Confirmed with Link: The All Star/Jersey Retirement thread.

[Genesis76]

Markov’s jersey should be retired.

Saku and Subban are ahead of him

 

[Genesis76]

It's not the stats that matter though. What matters is how dominant those players were in their respective eras.

We have tons of HOF players who's jersey's haven't been retired. The HOF is the bare minimum for this honour and I don't even think Markov makes that.

The only player I think who has a shot at it going forward is Carey Price. PK Subban would've been another but we decided to deal him away. Koivu, Markov... they just don't cut it.

Thats crazy to think CP deserves to have his jersey retired let alone be the only one. Subban and Koivu are ahead and its not even close.

He has one good year and he never won a playoff round by himself....

Subban has 2 ecf appearances and was always a top scorer.

Are the habs trying to justify price’s salary by doing that?

 

[Shabs]

I think Markov deserves something especially given the way things ended. If not a jersey retirement, a section of the bell centre or something in his name or honouring him. He was a very very good Hab player for a long time. Maybe the best over that period of time. Winning Stanley cups and scoring points is much harder than when shutt played for example. That can’t be the sole measurement of retirement or hall of fame. What someone means to the franchise should also be considered. In today’s nhl it is rare for someone to play their whole career with one franchise. Otherwise, I can’t imagine another player meeting the bar in today’s nhl. Is no one deserving of consideration who played for the habs in the last quarter century?

 

[Habs]

... and his sister-in-law, too..... She was in love with him too.

That was the nanny, right?

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Thats crazy to think CP deserves to have his jersey retired let alone be the only one. Subban and Koivu are ahead and its not even close.

He has one good year and he never won a playoff round by himself....

Subban has 2 ecf appearances and was always a top scorer.

Are the habs trying to justify price’s salary by doing that?

Don't forget Halak...

I think Markov deserves something especially given the way things ended. If not a jersey retirement, a section of the bell centre or something in his name or honouring him. He was a very very good Hab player for a long time. Maybe the best over that period of time. Winning Stanley cups and scoring points is much harder than when shutt played for example. That can’t be the sole measurement of retirement or hall of fame. What someone means to the franchise should also be considered. In today’s nhl it is rare for someone to play their whole career with one franchise. Otherwise, I can’t imagine another player meeting the bar in today’s nhl. Is no one deserving of consideration who played for the habs in the last quarter century?

Look at Laperriere. He has six top five Norris finishes and another in the top ten. He also managed to actually win a Norris along the way. He spent his entire career in Montreal and is a HOFer. How can we honour Markov over that guy?

 

[peate]

Don't forget Halak...

Look at Laperriere. He has six top five Norris finishes and another in the top ten. He also managed to actually win a Norris along the way. He spent his entire career in Montreal and is a HOFer. How can we honour Markov over that guy?

Just guessing but, wasn't he also a Calder winner?

Yup just googled, 1963-64 season.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Just guessing but, wasn't he also a Calder winner?

Yup just googled, 1963-64 season.

Indeed he was.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

Standards for players now to get you into jersey retirement considerations for the Habs should be a cup minimum. If we were any other franchise in the league, I'd be lax on this rule but given our history and the guys that are already up in the rafters, it would only cheapen it.

Cheapen what??? Cups that were won in a very limited league?

You're a traditionalist and purist. There's no place for context with people like you. Just the cult of greatness (just plain numbers).

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

Don't forget Halak...

Look at Laperriere. He has six top five Norris finishes and another in the top ten. He also managed to actually win a Norris along the way. He spent his entire career in Montreal and is a HOFer. How can we honour Markov over that guy?

And how many dmen competed for the trophy in those years? 40? Did Markov have the same kinda team around him?

Context context context.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

And how many dmen competed for the trophy in those years? 40? Did Markov have the same kinda team around him?

Context context context.

That argument is valid for cups. It would be unfair of us to compare Lappierre's cups if he played in a six team league.

But it doesn't matter how many blueliners he's competing against if he's the best in the league. If McDavid is the best in the league now and Crosby's the 2nd best would that change if there were fewer teams? Of course not. The talent pool would just be that much higher. Every team would be packed with superstars.

Lapierre was one of the best two blueliners in the league for much of his career. It doesn't matter how many teams in the league there were. There could've been 50 teams and he'd still be the best. We can only look at how dominant a player was during his era.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

That argument is valid for cups. It would be unfair of us to compare Lappierre's cups if he played in a six team league.

But it doesn't matter how many blueliners he's competing against if he's the best in the league. If McDavid is the best in the league now and Crosby's the 2nd best would that change if there were fewer teams? Of course not.

Facepalm.

You were talking of his nominations, not Norris wins.

It's the same logic. Landing in the top ten for Norris votes out of 200 players is a lot harder than doing it out of 40. And you still ommit the difference in teams they were on. It is also harder to make it when the team around you is total ****.

Were Markov drafted by Detroit, he'd be a lock for the HHOF.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Facepalm.

You were talking of his nominations, not Norris wins.

It's the same logic. Landing in the top ten for Norris votes out of 200 players is a lot harder than doing it out of 40. And you still ommit the difference in teams they were on. It is also harder to make it when the team around you is total ****.

No it's not.

You can have a league of 20000 players. McDavid will still be number one. His point totals will just go up because the league will be watered down.

Were Markov drafted by Detroit, he'd be a lock for the HHOF.

Sure, but you could say that for a lot of players. Carey Price has played for crap teams too, so did PK Subban. They still managed to win individual awards and dominate the league for stretches at a time. Imagine if they were on powerhouse teams.

I'd absolutely be willing to give players the benefit of the doubt playing on poor teams. It's a factor for sure. But you still have to be able to dominate and have something to show for it. Markov has those two seasons and only one other where he's even top 15. If we were comparing say Gary Suter vs Markov you could point out that Suter was on powerhouse teams and had an advantage and you'd be absolutely right. But neither one of them is HOF worthy...

I don't care that he didn't win a cup. He played on crappy teams. But he doesn't have a HOF resume regardless.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

No it's not.

You can have a league of 20000 players. McDavid will still be number one. His point totals will just go up because the league will be watered down.

Sure, but you could say that for a lot of players. Carey Price has played for crap teams too, so did PK Subban. They still managed to win individual awards and dominate the league for stretches at a time. Imagine if they were on powerhouse teams.

I'd absolutely be willing to give players the benefit of the doubt playing on poor teams. It's a factor for sure. But you still have to be able to dominate and have something to show for it. Markov has those two seasons and only one other where he's even top 15. If we were comparing say Gary Suter vs Markov you could point out that Suter was on powerhouse teams and had an advantage and you'd be absolutely right. But neither one of them is HOF worthy...

I don't care that he didn't win a cup. He played on crappy teams. But he doesn't have a HOF resume regardless.

Sigh. You're still using the #1 as an example. As if only the number 1 player gets recognition. AND AGAIN YOU WERE REFERENCING NOMINATIONS NOT WINS.

Being 5th out of 20000 is more impressive than 1st out of 40.

You really really don't understand the statistical significance of the difference.

You keep ommiting to contextualize the team differences and how it impacts perception.

Just keep pounding that #1 nail though.

I finished top 500 out of 3 million in GTA4 deathmatches.

I finished 3rd out of 30000 in hitman sniper challenge.

Which one do you think im most proud of??

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Sigh. You're still using the #1 as an example. As if only the number 1 player gets recognition. AND AGAIN YOU WERE REFERENCING NOMINATIONS NOT WINS.

Being 5th out of 20000 is more impressive than 1st out of 40.

You really really don't understand the statistical significance of the difference.

You keep ommiting to contextualize the team differences and how it impacts perception.

Just keep pounding that #1 nail though.

Dude... why are you getting upset here?

And how is being 5th out of 20,000 more impressive than 40? We aren't talking about GTA deathmatches... Again, if you only had six teams in the league right now the competition would be absolutely fierce. Every night you'd face one of the six best goalies in the world, you'd face off against the best centers... guys like Max Domi might not even make it into the league. McDavid is the best in the world. Period. That doesn't change no matter how many hockey teams there are or how many players there are. If you have 20,000 players you're going to be playing against AHLers. Is that more impressive to come in ahead of them?

And I don't get your nomination vs win argument... you don't actually have to win the Norris for it to be considered a great season. You could be a Norris nominee five times over, never win the award but still have a HOF career. Brad Park is a good example of this.

Again, Markov only has two top ten finishes. None in the top five. If he were top 10 in several seasons then it would be a different story.

 

[Habs]

I finished top 500 out of 3 million in GTA4 deathmatches.

I finished 3rd out of 30000 in hitman sniper challenge.

Which one do you think im most proud of??

I suck at the hitman challenge.

 

[nhlfan9191]

Thats crazy to think CP deserves to have his jersey retired let alone be the only one. Subban and Koivu are ahead and its not even close.

He has one good year and he never won a playoff round by himself....

Subban has 2 ecf appearances and was always a top scorer.

Are the habs trying to justify price’s salary by doing that?

Subban and Koivu aren’t even close to Price. Subban and Koivu will never get their jersey’s retired, and Price will depend on how far he separates himself from Plante for Career wins as a Hab.

 

[The Great Weal]

So no Habs are going?

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

Dude... why are you getting upset here?

And how is being 5th out of 20,000 more impressive than 40? We aren't talking about GTA deathmatches... Again, if you only had six teams in the league right now the competition would be absolutely fierce. Every night you'd face one of the six best goalies in the world, you'd face off against the best centers... guys like Max Domi might not even make it into the league. McDavid is the best in the world. Period. That doesn't change no matter how many hockey teams there are or how many players there are. If you have 20,000 players you're going to be playing against AHLers. Is that more impressive to come in ahead of them?

And I don't get your nomination vs win argument... you don't actually have to win the Norris for it to be considered a great season. You could be a Norris nominee five times over, never win the award but still have a HOF career. Brad Park is a good example of this.

Again, Markov only has two top ten finishes. None in the top five. If he were top 10 in several seasons then it would be a different story.

And still he's second alltime on the Habs for dmen, would be first without his injuries.

Lifetime achievements are a thing y'know. Not just the year per year dominance.

Anyway, time will tell if i'm right.

The more the years will go buy, the more perceptions will change and include this new reality where cup winners are fewer in a greater league. Trophy wins are much harder out of a greater league. Lifetime consistency will become a new standard.

 

[Genesis76]

Subban and Koivu aren’t even close to Price. Subban and Koivu will never get their jersey’s retired, and Price will depend on how far he separates himself from Plante for Career wins as a Hab.

He has the most losses too. His win ratio is atrocious.

I guess we live in a world of favouritism and "chouchoutage" and instead of fighting againts it we're promoting and encouraging it.

It's discusting.

 

[Saundies]

Cheapen what??? Cups that were won in a very limited league?

You're a traditionalist and purist. There's no place for context with people like you. Just the cult of greatness (just plain numbers).

There's plenty of places for context, just not in Montreal. I have no problem with an organization like Toronto retiring ("honoring", whatever dumb word they use to describe it) Sundin's number when he didn't win a cup with them. The Canucks retiring the Sedins numbers is the same thing. They had a profound impact on the franchise and the history of the franchises at large.

It's different here. Guys we're mentioning: Koivu, Subban, Markov, even Price.. what impact have they had on the Habs organization at large that it would be impossible to see someone else wear their number and do it justice? Is it really that weird seeing Gallagher skate around with 11 on every night? Is it inconceivable that someone like Josh Brook could pick 79 and it would be blasphemy?

To me, no. We have the most retired numbers in the league, we don't need to add to it until someone comes along and truly earns it. If I were to ask you if Sidney Crosby or Jonathan Toews deserves to have their jerseys retired when they're done, would you argue with me or would it be a slam dunk? That's how all jersey retirements should be. It shouldn't be "weeeeeellll... in this CONTEXT" it should be "absolutely."

 

[Toene]

The Plante win record argument doesn't do much for me. As Genesis pointed out, his win percentage is way higher than Price. Career save percentage is better too (.920 vs .918)and I dont see Price raising his SV% that much in the rest of his career. Also, Plante never had the OT to boost his wins. There is also the fact that seasons were shorter but this point doesn't affect the comparison that much because Plante played a lot of games per season (he has a couple 65+ GP seasons). Plante has also a ridiculous 7 Vezinas, a record. 6 Stanley Cups.

Plante is a Hall of Famer and arguably the best goaltender of all-time. Price? Hall of Very Good for me, tops.

 

[nhlfan9191]

He has the most losses too. His win ratio is atrocious.

I guess we live in a world of favouritism and "chouchoutage" and instead of fighting againts it we're promoting and encouraging it.

It's discusting.

I don’t know why your panties are in a twist over what I said. Price has a chance to be far and away the wins and games played leader for this franchise which is why I said it depends on how far he separates himself from Plante. The fact he has the most losses is a different argument. That’s not “favouritism.” Subban spent 6 seasons here and didn’t win as much as Price yet but you have him ahead. That’s favouritism and bias against Price.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

So no Habs are going?

Doesn't look like it.

 

[Belial]

So no Habs are going?

Doesn't look like it.

 

[Kairi Zaide]

Sigh. You're still using the #1 as an example. As if only the number 1 player gets recognition. AND AGAIN YOU WERE REFERENCING NOMINATIONS NOT WINS.

Being 5th out of 20000 is more impressive than 1st out of 40.

You really really don't understand the statistical significance of the difference.

You keep ommiting to contextualize the team differences and how it impacts perception.

Just keep pounding that #1 nail though.

I finished top 500 out of 3 million in GTA4 deathmatches.

I finished 3rd out of 30000 in hitman sniper challenge.

Which one do you think im most proud of??

Assume two populations:
- A : people superelite at Thing with a population of n = nA
- B : people elite at Thing with a population of n = nB
Such that A and B are mutually exclusive. And such that nB >10*nA. The skill level (higher the better) at Thing of individuals in each population follows a normal distribution with the following properties :
- A : mean of mA, standard deviation of sA
- B : mean of mB, standard deviation of sB
Such that mA > mB + 2*sB and such that sA < sB.

Is finishing 5th amongst a population A (nA individuals) less impressive than finishing 10th amongst a population A+B (over 10*nA individuals) ?