Confirmed with Link: The All Star/Jersey Retirement thread.

[Lafleurs Guy]

But assuming his career ends today, do you think he deserves it?

No.

 

[Genesis76]

No.

See we’re not that different afterall

 

[groovejuice]

This seems to be a common refrain for all of our players after about 1995.

The ownership, GM, coaches and quality of drafting are all significant contributors to the fortunes of the team. 25 years without a Cup or even a Final appearance is a damn good sign that something is rotten in Denmark.

This team has been living off a reputation of excellence for far too long, while very little excellence has actually been visible.

 

[Per Sjoblom]

It's for the best. Gallagher, Price, Weber... they're all banged up. The only guy who I'd have really been okay/happy to see go would be Domi. He's young, never been and he's had a great year. He'd be worthy of inclusion this year.

Will Price be suspended like Ovi for not going?

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

The ownership, GM, coaches and quality of drafting are all significant contributors to the fortunes of the team. 25 years without a Cup or even a Final appearance is a damn good sign that something is rotten in Denmark.

This team has been living off a reputation of excellence for far too long, while very little excellence has actually been visible.

Ivory tower syndrome

 

[Genesis76]

The ownership, GM, coaches and quality of drafting are all significant contributors to the fortunes of the team. 25 years without a Cup or even a Final appearance is a damn good sign that something is rotten in Denmark.

This team has been living off a reputation of excellence for far too long, while very little excellence has actually been visible.

Yes exactly and refusing to admit that the major moves they’ve made were all bad won’t help us find our path to success.

Top of the list, trading Subban

 

[Genesis76]

Ivory tower syndrome

Thats what happens when the leaders distance them selfs too much from the action.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

The ownership, GM, coaches and quality of drafting are all significant contributors to the fortunes of the team. 25 years without a Cup or even a Final appearance is a damn good sign that something is rotten in Denmark.

This team has been living off a reputation of excellence for far too long, while very little excellence has actually been visible.

It looked like we actually might've been able to win something despite ourselves but we made a tragic mistake. We hired the wrong GM at the exact wrong time. Then he went and hired the exact wrong coaches and we completely screwed ourselves.

MB coming on board in 2013 was a disastrous move. MB may not have been the worst GM we've ever had but he's done the most damage. At least with Houle we were already in decline. MB came in with a good young team and destroyed it. I truly believe that the club we had post 2013 had the real potential of becoming a cup contender with a few moves. With Price and Subban I think we could've won a cup somewhere along the way. Ultimately once we traded Subban that window was effectively closed. Two fr

When Price went down in 2016 (after an incredible start) the team crashed and Subban took the blame. If Price is healthy that year my guess is he wins another Vezina and Subban wins another Norris. That really looked like the year we might've been able to do something... unfortunately it's all 'ifs and buts' in that scenario. We all know what happened though, Price goes down, the team crashes without him and PK gets the goat horns from MT. Then we double down with the coach over our star player - where have we seen that before?

Will Price be suspended like Ovi for not going?

Suspended.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

2012 and 2016 were not good seasons for Subban. But that’s besides the point. We don’t know how the club will handle players who haven’t won a cup because it hasn’t happened yet. And it seems like this team could be waiting awhile before we ever do. Depending on how long it goes on for, they’ll either have to change how to evaluate players or not consider them at all. If they do start including players who haven’t won a cup, a goalie with 400+ wins with the team will be at the top of the list.

It's also false to say the team went down as soon as Subban left. The team crashed with him in 2016 when Price got hurt. That's a big reason why he got traded to begin with. Dumb thing to do but hey, this is MB.

 

[Genesis76]

It's also false to say the team went down as soon as Subban left. The team crashed with him in 2016 when Price got hurt. That's a big reason why he got traded to begin with. Dumb thing to do but hey, this is MB.

In 2012 both Price and Subban were there, team finished last. That invalids your point.

Price going down wasn’t the reason the team failed in 2016. Nah the reason was the lack of clear leadership in the organisation (aka captain Patioready) . Subban was the one keeping the team afloat and the invisible man was the one bringing it down with his shitty attitude.


So yes the team struggles big time without Subban. He left and we went from being a top tier team to a mid to bottom tier one.

The Nashville automaticly became serious contenders with him in the lineup. They were not with Weber.

its simple, Subban makes everyone better.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

2011-2017 cummulatively he's got the best save percentage in the league (350 game minimium)
In that stretch he's got three Vezina nominees plus a 5th place finish to go along with to top ten Hart finishes plus the awards he actually won. Yes, he was the best goalie in hockey.

In 2011 he's 7th in Hart voting, 5th in Vezina and plays 72 games and that's behind a bad team. The following season he's behind one of the worst teams in the league and still puts up good numbers. 2013 he was a Vezina contender until the last ten games of a shortened season. 2014 through 17 he's fantastic.

You say he's terrible in 2015-16? What the hell are you talking about? He was sitting at .934 and on his way to another dominating season. Getting hurt doesn't count against him as a terrible year. And in 2017 he's another Vezina nominee.

From 2011 to 2017 despite playing behind some pretty bad teams he's got the best stats in hockey. To go along with that he's go three Vezina nominations, another season where he places 5th, two top ten Hart seasons, A Hart, Pearson and Vezina trophy. And this is while missing most of the 2015-16 season.

He hasn't got a HOF resume yet, but if he puts up a few more good years he's a probable HOFer. Also worth noting that since Weber's return he's sitting at something like .920 save percentage.

We'll see on his career but I'd bet on him getting in. Koivu has no chance so I don't think he belongs in the conversation. The only other guy would be Markov. He had no individual awards, no Norris nods, no all-star selections. He was very good for a long period of time but to me he's not dominant enough to warrant jersey retirement let alone the HOF.

Bottom line is if Price doesn't make the HOF then it's going to be a while before I think we should be looking at retiring anyone's number.

Yeah, I fudged my numbers on 2015-2016 somehow, still he's been mostly good, followed by bad, he had a 2 year stretch where we he the best, that's it imo.

 

[nhlfan9191]

It's also false to say the team went down as soon as Subban left. The team crashed with him in 2016 when Price got hurt. That's a big reason why he got traded to begin with. Dumb thing to do but hey, this is MB.

He had a bad season like most of the team. He was injured the second week of March. Saying he was the reason the team crashed isn’t even close to the truth. That team started a free fall in December 2015.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Yeah, I fudged my numbers on 2015-2016 somehow, still he's been mostly good, followed by bad, he had a 2 year stretch where we he the best, that's it imo.

Sorry but no. Cumulatively from 2011 to 2017 he has the best save percentage in the league. This whole "it was only one season" crap doesn't fly. In 2011 he finished 7th in Hart voting for Pete's sake.

Most goalies don't even start their careers until their mid 20s. Price is 31 and already is at 300 wins, four top five Vezina finishes, two top 10 Hart seasons.... not to mention the awards he's actually won. That's a HOF trajectory.

Similar to Subban, he hasn't done enough for a HOF birth yet, but he's certainly on pace.

He had a bad season like most of the team. He was injured the second week of March. Saying he was the reason the team crashed isn’t even close to the truth. That team started a free fall in December 2015.

What in the world are you talking about?

In 2014 we were a 100 point team. In 2015 we were 110 and Price was 44-16 with a .933 save percentage. Price was 10-2 with a .934 save percentage when he went down. That's not a small sample size. And after he went down - despite the hot start - we finished with 82 points and went from the best save percentage in the league to one of the worst.... yeah, must be a coincidence.

After Price went down we crashed and burned and PK (unfairly) took the blame.

In 2012 both Price and Subban were there, team finished last. That invalids your point...

That team was significantly worse than the one in 2016

And I'm not getting into a Price debate with somebody who's still upset that we got rid of Halak ten years later...

 

[1909]

Assume two populations:
- A : people superelite at Thing with a population of n = nA
- B : people elite at Thing with a population of n = nB
Such that A and B are mutually exclusive. And such that nB >10*nA. The skill level (higher the better) at Thing of individuals in each population follows a normal distribution with the following properties :
- A : mean of mA, standard deviation of sA
- B : mean of mB, standard deviation of sB
Such that mA > mB + 2*sB and such that sA < sB.

Is finishing 5th amongst a population A (nA individuals) less impressive than finishing 10th amongst a population A+B (over 10*nA individuals) ?

I did not understand anything.... But you're great at maths for sure. Congrats !

 

[nhlfan9191]

The ownership, GM, coaches and quality of drafting are all significant contributors to the fortunes of the team. 25 years without a Cup or even a Final appearance is a damn good sign that something is rotten in Denmark.

This team has been living off a reputation of excellence for far too long, while very little excellence has actually been visible.

The ‘93 cup win was an amazing one with all OT wins and stories, but I feel like puking when our organization markets it every year like it happened yesterday. Its backwards. This team wants to promote things that happened decades ago instead of promote the future. I like to dream Molson whoever who owns the team in the future starts to see the franchise start taking a hit pocket wise if this goes on but sadly I don’t see that happening.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

The ‘93 cup win was an amazing one with all OT wins and stories, but I feel like puking when our organization markets it every year like it happened yesterday. Its backwards. This team wants to promote things that happened decades ago instead of promote the future. I like to dream Molson whoever who owns the team in the future starts to see the franchise start taking a hit pocket wise if this goes on but sadly I don’t see that happening.

It reminds me of the whole '67 thing the Leafs did for years upon years. It became a huge joke.

I'm all for the retiring of numbers though. Those legends should be remembered forever.

 

[nhlfan9191]

Sorry but no. Cumulatively from 2011 to 2017 he has the best save percentage in the league. This whole "it was only one season" crap doesn't fly. In 2011 he finished 7th in Hart voting for Pete's sake.

Most goalies don't even start their careers until their mid 20s. Price is 31 and already is at 300 wins, four top five Vezina finishes, two top 10 Hart seasons.... not to mention the awards he's actually won. That's a HOF trajectory.

Similar to Subban, he hasn't done enough for a HOF birth yet, but he's certainly on pace.

What in the world are you talking about?

In 2014 we were a 100 point team. In 2015 we were 110 and Price was 44-16 with a .933 save percentage. Price was 10-2 with a .934 save percentage when he went down. That's not a small sample size. And after he went down - despite the hot start - we finished with 82 points and went from the best save percentage in the league to one of the worst.... yeah, must be a coincidence.

After Price went down we crashed and burned and PK (unfairly) took the blame.

That team was significantly worse than the one in 2016

And I'm not getting into a Price debate with somebody who's still upset that we got rid of Halak ten years later...

I should’ve been more clear. I was talking about Subban.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

I should’ve been more clear. I was talking about Subban.

Ah sorry.

Well to be fair to Subban he started that season amazingly well. 2016 looked like it was going to be the year we were going to make a serious run. We'd had three straight 100 point seasons (2013 was shortened but we were pacing for it) and Price was coming off that insane year. Things sure looked like they were heading the right way - and in that case it wasn't just an October cup - we were legitimately continuing a trend that had been happening in previous seasons.

Anyways, I'd be willling to bet that if Price doesn't get hurt that year Subban would've had another monster season. When we started to lose though he really got beat up on. And on these very boards people went on and on about 'how he's supposed to be a superstar why can't he elevate the team to win?' It was pretty unfair in my view.

No player can do it entirely alone. Some players can "carry" teams with little help but it's impossible to do when you're missing key guys. The Habs for years had bad possession numbers, this is despite having guys like Subban who were amazingly good at keeping the puck in the other end. But overall we were pretty bad with Therrien behind the bench. And as a result we wound up relying heavily on Price. And when he went down a whole lot of the burden falls to Subban and he wasn't able to carry the team on his own. And I don't think any player could to be honest.

 

[nhlfan9191]

Ah sorry.

Well to be fair to Subban he started that season amazingly well. 2016 looked like it was going to be the year we were going to make a serious run. We'd had three straight 100 point seasons (2013 was shortened but we were pacing for it) and Price was coming off that insane year. Things sure looked like they were heading the right way - and in that case it wasn't just an October cup - we were legitimately continuing a trend that had been happening in previous seasons.

Anyways, I'd be willling to bet that if Price doesn't get hurt that year Subban would've had another monster season. When we started to lose though he really got beat up on. And on these very boards people went on and on about 'how he's supposed to be a superstar why can't he elevate the team to win?' It was pretty unfair in my view.

Obviously when you lose an elite goalie for essentially the entire year, your team is going to suffer. After the 15/16 season I did believe it was because of Price’s injury that we missed the playoffs and collapsed. But then the next season happened. It was almost a clone of the previous with Price healthy. We start off extremely hot and start to fall off in December again. The difference that year was we finally fired Therrien and salvaged the season. If I was to pin what the true problem was with those teams, I’d say it was the leadership group, management and Therrien. I don’t care how many goals Pacioretty scored either, he was also a problem the moment he was named captain in my opinion.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Obviously when you lose an elite goalie for essentially the entire year, your team is going to suffer. After the 15/16 season I did believe it was because of Price’s injury that we missed the playoffs and collapsed. But then the next season happened. It was almost a clone of the previous with Price healthy. We start off extremely hot and start to fall off in December again. The difference that year was we finally fired Therrien and salvaged the season. If I was to pin what the true problem was with those teams, I’d say it was the leadership group, management and Therrien. I don’t care how many goals Pacioretty scored either, he was also a problem the moment he was named captain in my opinion.

I never saw Max as a problem. The real problem for me was that we needed to get him a center and never did. Max was a great scorer but he's not good enough of a scorer to lead any team to a cup and MT insisted on putting him with DD. That absolutely killed us that year as well.

Subban made for a nice little scapegoat.

 

[admiralcadillac]

I never saw Max as a problem. The real problem for me was that we needed to get him a center and never did. Max was a great scorer but he's not good enough of a scorer to lead any team to a cup and MT insisted on putting him with DD. That absolutely killed us that year as well.

Subban made for a nice little scapegoat.

Pacioretty is not a guy who would benefit from a better center, especially considering DD just fed him the puck and was relatively good at it. I think this is a mistake to assume.

Subban made for a nice scapegoat? How?

What's clear is something was wrong with the room, and considering the look of this year it was clear that Maxpac wasn't contributing positively in any way.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Pacioretty is not a guy who would benefit from a better center, especially considering DD just fed him the puck and was relatively good at it. I think this is a mistake to assume.

ANY player would benefit from a better center.

Subban made for a nice scapegoat? How?

Because our coach made nonsensical decisions. When he finally put Galchenyuk (who was the only guy scoring for us all year) at first line center he became a top five scorer in the league and looked ridiculous. They needed to deflect the blame to somebody else.

What's clear is something was wrong with the room, and considering the look of this year it was clear that Maxpac wasn't contributing positively in any way.

Yes, something was wrong with the room. His name was Michel Therrien. It's like this wherever he goes.

 

[nhlfan9191]

I never saw Max as a problem. The real problem for me was that we needed to get him a center and never did. Max was a great scorer but he's not good enough of a scorer to lead any team to a cup and MT insisted on putting him with DD. That absolutely killed us that year as well.

Subban made for a nice little scapegoat.

I never liked Max’s intensity and I think it’s important for a leader to show that on the ice as it can rub off on the other players.

 

[BehindTheTimes]

ANY player would benefit from a better center.

Because our coach made nonsensical decisions. When he finally put Galchenyuk (who was the only guy scoring for us all year) at first line center he became a top five scorer in the league and looked ridiculous. They needed to deflect the blame to somebody else.

Yes, something was wrong with the room. His name was Michel Therrien. It's like this wherever he goes.

We'll always agree on this LG no matter whatever other disagreements we have. IMO, Michel Therrien might be the most destructive coach in NHL history, he is absolutely terrible and as bad as some of these old school GMs can be, I don't think even they will ever consider MT for a coaching gig.

 

[admiralcadillac]

ANY player would benefit from a better center.

Because our coach made nonsensical decisions. When he finally put Galchenyuk (who was the only guy scoring for us all year) at first line center he became a top five scorer in the league and looked ridiculous. They needed to deflect the blame to somebody else.

Yes, something was wrong with the room. His name was Michel Therrien. It's like this wherever he goes.

Was Michel there last year?

Galchenyuk was a top 5 scorer for a very short period. I'm sorry but as talented as the guy is let's not pretend like he was going to keep that up.

We're cynical with Drouin and Domi's paces yet when it comes to Galchenyuk he was clearly going to be an 80 point+ guy right?

Pacioretty IS playing with a better center, and he has played at different levels wiht better enters. HE's not the type of guy to really benefit from that as he just plays the same game. DD set him up all the time.