OT: The Arizona Coyotes Lounge XVI - The Netflix, Disney+ Alternative

[XX]

I've seen in the military where good leaders can turn around an organization very quickly. It can happen in police departments. From the data I've seen, it looks like accountability is one area that needs addressing. Perhaps independent committees to review complaints would help.

Military personnel are generally removed from their local community, broken down, and rebuilt as the military sees fit. The goal being to develop professionalism and an espirit de corps.

The police are not military, nor should they ever be. They should wear blue, not black or camo. They should drive clearly marked bright ass emergency vehicles, not darkened tacticool crap. They should be closer to firefighters than to the military. Every unholstering of a gun should be treated as a very serious thing. Taking your AR-15 out of your cruiser? Even more serious. Body cams and dash cams should be mandatory, with automatic, serious penalties for not being able to furnish footage/tampering with the cameras.

Cops ultimately need about 3x more training before they are allowed to be out on the streets, with the majority of it being in practical de-escalation. Then you need to absolutely nail anyone that violates the public trust with serious charges, including automatic escalators for being a public official. I wager just those two things would cut malpractice in half, if not more. They also need to look at policies involving petty misdemeanors, because those are almost always used as a pretense to selectively harass certain communities. You can bet a majority of those laws would not be on the books if they were enforced consistently.

Most countries with model police take 2+ years to train them. The U.S. standard isn't even close to that. We're not even really training these folks to begin with and then not supervising them or giving them a real reason to behave. The end result is as expected.

 

[MIGs Dog]

Military personnel are generally removed from their local community, broken down, and rebuilt as the military sees fit. The goal being to develop professionalism and an espirit de corps.

The police are not military, nor should they ever be. They should wear blue, not black or camo. They should drive clearly marked bright ass emergency vehicles, not darkened tacticool crap. They should be closer to firefighters than to the military. Every unholstering of a gun should be treated as a very serious thing. Taking your AR-15 out of your cruiser? Even more serious. Body cams and dash cams should be mandatory, with automatic, serious penalties for not being able to furnish footage/tampering with the cameras.

Cops ultimately need about 3x more training before they are allowed to be out on the streets, with the majority of it being in practical de-escalation. Then you need to absolutely nail anyone that violates the public trust with serious charges, including automatic escalators for being a public official. I wager just those two things would cut malpractice in half, if not more. They also need to look at policies involving petty misdemeanors, because those are almost always used as a pretense to selectively harass certain communities. You can bet a majority of those laws would not be on the books if they were enforced consistently.

Most countries with model police take 2+ years to train them. The U.S. standard isn't even close to that. We're not even really training these folks to begin with and then not supervising them or giving them a real reason to behave. The end result is as expected.

I'm using the military just as a leadership example, not saying they should emulate the military in every way. I could point to businesses that are turned around by a change in leadership as well. The leadership at Minneapolis PD was completely ineffective; 44 people were choked to the point of unconsciousness in the last 5 years. What did the leadership do to change this obviously dangerous and abusive practice?

You are absolutely right on the training aspect. The average time required to obtain a cosmetology license in the U.S. is 1500 hours, while the average police academy is 840 hours. Yes, then the cop has OJT with a more experienced officer. That's probably when they learn the knee on neck technique that they don't teach at the academy.

 

[Jakey53]

I'm all for reform and improvements...all organizations can be improved. But when people talk about a "transformative new model" as if it's something that's never been done before, I'd like to hear details before jumping on board.

If the money would go where it should it would be fine. We all know, the top gets their cut first and the real workers get next to nothing. All government departments or organizations right from the federal to the cities budgets are so out of wack it is ridiculous. Too many departments and all are top heavy. The models worked before and would work again if run right. Money and corruption at it's finest.

 

[Jakey53]

So they don't do stuff like this? I think it will take a hell of a lot more the training. Maybe by making them feel less like Stormtroopers could be a start.

That man got what he deserved.

 

[Jakey53]

It makes more sense if you view the LAPD as a gang and hitting their pockets as the only thing they really pay attention to or care about. Wanna f*** around and murder civilians? Liability claims come out of your budget. How about that?

Countries that train their cops a lot more and then have actual oversight don't have them running around like "thugs" on the street causing all sorts of havoc. The power of the police should come from collective citizen consent, not the threat of being mowed down by someone with a gun and a badge that protects them from all recourse.

You don't reward bad behavior. You punish it. If the cops reform and fatal interactions go way down, I am all for raises. I am all for de-escalation training. I am not in favor of paying people like Dave Grossman to radicalize police and teach them to use overwhelming force. I want a central database that tracks cops, not a system where they can be fired for malpractice (potentially killing someone in the process) and then get a job with another department.

We're talking about advanced steps, though. It would be nice to just start charging cops when charges are sorely due. Consistently. Just do that. The basics. And you'll see progress. They can start with that douchebag that murdered Daniel Shaver right down the road from me. He's now being paid a pension by Mesa.

99.99% of the cops are good, but the social media makes it look the opposite. There are bad apples in every organization, department or whatever you want to call it. No one is above the law, we just have to enforce them.

 

[Jakey53]

To be fair, I think we're also seeing why cops are so twitchy. How many incidents of shootings, stabbings, molotov cocktails, bricks, water bottles, etc occurred this week with an LEO as the target?
Like the poor NYPD footman who got blasted on social media and by his governor/mayor for pulling his weapon -- and then the longer clip came out that showed he'd been tackled and people had taken turns throwing things at his head first, and when he finally got on his feet, he pulled his weapon. Then last night a guy slashes one officer in the neck, takes his weapon and shoots two other officers...

I also think we've raised a generation with increasing numbers of self-absorbed douchebags who make up the population (and police). It's not really surprising that there's more conflict between them.

There are some relativity easy uncontroversial steps stopped primarily by budget concerns, imo.

First, it's impossible to effectively police a community without the involvement with/in the community. Having enough officers allows smaller beats (along with faster response time. That means people are seeing the same cops more frequently, and they have time to do more outside of actively responding to calls. Getting involved in the community and having interaction outside of official meetings. Humanize the neighborhoods and the officers. Make them get out and learn people's names, hear their concerns, build some trust. A community meeting is great, and a formal setting is probably fine for some things, but how many people are interested and attending?
Training, training, training. Also, experience, which means hiring/paying experienced officers instead of hiring new cadets and candidates.
There is zero excuse for any department in this day and age to not have body-cams and dash-cams. For everyone's protection. That's relatively small money, which should obviously pay dividends.
A deliberate shift towards increasingly deciding to charge officers who sit quietly on offenses instead of turning in other officers. LEO (and politicians and other state agents) should face harsher penalties than the citizenry for violating the social contract which gives them the authority they hold.

Exactly. They did that years ago. The models work, but they have gotten away from it. The public have to take blame here also. Who the hell are raising these kids? Where are the parents? Social media I believe is the biggest problem we have.

 

[doaner]

Military personnel are generally removed from their local community, broken down, and rebuilt as the military sees fit. The goal being to develop professionalism and an espirit de corps.

The police are not military, nor should they ever be. They should wear blue, not black or camo. They should drive clearly marked bright ass emergency vehicles, not darkened tacticool crap. They should be closer to firefighters than to the military. Every unholstering of a gun should be treated as a very serious thing. Taking your AR-15 out of your cruiser? Even more serious. Body cams and dash cams should be mandatory, with automatic, serious penalties for not being able to furnish footage/tampering with the cameras.

Cops ultimately need about 3x more training before they are allowed to be out on the streets, with the majority of it being in practical de-escalation. Then you need to absolutely nail anyone that violates the public trust with serious charges, including automatic escalators for being a public official. I wager just those two things would cut malpractice in half, if not more. They also need to look at policies involving petty misdemeanors, because those are almost always used as a pretense to selectively harass certain communities. You can bet a majority of those laws would not be on the books if they were enforced consistently.

Most countries with model police take 2+ years to train them. The U.S. standard isn't even close to that. We're not even really training these folks to begin with and then not supervising them or giving them a real reason to behave. The end result is as expected.

Have you ever done a ride along?

 

[Jakey53]

The police are manufacturing problems right now. They are the originator of some, especially in particular communities. And it makes sense, the same as private prisons; there's a perverse incentive to never make things better, because that's not what attracts funding. We're pretty far disconnected from "a crime was uncovered and dealt with, society enjoyed a net gain!"

Right now, there's no real way to value good departments vs bad, or to reward good cops vs bad. It makes sense then that you end up with some good but plenty of garbage as well. In other countries, the training process is a lot more involved and the oversight a lot more strict. I can't keep track of the stories of cops in the U.S. jumping departments after being found out, or stories of cops that did not do well in training assessments but ended up on the streets anyways. I would like to pay them more and attract better candidates, but the whole system seems beyond repair at this point.

People have no respect for the police anymore, and for good reason. The cops that put that old man in serious condition in the hospital initially tried to lie and say he tripped. Then the video came out and there was no hiding from it. It's not hard to see the militarism and the tribalism. You just have to pay attention for a moment. George Floyd would be just another tally in a stat sheet somewhere without video.

People are reaching their breaking point because everyone has a camera in their pocket now and they're done with this shit.

The problem is the people do not respect the police. You make is sound like all police departments, officers are bad. People can entice police officers and then when the officers react, they push the record button and we only see the part where the police react. Much of the problem is everyone has that camera in their pocket and then upload it on YouTube and that video can be edited to fit their narrative. Use to be "believe all what you see and half of what you hear". That is not true any longer because of social media.

 

[doaner]

I'm using the military just as a leadership example, not saying they should emulate the military in every way. I could point to businesses that are turned around by a change in leadership as well. The leadership at Minneapolis PD was completely ineffective; 44 people were choked to the point of unconsciousness in the last 5 years. What did the leadership do to change this obviously dangerous and abusive practice?

You are absolutely right on the training aspect. The average time required to obtain a cosmetology license in the U.S. is 1500 hours, while the average police academy is 840 hours. Yes, then the cop has OJT with a more experienced officer. That's probably when they learn the knee on neck technique that they don't teach at the academy.

I'm using the military just as a leadership example, not saying they should emulate the military in every way. I could point to businesses that are turned around by a change in leadership as well. The leadership at Minneapolis PD was completely ineffective; 44 people were choked to the point of unconsciousness in the last 5 years. What did the leadership do to change this obviously dangerous and abusive practice?

You are absolutely right on the training aspect. The average time required to obtain a cosmetology license in the U.S. is 1500 hours, while the average police academy is 840 hours. Yes, then the cop has OJT with a more experienced officer. That's probably when they learn the knee on neck technique that they don't teach at the academy.

Yeah, no. I highly doubt that was ever taught in field training. That’s why all cops are appalled by what happened. Have you been an LEO or anyone else here? Sure seem to ‘know’ a lot about it.
I’m out boys. This is just getting too nuts. Couldn’t give two shits about hockey or sports anymore anyways. Good luck everyone and stay safe.

 

[Jakey53]

Have you ever done a ride along?

Great point. We the public have no idea what these cops go through. The cops get no respect.

 

[Jagged Ice]

Great point. We the public have no idea what these cops go through. The cops get no respect.

Derek Chauvin would be going about his daily work routine this morning had that moment not been recorded.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

It makes more sense if you view the LAPD as a gang and hitting their pockets as the only thing they really pay attention to or care about. Wanna f*** around and murder civilians? Liability claims come out of your budget. How about that?

That's excellent, but not what one thinks of when the term defunding is used.

 

[Coyotedroppings]

Great point. We the public have no idea what these cops go through. The cops get no respect.

This is true, to an extent. Problem is that those have consistently suffered abuse at the hands of police will never see this until the abuse stops. Mistakes will be made, but they won't be seen as mistakes until a generation sees vast improvent.

 

[MIGs Dog]

This is true, to an extent. Problem is that those have consistently suffered abuse at the hands of police will never see this until the abuse stops. Mistakes will be made, but they won't be seen as mistakes until a generation sees vast improvent.

You'll never completely eliminate police acting badly, and with everyone carrying a high resolution video camera that can distribute images instantly to billions around the globe, any misstep will be magnified.

That said, PDs can do better. An analysis over 1000 complaints against Minneapolis PD revealed fewer than 20 disciplinary actions. Sure, there will be false complaints, but that ratio is way out of wack.

 

[Jakey53]

Derek Chauvin would be going about his daily work routine this morning had that moment not been recorded.

I have said it more than once, and I will repeat it again. There are a--holes in every walk of life in every profession, and Chauvin is one of those, but 99.9999% of the cops out there are good and protect YOU and I.

 

[rt]

I have said it more than once, and I will repeat it again. There are a--holes in every walk of life in every profession, and Chauvin is one of those, but 99.9999% of the cops out there are good and protect YOU and I.

99.9999% is too high. I would agree if you said a "majority".

 

[rt]

You'll never completely eliminate police acting badly, and with everyone carrying a high resolution video camera that can distribute images instantly to billions around the globe, any misstep will be magnified.

That said, PDs can do better. An analysis over 1000 complaints against Minneapolis PD revealed fewer than 20 disciplinary actions. Sure, there will be false complaints, but that ratio is way out of wack.

They know when they have a guy who's a "problem". We need to figure out how to force those guys out more quickly.

 

[Jakey53]

This is true, to an extent. Problem is that those have consistently suffered abuse at the hands of police will never see this until the abuse stops. Mistakes will be made, but they won't be seen as mistakes until a generation sees vast improvent.

What is abuse? Why are those consistently suffering abuse at the hands of the police? Is abuse when cops have to take down a husband during domestic violence? What happens when a cop is shot and killed at a domestic violence call? We don't have riots when that happens. You are talking through your know what. Like Doaner said, take a ride along and you will see how dangerous and violent it is. You better wear your depends because you will need them. I think this will take a turn for the better after a generation of respecting the police.

 

[Jakey53]

99.9999% is too high. I would agree if you said a "majority".

It's probably too low.

 

[rt]

It's probably too low.

Cmon man, that’s some very dumb shit.

 

[Vinny Boombatz]

They know when they have a guy who's a "problem". We need to figure out how to force those guys out more quickly.

Need to figure out how to "not hire them" in the first place...there has got to be some characteristics that would come up on some sort of psych test that would reveal that Chauvin was a bad apple. I'm certain that 99.9% of the time they are douchebags before they even put on the uniform.

 

[Jakey53]

They know when they have a guy who's a "problem". We need to figure out how to force those guys out more quickly.

I think it starts with the hiring process. The problem though is that it's a terrible job along with a so so salary, so it gets harder and harder to recruit new cops.Can you imagine if every day you go to work could be your last? Every shift you are taking a knife to a gun fight as every criminal has better weapons than them. Cops probably take abuse from the public every shift while on duty, even the guy who gets a ticket for speeding. It's a thankless job, and there is no excuse what happened to Floyd, but I thank my lucky stars that we have these courageous people working on the job every day.

 

[XX]

They know when they have a guy who's a "problem". We need to figure out how to force those guys out more quickly.

57 members of Buffalo police riot response team resign

There's apparently a lot of 'problems' out there.

 

[Jakey53]

Need to figure out how to "not hire them" in the first place...there has got to be some characteristics that would come up on some sort of psych test that would reveal that Chauvin was a bad apple. I'm certain that 99.9% of the time they are douchebags before they even put on the uniform.

I agree, and this could be true, but I think the job and it's pressure takes a toll on one's mind over time. Maybe instead of trying to point fingers at the cops and their hiring process etc. we should look at educating the people to respect the police more. The police have to get back to the basics and have more community involvement, go to schools and talk to the kids. End result we have to respect the police more.

 

[MIGs Dog]

What is abuse?

Excessive force is what we are talking about, which is using more force than necessary to get the job done. What's excessive is open to interpretation, which is why we need better trained cops, more cameras, and independent investigation of complaints to root out the Chauvins.