. Hits to the head like that have had pretty bad effects on younger people much less someone who is 75. There just has to be a better way to handle an "aggressive" senior citizen than pushing him backward onto concrete.

Wonder if he even has health care.

 

[Grimes]

I just don't understand this. I truly am having a difficult time comprehending a lot of what I'm seeing.



I mean at what point here do we view the cops as the rioters?

 

[Sinurgy]

I'm not looking to be a smart ass here, but I truly want to know what people's thoughts are on this. I do not own a gun not have I ever shot one. I had not been planning on doing either until about a year or so ago, so I'm clearly not much of a 2nd amendment advocate but respect the value of what it represents more than what it has become. This seems to go against what it represents.

Walmart removes firearms, ammunition from floor display as protests rage in U.S.

I'm unclear on what you're asking here?

I just don't understand this. I truly am having a difficult time comprehending a lot of what I'm seeing.



I mean at what point here do we view the cops as the rioters?

I think we're seeing exactly what everyone is protesting about. There seems to be a pervasive law enforcement mentality that demands compliance through intimidation and fear. A compulsive need to control the situation even when it really doesn't call for it. Now combine that mentality with mass protests that basically can't be controlled and you have a what we're witnessing now. A situation they're struggling to control and they just keep going back to the only tool they apparently have in their tool box, intimidation and fear.

How do you get yourself out of a hole? Why dig your way out of course!

 

[doaner]

I just don't understand this. I truly am having a difficult time comprehending a lot of what I'm seeing.



I mean at what point here do we view the cops as the rioters?

You’re joking, right?

 

[_Del_]

I think we're seeing exactly what everyone is protesting about

To be fair, I think we're also seeing why cops are so twitchy. How many incidents of shootings, stabbings, molotov cocktails, bricks, water bottles, etc occurred this week with an LEO as the target?
Like the poor NYPD footman who got blasted on social media and by his governor/mayor for pulling his weapon -- and then the longer clip came out that showed he'd been tackled and people had taken turns throwing things at his head first, and when he finally got on his feet, he pulled his weapon. Then last night a guy slashes one officer in the neck, takes his weapon and shoots two other officers...

I also think we've raised a generation with increasing numbers of self-absorbed douchebags who make up the population (and police). It's not really surprising that there's more conflict between them.

There are some relativity easy uncontroversial steps stopped primarily by budget concerns, imo.

First, it's impossible to effectively police a community without the involvement with/in the community. Having enough officers allows smaller beats (along with faster response time. That means people are seeing the same cops more frequently, and they have time to do more outside of actively responding to calls. Getting involved in the community and having interaction outside of official meetings. Humanize the neighborhoods and the officers. Make them get out and learn people's names, hear their concerns, build some trust. A community meeting is great, and a formal setting is probably fine for some things, but how many people are interested and attending?
Training, training, training. Also, experience, which means hiring/paying experienced officers instead of hiring new cadets and candidates.
There is zero excuse for any department in this day and age to not have body-cams and dash-cams. For everyone's protection. That's relatively small money, which should obviously pay dividends.
A deliberate shift towards increasingly deciding to charge officers who sit quietly on offenses instead of turning in other officers. LEO (and politicians and other state agents) should face harsher penalties than the citizenry for violating the social contract which gives them the authority they hold.

 

[MIGs Dog]

It makes more sense if you view the LAPD as a gang and hitting their pockets as the only thing they really pay attention to or care about. Wanna f*** around and murder civilians? Liability claims come out of your budget. How about that?

Countries that train their cops a lot more and then have actual oversight don't have them running around like "thugs" on the street causing all sorts of havoc. The power of the police should come from collective citizen consent, not the threat of being mowed down by someone with a gun and a badge that protects them from all recourse.

You don't reward bad behavior. You punish it. If the cops reform and fatal interactions go way down, I am all for raises. I am all for de-escalation training. I am not in favor of paying people like Dave Grossman to radicalize police and teach them to use overwhelming force. I want a central database that tracks cops, not a system where they can be fired for malpractice (potentially killing someone in the process) and then get a job with another department.

We're talking about advanced steps, though. It would be nice to just start charging cops when charges are sorely due. Consistently. Just do that. The basics. And you'll see progress. They can start with that douchebag that murdered Daniel Shaver right down the road from me. He's now being paid a pension by Mesa.

I have no idea what the proper funding level is for LAPD. The problem with the mayor's decision is that it appears to be a knee jerk reaction designed to appease the useful idiots that are calling for Defunding LE.

Is there a plan to "fix" policing? The mayor says he's putting a moratorium on new entries to the gang database and increasing penalties for police misconduct.

I'm all for holding cops accountable. The gang DB is a good tool to understand networks, pattern recognition, and predictive analysis. Why dump it?

 

[MIGs Dog]

To be fair, I think we're also seeing why cops are so twitchy. How many incidents of shootings, stabbings, molotov cocktails, bricks, water bottles, etc occurred this week with an LEO as the target?
Like the poor NYPD footman who got blasted on social media and by his governor/mayor for pulling his weapon -- and then the longer clip came out that showed he'd been tackled and people had taken turns throwing things at his head first, and when he finally got on his feet, he pulled his weapon. Then last night a guy slashes one officer in the neck, takes his weapon and shoots two other officers...

I also think we've raised a generation with increasing numbers of self-absorbed douchebags who make up the population (and police). It's not really surprising that there's more conflict between them.

There are some relativity easy uncontroversial steps stopped primarily by budget concerns, imo.

First, it's impossible to effectively police a community without the involvement with/in the community. Having enough officers allows smaller beats (along with faster response time. That means people are seeing the same cops more frequently, and they have time to do more outside of actively responding to calls. Getting involved in the community and having interaction outside of official meetings. Humanize the neighborhoods and the officers. Make them get out and learn people's names, hear their concerns, build some trust. A community meeting is great, and a formal setting is probably fine for some things, but how many people are interested and attending?
Training, training, training. Also, experience, which means hiring/paying experienced officers instead of hiring new cadets and candidates.
There is zero excuse for any department in this day and age to not have body-cams and dash-cams. For everyone's protection. That's relatively small money, which should obviously pay dividends.
A deliberate shift towards increasingly deciding to charge officers who sit quietly on offenses instead of turning in other officers. LEO (and politicians and other state agents) should face harsher penalties than the citizenry for violating the social contract which gives them the authority they hold.

The LA mayor said he wants to do what you are suggesting, develop long term relationship between police and youth, but that requires more cops and money.

 

[MIGs Dog]

I'm unclear on what you're asking here?


I think we're seeing exactly what everyone is protesting about. There seems to be a pervasive law enforcement mentality that demands compliance through intimidation and fear. A compulsive need to control the situation even when it really doesn't call for it. Now combine that mentality with mass protests that basically can't be controlled and you have a what we're witnessing now. A situation they're struggling to control and they just keep going back to the only tool they apparently have in their tool box, intimidation and fear.

How do you get yourself out of a hole? Why dig your way out of course!

I generally agree with what you are saying, but would add that civil society is not the result of effective policing, it comes from the people respecting the rule of law. In other words, police can't fix societal problems, they primarily exist to deal with the aftermath.

 

[MIGs Dog]

I'm not looking to be a smart ass here, but I truly want to know what people's thoughts are on this. I do not own a gun not have I ever shot one. I had not been planning on doing either until about a year or so ago, so I'm clearly not much of a 2nd amendment advocate but respect the value of what it represents more than what it has become. This seems to go against what it represents.

Walmart removes firearms, ammunition from floor display as protests rage in U.S.

I think Walmart removed the guns from the floor to prevent potential looters from swiping them. Sounds like a very responsible move.

This gun store owner started sleeping in his store after an attempted break in. The next group that busted in found out why robbing a gun shop can be a bad idea.

As S. Philly gun store owner kills potential looter, customers line up for firearms at other dealers

 

[XX]

I generally agree with what you are saying, but would add that civil society is not the result of effective policing, it comes from the people respecting the rule of law. In other words, police can't fix societal problems, they primarily exist to deal with the aftermath.

The police are manufacturing problems right now. They are the originator of some, especially in particular communities. And it makes sense, the same as private prisons; there's a perverse incentive to never make things better, because that's not what attracts funding. We're pretty far disconnected from "a crime was uncovered and dealt with, society enjoyed a net gain!"

Right now, there's no real way to value good departments vs bad, or to reward good cops vs bad. It makes sense then that you end up with some good but plenty of garbage as well. In other countries, the training process is a lot more involved and the oversight a lot more strict. I can't keep track of the stories of cops in the U.S. jumping departments after being found out, or stories of cops that did not do well in training assessments but ended up on the streets anyways. I would like to pay them more and attract better candidates, but the whole system seems beyond repair at this point.

People have no respect for the police anymore, and for good reason. The cops that put that old man in serious condition in the hospital initially tried to lie and say he tripped. Then the video came out and there was no hiding from it. It's not hard to see the militarism and the tribalism. You just have to pay attention for a moment. George Floyd would be just another tally in a stat sheet somewhere without video.

People are reaching their breaking point because everyone has a camera in their pocket now and they're done with this shit.

 

[MIGs Dog]

The police are manufacturing problems right now. They are the originator of some, especially in particular communities. And it makes sense, the same as private prisons; there's a perverse incentive to never make things better, because that's not what attracts funding. We're pretty far disconnected from "a crime was uncovered and dealt with, society enjoyed a net gain!"

Right now, there's no real way to value good departments vs bad, or to reward good cops vs bad. It makes sense then that you end up with some good but plenty of garbage as well. In other countries, the training process is a lot more involved and the oversight a lot more strict. I can't keep track of the stories of cops in the U.S. jumping departments after being found out, or stories of cops that did not do well in training assessments but ended up on the streets anyways. I would like to pay them more and attract better candidates, but the whole system seems beyond repair at this point.

People have no respect for the police anymore, and for good reason. The cops that put that old man in serious condition in the hospital initially tried to lie and say he tripped. Then the video came out and there was no hiding from it. It's not hard to see the militarism and the tribalism. You just have to pay attention for a moment. George Floyd would be just another tally in a stat sheet somewhere without video.

People are reaching their breaking point because everyone has a camera in their pocket now and they're done with this shit.

I've seen in the military where good leaders can turn around an organization very quickly. It can happen in police departments. From the data I've seen, it looks like accountability is one area that needs addressing. Perhaps independent committees to review complaints would help.