Confirmed with Link: The All Star/Jersey Retirement thread.

[Lafleurs Guy]

And still he's second alltime on the Habs for dmen, would be first without his injuries.

That's the best argument he can make. It's a legit argument but again, you have to also look at era. In Lappierre's era for example blueliners didn't score anywhere near the rate they did today. Vs his contemporaries Markov over the course of his entire career (and we're cherrycking by doing this) was the 5th highest scoring blueliner of his time. That is really good and he just might eek into the HOF based on that despite the lack of All-Star selections and Norris votes.

And if he did make the HOF the advantage he'd have for jersey retirement would be the fact that he did spend that entire time in Montreal.

Lifetime achievements are a thing y'know. Not just the year per year dominance.

Okay but year by year dominance counts too. And I don't hold a Norris win as the standard for this either. Top ten finishes are still very good. The problem Markov has is that he's only got two of those and none in the top five.

To go back to the earlier argument you made - Price has only had one good season - well if that's true then Markov has had no good seasons... Doesn't make sense right?

Anyway, time will tell if i'm right.

The more the years will go buy, the more perceptions will change and include this new reality where cup winners are fewer in a greater league. Trophy wins are much harder out of a greater league. Lifetime consistency will become a new standard.

The bar for the HOF in hockey is already low. Guys like Bernie Federko and Cam Neely never should've been inducted. So Markov may get in... if he does, then I think his odds of jersey retirement go way up. But I don't think he's going to make the HOF. His inclusion there would really open the door to guys like Suter and Numinen.... and I don't think they belong either.

 

[groovejuice]

Markov's record standings :

All Positions:
Games played - 6
Assists - 6
Goals on ice for - 6
PP Goals in ice for - 3
Expected +/- 10 (only Dman)

Defencemen Only:

Points - 2
Goals - 3
Assists - 2
Games Played - 2

These are extraordinary stats, especially considering his injuries. Also not his fault he played for some terrible coaches and GMs.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

It's for the best. Gallagher, Price, Weber... they're all banged up. The only guy who I'd have really been okay/happy to see go would be Domi. He's young, never been and he's had a great year. He'd be worthy of inclusion this year.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Markov's record standings :

All Positions:
Games played - 6
Assists - 6
Goals on ice for - 6
PP Goals in ice for - 3
Expected +/- 10 (only Dman)

Defencemen Only:

Points - 2
Goals - 3
Assists - 2
Games Played - 2

These are extraordinary stats, especially considering his injuries. Also not his fault he played for some terrible coaches and GMs.

His offensive production is very good. And he came back after a crazy injury and played as well as he ever did. I still don't like the idea of putting him in without a HOF nod though.

Is he more worthy than Lapierre in your opinion?

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

Assume two populations:
- A : people superelite at Thing with a population of n = nA
- B : people elite at Thing with a population of n = nB
Such that A and B are mutually exclusive. And such that nB >10*nA. The skill level (higher the better) at Thing of individuals in each population follows a normal distribution with the following properties :
- A : mean of mA, standard deviation of sA
- B : mean of mB, standard deviation of sB
Such that mA > mB + 2*sB and such that sA < sB.

Is finishing 5th amongst a population A (nA individuals) less impressive than finishing 10th amongst a population A+B (over 10*nA individuals) ?

You can't even compare output from those periods because the dynamics were conpletely different, how can you determine A & B?

Also, consider that the players remembered from those era comprise a good chunk of the entire pool of players at the time. The 20 best players in the league represented 1 out of 6 players. It's 20 out of 120. How can even compare A and B then? How is the B from then even close to the B of today when the 20 best represent 20 out 720 players. That's 1 out of 36.

And in the end, historically, there have been 2000+ dmen in the history of the NHL and Markov is top 40 for points. 2nd out of a 100 (reduced). Dont know the historical number of Ds on the Habs, but there again, 2nd.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

Markov's record standings :

All Positions:
Games played - 6
Assists - 6
Goals on ice for - 6
PP Goals in ice for - 3
Expected +/- 10 (only Dman)

Defencemen Only:

Points - 2
Goals - 3
Assists - 2
Games Played - 2

These are extraordinary stats, especially considering his injuries. Also not his fault he played for some terrible coaches and GMs.

And teams

And league wide, 43rd among 2000+ dmen all-time.
3rd among all russian dmen

 

[Genesis76]

I don’t know why your panties are in a twist over what I said. Price has a chance to be far and away the wins and games played leader for this franchise which is why I said it depends on how far he separates himself from Plante. The fact he has the most losses is a different argument. That’s not “favouritism.” Subban spent 6 seasons here and didn’t win as much as Price yet but you have him ahead. That’s favouritism and bias against Price.

Subban was a top league performer every year he was with us. 7 straight years and he never had a down year. As soon as he left the team went down.

Price is still here and the team is struggling, he’s clearly not someone to think of for jersey retirement. Only some one with an agenda would suggest something of such.

Like tell me honestly you really see Price’s 31 next to Roy’s 33 and Richard’s number 9 ??

Come on man lets be real

 

[groovejuice]

His offensive production is very good. And he came back after a crazy injury and played as well as he ever did. I still don't like the idea of putting him in without a HOF nod though.

Is he more worthy than Lapierre in your opinion?

You mean Laperriere? It's hard to compare the eras, but it's probably close. His 6 Cups are in no small part a function of the 6 team league and the tremendous teams he played for.

Even if they're both borderline, I retire the numbers as a sign of well earned respect and gratefulness. The fact that is took so long for Guy Lapointe speaks volumes about the conservatism and politics involved.

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

While we're at it, i know im not alone in this, but it'd be really great if PK could come back more mature to end his career and maybe one day retire his jersey if he can win the cup with the new crop.

 

[nhlfan9191]

Subban was a top league performer every year he was with us. 7 straight years and he never had a down year. As soon as he left the team went down.

Price is still here and the team is struggling, he’s clearly not someone to think of for jersey retirement. Only some one with an agenda would suggest something of such.

Like tell me honestly you really see Price’s 31 next to Roy’s 33 and Richard’s number 9 ??

Come on man lets be real

2012 and 2016 were not good seasons for Subban. But that’s besides the point. We don’t know how the club will handle players who haven’t won a cup because it hasn’t happened yet. And it seems like this team could be waiting awhile before we ever do. Depending on how long it goes on for, they’ll either have to change how to evaluate players or not consider them at all. If they do start including players who haven’t won a cup, a goalie with 400+ wins with the team will be at the top of the list.

 

[Genesis76]

2012 and 2016 were not good seasons for Subban. But that’s besides the point. We don’t know how the club will handle players who haven’t won a cup because it hasn’t happened yet. And it seems like this team could be waiting awhile before we ever do. Depending on how long it goes on for, they’ll either have to change how to evaluate players or not consider them at all. If they do start including players who haven’t won a cup, a goalie with 400+ wins with the team will be at the top of the list.

It depends 400+ wins with 400+ losses, will that still be at the top you think

 

[Grate n Colorful Oz]

You mean Laperriere? It's hard to compare the eras, but it's probably close. His 6 Cups are in no small part a function of the 6 team league and the tremendous teams he played for.

Even if they're both borderline, I retire the numbers as a sign of well earned respect and gratefulness. The fact that is took so long for Guy Lapointe speaks volumes about the conservatism and politics involved.

Nothing is static. Everything eventually changes. It's time. It's evolutionary pressures.

I don't believe for one second that this mentality will keep hold forever.

Like I said in another post, in 10 years from now, we'll be 35 years out of a serious candidate with the standards of the past.

 

[nhlfan9191]

It depends 400+ wins with 400+ losses, will that still be at the top you think

Had Curtis Joesph played his entire career with one team, I’m pretty sure he would’ve had his jersey retired with that team. So yes, as long as he stays 50 or so games above .500, then yes. This conversation is premature. He’s still has to much racetrack left.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

While we're at it, i know im not alone in this, but it'd be really great if PK could come back more mature to end his career and maybe one day retire his jersey if he can win the cup with the new crop.

Repeat of my old post... would be great to see a triple low five again. Esp if we've won the cup.

As for Subban being retired, see Chris Chelios... In both cases we were robbed of franchise blueliners who should've played out their careers here. Subban's career is similar to Price's. Good numbers over a long time on bad teams with some award noms to go with it. Jury's out on both players in terms of HOF (they're midway through their careers right now) and it's too soon to say. But smart money says both are HOFers by the time it's all over. Price will probably be retired and PK will not. I'd absolutely love to see Subban return someday though. That would just be so awesome.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Subban was a top league performer every year he was with us. 7 straight years and he never had a down year. As soon as he left the team went down.

Price is still here and the team is struggling, he’s clearly not someone to think of for jersey retirement. Only some one with an agenda would suggest something of such.

Like tell me honestly you really see Price’s 31 next to Roy’s 33 and Richard’s number 9 ??

Come on man lets be real

Yes, I think he'll get there. But he's not there yet.

 

[Genesis76]

Had Curtis Joesph played his entire career with one team, I’m pretty sure he would’ve had his jersey retired with that team. So yes, as long as he stays 50 or so games above .500, then yes. This conversation is premature. He’s still has to much racetrack left.

Curtis Joseph never played for the canadiens.

Total number of wins means absolutly nothing.

Jaque plate has a ratio of almost 3 to 1

Price has no business there. Unless he wins a cup

 

[Genesis76]

Yes, I think he'll get there. But he's not there yet. As for Subban, see Chris Chelios...

The question is if you think he deserves it.

So they want to reture his jersey?
Why?

 

[NeptunesTrident]

Saku Koivu; not so much for what he did on the ice but for how he persevered through cancer and raised a boatload of money for Montreal General to get better oncology equipment. When Montreal gave him an evening and painting and didn't retire his number, PK, Price, Markov, Gallagher etc got their answer. Now if Price was to win a Cup and possibly 500 wins, then I could see it. But no Cups=no jersey retirement.

 

[Milhouse40]

Curtis Joseph never played for the canadiens.

Total number of wins means absolutly nothing.

Jaque plate has a ratio of almost 3 to 1

Price has no business there. Unless he wins a cup

Price got another 8 years in this league and it took at least another 10 years before a team even think about retiring a jersey.I know you like to find any reasons possible to crap on the guy, but FFS you're 18 years in advance on that one.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

The question is if you think he deserves it.

So they want to reture his jersey?
Why?

The question is premature. Unlike Markov who's career is over, Price is not done his career yet.

I think both Subban and Price both will go to the HOF. And I think Price's jersey will be retired by the time it's all over. I think Subban would've as well but he wasn't here long enough. He's like Chelios.

 

[Genesis76]

Price got another 8 years in this league and it took at least another 10 years before a team even think about retiring a jersey.I know you like to find any reasons possible to crap on the guy, but FFS you're 18 years in advance on that one.

Some one suggested he deserves to have his jersey retired first. You should tell him that.

 

[Genesis76]

The question is premature. Unlike Markov who's career is over, Price is not done his career yet.

I think both Subban and Price both will go to the HOF. And I think Price's jersey will be retired by the time it's all over. I think Subban would've as well but he wasn't here long enough. He's like Chelios.

Actually you’re the one who brought the question up first and now you’re telling us its premature. As a mod you do your job amazingly but as a poster you clearly have an agenda.

Subban’s path to the Hof is already paved.
Price’s is uncertain.

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Some one suggested he deserves to have his jersey retired first. You should tell him that.

Nobody has said this.

Actually you’re the one who brought the question up first and now you’re telling us its premature.

You are reading what you want to read...

What I said was that the only player who I can see having a shot at having his jersey retired is Carey Price. I don't think Koivu or Markov are worthy. Subban's not going to do it. As I said earlier, if Price doesn't get his jersey retired then I don't think we're going to see anyone retired over a very long time.

So once again to be clear... I think Price is going to get there but I don't think he's there yet. And I don't think we're going to see anyone else get it. Only way this would change is if Markov makes the HOF. I don't think he will but if he does, then I can see the team doing it. His team numbers are a good argument for inclusion from that standpoint but I think the minimum bar has to be the HOF.

 

[Genesis76]

Nobody has said this.

You are reading what you want to read...

What I said was that the only player who I can see having a shot at having his jersey retired is Carey Price. I don't think Koivu or Markov are worthy. Subban's not going to do it. As I said earlier, if Price doesn't get his jersey retired then I don't think we're going to see anyone retired over a very long time.

So once again to be clear... I think Price is going to get there but I don't think he's there yet. And I don't think we're going to see anyone else get it. Only way this would change is if Markov makes the HOF. I don't think he will but if he does, then I can see the team doing it. His team numbers are a good argument for inclusion from that standpoint but I think the minimum bar has to be the HOF.

But assuming his career ends today, do you think he deserves it?

 

[Lafleurs Guy]

Markov's record standings :

All Positions:
Games played - 6
Assists - 6
Goals on ice for - 6
PP Goals in ice for - 3
Expected +/- 10 (only Dman)

Defencemen Only:

Points - 2
Goals - 3
Assists - 2
Games Played - 2

These are extraordinary stats, especially considering his injuries. Also not his fault he played for some terrible coaches and GMs.

This seems to be a common refrain for all of our players after about 1995.