Pre-Game Talk: The All-Purpose Mike Sullivan Thread - ALL COMMENTS AND COMPLAINTS HERE

[Pancakes]

Why do the players deserve 0% of the blame? Hell, I think the players not playing to their abilities is the biggest reason for the Penguins struggles this year. It's not JR or Sullivan's fault that Malkin doesn't have an ES goal since before Halloween. It's not JR or Sullivan's fault that Brassard has been a ghost here. It's not JR or Sullivan's fault that Rust fell off a cliff as soon as he got an extension. It's not JR and Sullivan's fault that Murray fell off a cliff as soon as Fleury left.

Rutherford deserves blame for the structure of the defense and somewhat for the bottom-6 forwards (the bottom-6 shouldn't be bad on paper). Sullivan deserves blame for the systematic problems that have plagued the team and making poor lineup decisions. That doesn't add up to 100% of the blame. I have it 50% on the players and 25% each for Sullivan and JR.

Yeah but Malkin/Crosby/Kessel are all over a PPG on the year. Letang has been good also.

When the depth, defense, and goaltending is the reason we're losing I'm inclined to pin these troubles at JR's feet. This isn't a case where Mike Johnston turned Sid into a 50 point player or our stars had quit on Sully. This is a case of the stars actually performing quite well (overall - obviously as you noted there have been some stretches of poor play) and us still losing.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Yeah but Malkin/Crosby/Kessel are all over a PPG on the year. Letang has been good also.

When the depth, defense, and goaltending is the reason we're losing I'm inclined to pin these troubles at JR's feet. This isn't a case where Mike Johnston turned Sid into a 50 point player or our stars had quit on Sully. This is a case of the stars actually performing quite well (overall - obviously as you noted there have been some stretches of poor play) and us still losing.

But the thing is that it's not from the Penguins having bad depth players, it's just those players aren't performing to the levels they should be playing at. I don't think it's reasonable to criticize JR or Sullivan for guys like Brassard, Rust and Murray struggling, because those guys are supposed to be good and they're just not playing well.

 

[Gurglesons]

But the thing is that it's not from the Penguins having bad depth players, it's just those players aren't performing to the levels they should be playing at. I don't think it's reasonable to criticize JR or Sullivan for guys like Brassard, Rust and Murray struggling, because those guys are supposed to be good and they're just not playing well.

Then JR needs to make adjustments. I’d understand if we were flirting with a wild card, but we are out of the playoff picture.

If this roster is a “playoff contender” he should treat it as such. Otherwise the blame is at his feet for what a shitshow the D is.

Honesty, our forward depth isn’t as bad as people want to make it.

 

[Pancakes]

But the thing is that it's not from the Penguins having bad depth players, it's just those players aren't performing to the levels they should be playing at. I don't think it's reasonable to criticize JR or Sullivan for guys like Brassard, Rust and Murray struggling, because those guys are supposed to be good and they're just not playing well.

I'll give you those three, but I think it's entirely reasonable to expect the rest of our depth (JJ/Oleksiak etc etc) to be mediocre to bad because they're just not that good as hockey players.

Now, if Rust and Brassard and Murray were playing the way they can, perhaps it wouldn't matter how mediocre the rest of our depth is. So I'll give you that.

But it says a lot about how bad our depth has been that we're bad despite our stars producing. And you do have to wonder how much Murray being bad has to do with the defense JR put in front of him. Would Murray be leaking goals like this if he was on a more defensively sound team? Or is it the case that a goalie with fragile confidence had that confidence shattered even more by the horrid defensive play in front of him? I dunno. It's the Maf argument all over again I guess.

 

[Pancakes]

Then JR needs to make adjustments. I’d understand if we were flirting with a wild card, but we are out of the playoff picture.

If this roster is a “playoff contender” he should treat it as such. Otherwise the blame is at his feet for what a ****show the D is.

Honesty, our forward depth isn’t as bad as people want to make it.

Despite the struggles of some guys we're still 9th in GF/game. Our biggest problem is we can't keep pucks out of our net. And people wonder why Sullivan wouldn't play Sprong.

 

[Empoleon8771]

Then JR needs to make adjustments. I’d understand if we were flirting with a wild card, but we are out of the playoff picture.

If this roster is a “playoff contender” he should treat it as such. Otherwise the blame is at his feet for what a ****show the D is.

Honesty, our forward depth isn’t as bad as people want to make it.

I do blame him for the defense, don't get me wrong. I completely blame him for the structure of the D. I just don't blame him for the goaltending or depth forward problems.

 

[Gurglesons]

I do blame him for the defense, don't get me wrong. I completely blame him for the structure of the D. I just don't blame him for the goaltending or depth forward problems.

Oh. Yeah, I think the forward line-up is more on Brassard, Rust and Kessel and Sullivan.

It’s weird we either have an aces top line and a solid fourth line like now or earlier in the season when we had Cullen - Sheahan - Hornqvist and Hags - Malkin - Kessel. Or we have weird fits all over the line-up..

I do think JR should have gotten a vet goalie for Murray. Halak would’ve been perfect imo.

 

[EliteGoaltending]

The Pens are not a fast team anymore but they try to play (still) like they are...there's both roster makeup and systemic problems with this...It's not for lack of trying by the players...they are not as good at doing what's needed to be successful in today's NHL and matchup with teams like COL...yes, there are players that aren't playing up to their potential, but that happens with most teams every year...the only player that does that where it has a SIGNIFICANT impact on the wins-losses is the goaltender...so Murray being well below what he needs to be is the signal biggest player factor in the Pens problems to date...otherwise it's a combination of roster (older, stupid, slower, which is not necessarily foot speed) and a system that hasn't addressed the realities of this roster...for example, Sully tries to insulate the defense/goaltending by playing a soft zone, which has some negative effect on transition offense...however, maybe we should be trying to be more offensive given the problems...why not try to play aggressive pressure D and take the body, thereby forcing more TOs and see if our skill can find a way to translate those into goals like we did in 2017? Just asking, because people who defend Sully want to know what he can do...there's something else to try

To think about it...Pearson, ZAR and Hornqvist are all really slow. And all are playing in top 9, including two of them on the same line.

So forecheck and breakouts are already problems for 2nd and 3rd lines, plus they don't have Dumo-Letang behind them.
But Sullivan continues to run the same lines and same systems, and then people complaining about players lol.
(No wonder there mostly Sid fans among Sully's apologists on here, because he's one player on the team Sully doesn't screw over and on the contrary does everything to help him).

Effort from the players is there and they do what they can do right now. (I haven't seen the Flyers game tho). Bad coaching and bad fits on wing are problems on forward.

 

[Empoleon8771]

To think about it...Pearson, ZAR and Hornqvist are all really slow. And all are playing in top 9, including two of them on the same line.

Pearson really slow? What are you talking about? ZAR is slow and Hornqvist is just an okay skater, but Pearson is a good skater. How can you possibly say he's slow?

 

[Turin]

But the thing is that it's not from the Penguins having bad depth players, it's just those players aren't performing to the levels they should be playing at. I don't think it's reasonable to criticize JR or Sullivan for guys like Brassard, Rust and Murray struggling, because those guys are supposed to be good and they're just not playing well.

The D is bad and that’s on JR.

 

[EliteGoaltending]

Pearson really slow? What are you talking about? ZAR is slow and Hornqvist is just an okay skater, but Pearson is a good skater. How can you possibly say he's slow?

Just like that.
Because he's slow. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Everything in this world is relative. He might be fast compared to some. But on this team, he, ZAR and Hornqvist are the slowest wingers, at least to my eyes.
And I don't questioning his effort or the effort of other two mentioned, it just who they are.

At center, outside of Sid, we don't really have very fast skaters either. But speed on wing is more critical.

 

[cheesedanish87]

I put blame on Sully early in the year when i thought the team was going through the motions far to often

But recently i think the pens have played hard and played pretty well for the most part.

The reason they are playing better and still not getting wins is because we don't have a number 1 goalie and we only have 2 top 4 def.

I can't blame Sully for that.

 

[Gurglesons]

Just like that.
Because he's slow. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯

Everything in this world is relative. He might be fast compared to some. But on this team, he, ZAR and Hornqvist are the slowest wingers, at least to my eyes.
And I don't questioning his effort or the effort of other two mentioned, it just who they are.

At center, outside of Sid, we don't really have very fast skaters either. But speed on wing is more critical.

Pearson is probably the fastest player on our team after Rust

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Pearson is probably the fastest player on our team after Rust

I mean, Pearson is quick, but he's not faster than Riikola, Letang, Crosby, and Simon.

 

[vodeni]

Pearson is probably the fastest player on our team after Rust

really? then we are one slow motherf..... hockey club

 

[Tom Hanks]

I mean, Pearson is quick, but he's not faster than Riikola, Letang, Crosby, and Simon.

Interesting you put Simon there. I think he’s slightly above average in speed.

Phil’s fast.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

Interesting you put Simon there. I think he’s slightly above average in speed.

Phil’s fast.

Well, Simon is shifty, he's very good at weaving around, but in straight away speed, he is not a guy that maintains speed, he accellerates fast, but his top end isn't that high.

Guys that have that extra gear are guys like Kessel, Crosby, Letang, Riikola, and a few others. I never thought Pearson was slow even in LA, he just had to play slow given that team's style. When you look at LA, even a guy like Kempe is playing slow and that guy is a burner, even Hagelin wasn't zooming around before his injury, that team plays such a slow game that you are deceived into thinking so many are not quick when they are.

Pearson has that shiftiness like Simon, but a better top end speed, not by much though.

 

[BHD]

This is from Wilson's latest article...

I don't believe Sullivan has done a great job of putting players in positions to succeed recently. I think he harps too much on the negatives instead of embracing the positives. He needs to realize the kind of roster he has been given.

Couldn't have said it better myself.

 

[Pete Gas]

If the pens would of lost blowing that 3 goal lead I would of guessed that Sullivan would of been fired today

 

[Pens x]

If the pens would of lost blowing that 3 goal lead I would of guessed that Sullivan would of been fired today

There’s no chance he would have been fired had they blown that. Rutherford continues to buy Sullivan time with these small, lateral trades. But but but the new guys just need more time to learn the “system.”

 

[Empoleon8771]

I'm not even remotely surprised that Sprong scored in his first game with the Ducks, the only things that are more predictable that the Penguins would get at least 1 injury to their top-9 RWers and Sprong scoring against the Penguins. People will chalk up that goal to Sprong finally being given a chance, but that's not even a goal that was due to who he was playing with. That was Sprong actually giving an effort, that's a goal he could have scored while playing on a 4th line.

I feel like Sprong probably checked out mentally after the first few games of the season, which certainly matches the quotes he gave to the media and what effort level he seemingly had when he was in the lineup. The Sprong that Anaheim got yesterday wasn't due to him actually playing with some skilled players, that looked like a Sprong that was actually engaged in the game. The Penguins didn't get that with him a majority of the time, let's see if he can keep it up with Anaheim.

 

[Peat]

This is from Wilson's latest article...



Couldn't have said it better myself.

What and who, other than Sprong and Riikola, are the positives of this roster that Sully is failing to embrace/players who haven't been put in a position to succeed?

But the thing is that it's not from the Penguins having bad depth players, it's just those players aren't performing to the levels they should be playing at. I don't think it's reasonable to criticize JR or Sullivan for guys like Brassard, Rust and Murray struggling, because those guys are supposed to be good and they're just not playing well.

If the GM and coach have no responsibility for the form of their players, then I have to ask what exactly their responsibilities are.

Sure, they don't hold total responsibility. I'm not sure they should even cop half the blame here. But some of it has to rest on them. Particularly Sullivan. He can't turn around every player, but he's got to be able to turn some of them around.

 

[Honour Over Glory]

This is from Wilson's latest article...



Couldn't have said it better myself.

It's the truth.

How do you expect any sort of chemistry or cohesiveness when you shift the lines so much that you're basically doing everything in your power to actually negate any chemistry we could see within the line-up.

Also, this part you should have kept in your quote...

This is only my own speculation, but if part of this Kessel trade talk has to do with Mike Sullivan getting frustrated with Kessel I would be more worried about the coach than the player. Sullivan seems to be having issues with certain players that can't get out of his dog house (Sprong, Cole, potentially Kessel).

HockeyBuzz.com - Ryan Wilson - Penguins testing the market with Phil Kessel

Outside of the 2015-16 season when the team was firing on all cylinders the Penguins really haven't been great. They've been average to good and sometimes worse. His path has a lot of similarities to Dan Bylsma. The Penguins success has largely been PDO infused and has leaned heavily on the star players to perform at a high level.

I mean...I hate to say I told you so for the Sully supporters.

 

[Empoleon8771]

If you really think a Ryan Wilson is a "I told you so" source about Mike Sullivan, I really don't know what to tell you. Ryan Wilson is a clown, I don't know why anyone takes his opinion seriously. He pretty much completely ignores things like context in that article, which seems to be about par the course with what he does. The dude looks at spreadsheets and nothing else, he's the exact problem that comes from the modern day advanced stat watcher.

I really don't get how Wilson concludes that the Penguins being "average to good and sometimes worse" shows that Sullivan is going down DB's path. If anything, you can conclude that the Penguins have had problems on their roster in the 2+ seasons since the 2016 cup win, which anyone with eyes could tell you. That's a Rutherford problem, not a Sullivan problem. I think pretty much everyone agrees that the defense in the last 3 years has been extremely poorly constructed with a lack of puck movers and skaters, which I'd be willing to bet is the root of these mediocre possession stats. I feel like the stats showing that the Penguins haven't been that good since their 2016 cup win is an argument to moving Kessel, if anything. Your roster has been flawed for years, and even with Kessel being an excellent player, he's also a flawed player that doesn't really mesh well with either Crosby or Malkin. Kessel is the guy you can trade that completely (or really close to completely) fixes the issues with your defense.

Bylsma's problems also weren't a lack of regular season success, it was that the team constantly flopped in the playoffs. That team was a fantastic regular season team every single year, citing a Bylsma comparison is just a buzzword used to rile up Penguins fans. The only similarities between the two are that both had success early and both are stubborn, that's really the extent of the comparisons.

 

[Turin]

Ignoring context is lit. 2017 they had Dumoulin-Hainsey as the first pair. No doubt Ryan Wilson views this season as a bust since he looks at Corsi in a vacuum. Damn Mike Sullivan for not getting the most pedestrian d core to ever win a Cup to dominate shot metrics.

Next season in 2018 the possession stats shoot back up but the team is fatigued/Letang is back but often terrible, the goaltending is inconsistent, they lost some key vets and they still give the eventual champs the best competition they faced. But let’s just paint over history with whatever colour our agenda is today.